bubblypop wrote: » 'And it does really annoy me that if it was me brandishing a knife at Gardai the other day I would not be shot at all, but because the guy was black it happened and people think it was justified...' Sorry now, but you are completely wrong here. Every incident is unique and they must be assessed by the members at the scene and dealt with by those members, in whatever way they feel is justified at the time. I will not have you suggesting that gardai are racist.
Vieira82 wrote: » OH MAN! I actually hoped you'd have the decency to at least try to admit something you're wrong... but obviously you don't... All you did was just mumble about topics you hold no grasp and now that I caught you sudently play the passive agressive card that is always the same from people defending your beliefs.
I really hoped you'd learn something.
McDonald's first opened in 1970's Ireland. We required millions of Irish to be "exported" to America
The potato became an Irish staple and we required 10,000 British coming to Ireland for that to happen. We drink coffee and tea and we required 10,000 British coming to Ireland for that to happen.
Vieira82 wrote: » And it does really annoy me that if it was me brandishing a knife at Gardai the other day I would not be shot at all, but because the guy was black it happened and people think it was justified... It annoys me because I have seen blatant criminality and anti-social behavior and people complaining about it and the Garda does nothing at all... so suddenly a black guy being shot like he was when a shot in the leg or arm would have rendered him defenselessMan with fake handgun arrested outside Cork crècheGardai probing coercive control charge man after massive search at Cork house
Wibbs wrote: » I only threw in the passive aggressive reference as you pepper your text with smileys and that's usually the sign of someone in passive aggressive mode. Anyway, you claimed:"big percentage of genetics from the Basque Country in Ireland" This is wildly incorrect. A belief based on now outdated science that noted the R1b haplogroup is present in high amounts in Irish and Basque men. However they are a different form and the relationship that exists is far more ancient than any recent migration(by recent I mean in the last 5000 years). You claimed:"Then the Celts appeared and mingled with most populations" This is incorrect in the case of Ireland. Unlike in England where Saxon genetics are present in the East of that country, there is no evidence of population migration from central European "celts" to Ireland. It was a cultural movement not a population one. You claimed: "Christianity brought hermits from all over Europe to Ireland, because of it's percieved remoteness of a land outside of the crumbling Roman Empire" Incorrect. While Christianity was likely present in Ireland by the 5th century the only "hermits from all over Europe" at that stage were Palladius and Patrick. After Rome fell and insular Christianity really got going in Ireland the flow of people/missionaries was almost entirely one way, from Ireland to Europe. Indeed. Let me fix that for you: To a colony that was founded upon and required (mostly unskilled)labour and colonists to survive. Ireland is not a recent European colony requiring (mostly unskilled)labour and colonists to survive. The French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, Spanish et al eat spuds and drink coffee. 10,000 British people weren't required.
Wibbs wrote: » But you're avoiding the point. Cultural exchange doesn't require mass migrations of people and when mass migrations of people do happen it doesn't go well for the locals. In the case of very different people's and cultures meeting it almost always ends up in conflict.
PCeeeee wrote: » Whatever about your degree which I see you quickly resorted to, with a classless appeal to authority, this above is merely your opinion. In my opinion you are utterly wrong. Do you understand how that works?
Vieira82 wrote: » you won't and what you gonna do about it? Present facts and arguments? Nope nothing... just your feelings hurt and nothing else... facts don't care about your feelings I'm afraid...
Vieira82 wrote: » So... 1 - Yes you did, you erased the part where you said you got mugged for being white
Vieira82 wrote: » Excelente argumentative capacity once again. Well AGAIN, Facts don't care about your feelings and you feeling I'm wrong doesn't mean absolute ****e to me I'll wait patiently for actual arguments from any of you.
Vieira82 wrote: » And it does really annoy me that if it was me brandishing a knife at Gardai the other day I would not be shot at all, but because the guy was black it happened and people think it was justified... It annoys me because I have seen blatant criminality and anti-social behavior and people complaining about it and the Garda does nothing at all... so suddenly a black guy being shot like he was when a shot in the leg or arm would have rendered him defenseless
Vieira82 wrote: » Anyway guys, I'll leave the pub now... I'm truly sorry I burst so many of your bubbles... I hope you'll come back to what I shared and actually learn anything in do time. Feel free to continue with your little racist comments I'll leave you alone now. Peace
Vieira82 wrote: » It annoys me because I have seen blatant criminality and anti-social behavior and people complaining about it and the Garda does nothing at all... so suddenly a black guy being shot like he was when a shot in the leg or arm would have rendered him defenseless
Vieira82 wrote: » Well.. since we're going down the whataboutism road... allow me please...The Troubles
Vieira82 wrote: » There's not even a point to reply to you anymore, really is it? Did you even bother to check the links I passed you?
Get Real wrote: » This is an absolutely disgraceful statement. I think multiculturalism is one of the best things about this country. Me personally, I don't see colour or nationality. I see people, great ones and arseho1es. They used pepperspray, and then a tazer on this man, and guess what, he kept going. He also swung and put his full strength into attempting to stab. He had literally carried out a stabbing less than half an hour beforehand. If you do that, regardless of your skin colour, you're at risk of getting shot. You are unknowingly contributing to racism, do you realise that? By making claims as fact, that someone was shot because of their skin colour, you feel you are contributing to a cause. While having never been oppressed for this reason yourself. But you can pat yourself on the back that you did "good" today. What you're actually doing, is giving a reason for racists to feel they can speak out, you're contributing to division, you're causing anger by making this claim. And some groups will think "that's bull, enough is enough" and they will justify their terrible words and actions. How does saying what you say, help a black person in this country? Would you go and research before making blanket statement. How many black people were arrested last year as a proportion of total arrests? You have an opinion. Please back it up. Otherwise you're fuelling anger and hate, and giving racist bigots a voice.
biko wrote: » But sure, you keep thinking it's the same as the Troubles..
Wibbs wrote: » Well it is. Two different cultures with different allegiances don't tend to mix well over time, the melting pot melts and conflict inevitably kicks off.
Kivaro wrote: » So their argument is that since Ireland has no 'real' culture, we should be grateful of multiculturalism, which adds culture to our lives. It is really a bizarre and illogical argument.
jmreire wrote: » Simple question for you ( and I hope that it never happens BTW. I've seen what Machetes can do ) An out of control man / woman is coming at you wildly swinging a machete, and you have a loaded gun, but only have a short time to react. What would you do? Run for your life and hope for the best? Try the humane way, aim for a disabling but non critical shot? Aim for the biggest target, chest / stomach? Or ?????
[Deleted User] wrote: » Ahh no. It depends entirely on the disability. My shaking disorder prevents me from all manner of jobs that require fine control. I couldn't wait tables, nor can I fly an airplane, because my shaking disorder prevents doing so safely. I can thrive in society well enough because I've chosen roles that aren't dependent on my having a steady hand, or won't be affected if my arms suddenly spasm. Disabilities do matter though. Ask anyone who has one, and whether their choices in determining their future has been affected. Not by other peoples judgment of them (although that's certainly part of it) but by the disability itself.
[Deleted User] wrote: » True enough.. although their race, disability, or socioeconomic background can easily be one of the reasons why they "don't already have the ability or education or skills or indeed the financial resources to provide for themselves or their families".
[Deleted User] wrote: » Nope. I referred to corporal punishment as one of the social constraints that have been removed which previously was a factor in restraining anti-social behavior. Just as I placed the protection of teens in the same sentence. By removing the traditional methods to restrict social disorder, without replacing them with anything more effective, it simply contributed to the increase of that disorder.. And so people blame parents for the lack of discipline or the aggressive behavior of teens. Simply expecting parents to be better parents without teaching them to be better parents always seemed the height of foolishness to me.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Except they're not. Which is why across Europe, schools/universities are struggling to provide for migrants because they have greater needs beyond that of natives. Oh, you'll find plenty of articles saying that schools/universities are failing migrants, but if you compare articles, you'll often find that migrants are being treated the same as natives (in poor/disadvantaged areas), but deserve more. More of everything.. which teachers don't have the time/resources to provide. And it doesn't bear out in terms of adult migrant refugees, who tend to end up and stay in low income positions. If they had education to the Irish standard, then they would be able to climb the career ladders, the same as Irish people. A hefty percentage of migrants don't.
[Deleted User] wrote: » If wishes were fishes, poor people wouldn't starve. There aren't the jobs for them. Ireland's economy is mostly based on a reasonably high skill level, whether that be IT, Pharma or specialised manufacturing. Employment provided to them, takes employment away from our own low-skilled workforce. As I said, such jobs tend to be temporary, unreliable and low paid... which means people shift around on job offers. And support? For how long? For how many of them? To what extent? (I'm not even going to bother with the innovation remark. There's the obvious counter) But as you said, we're very dependent on foreign multinationals (and a few of our own)... what happens when (not if) a few of them leave? Irish people become jobless, all the while we've been encouraging more immigrants to come in. What happens to both the Irish and the immigrants then, with a failing economy, and rising unemployment?
[Deleted User] wrote: » We already have a wide range of systems under strain. Education needs reform along with a major infusion of investment. That's just for our current population... never mind about adding another, what, 50k/100k migrants to the mix. You speak of the wasted investments.. sure.. I get that.. I really do.. but I see the migrant issue as being another colossal waste of money too. I see very few benefits considering our native population (or EU connections) can provide everything Ireland needs to succeed. The immigration of low skilled/low educated migrants leads to extremely dubious benefits, and a whole host of long-term negatives, which we're starting to see manifest in Europe.
One eyed Jack wrote: » Schools across Europe and Universities are struggling to provide for migrants, because they don’t want to. That’s essentially what it comes down to. I don’t need to look for articles to say they’re failing migrants because from what I can see they’re failing the student body in any third level institutions in numerous different ways, and it’s only coming to the fore now because third level institutions are struggling for investment at a time when people are asking questions about whether or not they’re getting value for their investment. Can you see a correlation between the two statements in bold? Because I can.
Migrants, not unlike many Irish people, aren’t aware of the numerous supports which are already provided, they’ve just resigned themselves to imagining the supports don’t exist. Those who want to succeed, whether they be Irish, immigrant or disabled, will succeed in spite of things like the language barrier and the lack of accessible facilities, because the one thing they have in common is the motivation to better themselves. Even better if they are given the opportunities to develop their potential.
What’s the obvious counter to the innovation remark that I’m not thinking of?
What happens if/when foreign multinationals leave? Then everyone who is dependent upon them has the choice to upskill, train to do something else, or sit on their hole and get bitter about “their jobs” being taken. You’re displaying that misguided sense of loyalty I spoke of earlier too btw in thinking that because someone is Irish they’re somehow owed a position over a migrant.
It’s bad enough that they write people off solely on the basis that they don’t have a sufficient grasp of the English language.
The point being that nobody has talked about even 100,000 immigrants entering the country in a calendar year.
We don’t appear to have learned anything from our history, because here we are repeating the same mistakes again and expecting different results, and you’re talking about the long term negatives of an alternative which has been practiced in other countries of providing necessary supports in order to enable people to integrate into society and contribute to society, while maintaining their own cultures and values. Instead you’re still arguing about assimilation rather than recognising that differences aren’t inherently a bad thing.
Deleted User wrote: » And we certainly don't want inner city London gangsterism with the fake accents or the American inspired degenerate 'gangsta' culture. Who would want that as cultural enrichment.
Arthur Daley wrote: » Too late for that
statesaver wrote: » That is pure cringe.
Deleted User wrote: » I feel that's exactly the opposite of what you did previously.
Deleted User wrote: » I get the feeling that you don't know what the argument is, or rather you like to shift the goalposts.
Deleted User wrote: » Regarding Sweden. "The investigation (from 2002 to 2017) covers seven distinct categories of crime, and distinguishes between seven regions of origin. Based on 33 per cent of the population (2017), 58 per cent of those suspect for total crime on reasonable grounds are migrants. Regarding murder, manslaughter and attempted murder, the figures are 73 per cent, while the proportion of robbery is 70 per cent. Non-registered migrants are linked to about 13 per cent of total crime. Given the fact that this group is small, crime propensity among non-registered migrants is significant" " Due to migration, murder rate in Sweden has quadrupled" And yes, many migrants don't engage in crime, but the fact remains that Sweden, the poster child for rapid change of a mostly homogeneous population, has experienced a huge increase in crime, and one that can be directly connected to it's immigration policies. The full report is definitely worth a read. After reading it, perhaps ask the question, why would Ireland be different?
McHardcore wrote: » A big issue with current research investigating immigration and crime is that they struggle to show causality, or dont show it at all. To give an example, immigrants are often placed into deprived areas as its cheaper both in cost and political capital to do so. Also, immigrants move there themselves as they cannot afford to stay in more well off areas. It is not accurate to compare the crime levels of a population in deprived areas compared to more well-off areas. This socioeconomic factor and others need to be taken into account. You need to compare like with like, in this example, native members of the population and immigrants living in the same areas. With these additional factors in mind, FactCheck.Org noted that "experts said there is no evidence of a major crime wave." in Sweden. According to official statistics, the reported crime rate in Sweden has risen since 2005 whereas annual government surveys show that the number of Swedes experiencing crime remain steady since 2005, even as Sweden has taken in hundreds of thousands of immigrants and refugees over the same period.https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-sweden-idUSKBN15Y0QHhttp://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/trump-sweden-twitter-235196https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/02/24/no-sweden-isnt-hiding-an-immigrant-crime-problem-this-is-the-real-story/https://www.smh.com.au/world/the-swedish-migrant-crime-story-that-donald-trump-didnt-tell-20170225-gul5s6.html Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist professor at the University of Stockholm, said foreign-born residents are twice as likely to be registered for a crime as native Swedes but that other factors beyond place of birth are at play, such as education level and poverty, and that similar trends occur in European countries that have not taken in a lot of immigrants in recent years. Additional research from Stockholm University found that there was "only a small correlation in the crime of individuals who share the same origin, indicating that culture is unlikely to be a strong cause of crime among immigrants." D. Boateng et al looked at the relationship between crime and immigration in a number of European countries, including Sweden and Ireland and found that "the results indicated a null relationship between immigration and crime, suggesting that immigration is unrelated to all the three types of crimes assessed. Based on these results, it is recommended that immigration-related policies will be based on fact and evidence, and not on sentiments and perceptions."Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime. In general, research that takes these factors into account does not support the idea that there is a link between immigration and crime (The Routledge Handbook on Crime and International Migration. Routledge. p. 42.). If we look at Sweden's National Council for Crime Prevention, Stina Holmberg said that "there is no basis for drawing the conclusion that crime rates are soaring in Sweden and that that is related to immigration" Swedish police published data that showed from October 2015 to January 2016, 5,000 police calls out of 537,466 involved asylum seekers and refugees. The professor of criminology at Stockholm University, Felipe Estrada, has said this shows how the media gives disproportionate attention to and exaggerates the alleged criminal involvement of asylum seekers and refugees. Some other sources that show that there is no link between immigration and crime in Sweden, or that the link is mixed at best:http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/feb/20/what-statistics-say-about-immigration-and-sweden/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258182579_Are_Children_of_Immigrants_Born_in_Sweden_More_Law-Abiding_Than_Immigrants_A_Reconsiderationhttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/swedish-immigration-is-not-out-of-control-it-s-actually-getting-more-restrictive-a7605071.html
Deleted User wrote: » The majority of organisations who dedicate themselves to making reports are directly involved in immigration, or activism, and have an inherent bias in what they report, and how they present it. State reporting, typically, is more reliable, however, due to the focus on promoting immigration over the last two decades (as part of State/EU policy), they've allowed other organisations to take over the primary active role in doing so. Why? Because there was a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.
Deleted User wrote: » Throughout this thread, I have provided various links to back up my statements. .... I've invariably pulled a report or two to do that.
Deleted User wrote: » Sure I did... but then, there tends to be the assumption that people won't take such statements as an absolute.
Deleted User wrote: » You've an awful habit of twisting comments.
Deleted User wrote: » I'm curious why you sought to engage with me rather than with Biko, since he's prominent on theSweden thread, whereas I just popped up a single piece of research on the subject.
Deleted User wrote: » Gibbligook.
McHardcore wrote: » Again, if you cannot stand by what you said then don't say it in the first place.
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