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How to elect competent leaders

Stacksofwacks

Might be more suited to ranting and raving but move it over if needs be..

Based on a long winded chat I had with a mate earlier just a few fragmented thoughts..

We need to stop electing charismatic but incompetent politicians. Become more like the Dutch and Germans who use a more scientific approach using fact and reason in decision making. Middle Ireland orientated politics consists of stroking Paddys ego, talk about the GAA match and boom your in the Dail, we need to get away from that style of politics.

I guess using intelligence and competency in politics is veering towards progressivism but not the far left type. Problem is in this country and also in US and UK is people want a show not a nerdy guy behind a computer who might have more knowledge and competence. Irish people complain about politicians but if someone intelligent stands then they vote in the gob****e..just wondering how we can get away from this mindset?

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paw patrol

the people get the politicians they deserve.

kalych

I agree with Paw Patrol. People mostly vote for people that are like them and seem like they hold similar values.

So if a midlands guy/gal in your example themselves like to talk about GAA and hold more populists beliefs, such as: 'Dublin gets all the investment. When is my village getting a new dual carriage road upgrade?!' - he/she shall vote for a politician who they believe 'cares' about these issues.

Nothing wrong with that btw. That's how democracy is meant to work. You can't legislate for people sometimes voting against the perceived 'common good'. Everyone has an equal vote.

Stacksofwacks

kalych wrote: »

I agree with Paw Patrol. People mostly vote for people that are like them and seem like they hold similar values.

So if a midlands guy/gal themselves like to talk about GAA and hold more populists beliefs, such as: 'Dublin gets all the investment. When is my village getting a new dual carriage road upgrade?!' - he/she shall vote for a politician who they believe 'cares' about these issues.

Nothing wrong with that btw. That's how democracy is meant to work. You can't legislate for people sometimes voting against the perceived 'common good'. Everyone has an equal vote.

Is it really though? Politicians telling lies and making false promises to get power instead of using truth and reason so people are hoodwinked into voting for them..The media has responsibility aswell as they want the guy who is a 'bit of a character' or gives good soundbites than tells the boring old truth.

Dunfyy

You need to get involved in politics if you want change start at grassroots

Idbatterim

It's not like we are ignoring good options, those that run for election here are a joke. All the same voice...

kalych

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Is it really though? Politicians telling lies and making false promises to get power instead of using truth and reason so people are hoodwinked into voting for them..The media has responsibility aswell as they want the guy who is a 'bit of a character' or gives good soundbites than tells the boring old truth.

It is, yeah! See every outcome has positives and negatives. You can limit the voting rights of people that disagree with you and against their will elect people you perceive as more 'competent' politicians.

However, equally someone else with different values can garner more support than you and do the same to you and voila - you now live in a dictatorship where you have no say in what government is formed. Sure that would totally suck, but hey! Didn't you just want to do the same to other voters?

Democracy is not perfect but other options tend to lead to more perverse outcomes.

chrissb8

People paying attention to what's going on would be a start. Seems most ignore politics until they're asked to vote. We listen to the promises instead of the facts about the candidate, or worse yet, use their social media as a measure of how "sound" they are. I guess I could be counted in that bracket too but would try and understand who I am voting for and have a look at the track record and if promises for the future are reasonable i.e. achievable and not pandering to the electorate.

If more people paid attention to who was going in and put them under more scrutiny then we would have a far more representative government. As it stands people get lazy and generalise with things like "all crooks" or "greedy bstrds". Instead of pulling their head out of their rear end and using their powers of criticism and reason.

Hyperbollix

There seems be some kind of correlation between educated, informed and active citizens electing competent leaders in some countries, while in other countries poorly educated, misinformed, lazy citizens elect pure shítbags.

So you obviously need more of the former and less of the latter.

banie01

The parliamentary system here tends to force party leaders to be politically savvy and actually competent.

Policy is often at odds with politics though and competence can easily be waylaid by populism if a big enough majority is won.
Take the UK's FPTP system as an example.
Sloganeering led to a landslide Tory victory in 2019, that gave them a majority in no way reflective of the actual vote share.

Ireland for its faults, and in particular among those I"d put our political system as over centralised.
Too many regional decisions are taken at a national level and TDs really need to be removed from that level of politics IMO.

Ireland's political system forces consensus, representative democracy and quite often consensus building as a matter of course.
PR and the evolving electorate and the diminution of FG and FF are forcing far broader politicking and policies on to the parties that seek power.

The days of 1 party steamrolling a junior party in coalition are gone for the foreseeable IMO and that's no bad thing.

Parliamentary democracy offers far more representative government than Presidential.
Leading a party, forces a politician to demonstrate their leadership even in opposition.
The system ideally forces party leaders to rely on consensus and political skill as the basis of their leadership.

That said, the current coalition is a Frankenstein's monster borne out of a desire to keep SF from power, rather than political harmony on the part of the coalition.

The degree of patrimony and Nepotistic practice exposed in government should be a klaxxon call for a SIPO to actually step up and ensure some degree of independence in appointments to the bench and public bodies.
It's the light of public review and accountability that will force improvement in political and public standards IMO.

[Deleted User]

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Problem is in this country and also in US and UK is people want a show not a nerdy guy behind a computer who might have more knowledge and competence.

I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone here is begging for a mendacious narcissist like Trump or Johnson in charge. Many of our politicians might be shíte but we don't deserve to be lumped in with US or Britain.

Certainly we need more politicians who focus more on the national interest, rather than just their own area, but we're hardly overrun by charismatic snake oil salesmen either - does anyone out there think Micheál Martin or Enda Kenny are "charismatic"?

Stacksofwacks

kalych wrote: »

It is, yeah! See every outcome has positives and negatives. You can limit the voting rights of people that disagree with you and against their will elect people you perceive as more 'competent' politicians.

However, equally someone else with different values can garner more support than you and do the same to you and voila - you now live in a dictatorship where you have no say in what government is formed. Sure that would totally suck, but hey! Didn't you just want to do the same to other voters?

Democracy is not perfect but other options tend to lead to more perverse outcomes.

Im not advocating a dictatorship at all I just want better politicians who know what the heck they're doing, I'm sure there are some good honest politicians out there but they seem in the minority, at least to me it seems anyway

kalych

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Im not advocating a dictatorship at all I just want better politicians who know what the heck they're doing, I'm sure there are some good honest politicians out there but they seem in the minority, at least to me it seems anyway

I'm not saying you want dictatorships. Your post seems to suggest you want to find a way to exercise control over candidates. That in itself is fraught with issues, with dictatorship being a possible outcome whether you like it or not.

Stacksofwacks

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think that's true. I don't think anyone here is begging for a mendacious narcissist like Trump or Johnson in charge. Many of our politicians might be shíte but we don't deserve to be lumped in with US or Britain.

Certainly we need more politicians who focus more on the national interest, rather than just their own area, but we're hardly overrun by charismatic snake oil salesmen either - does anyone out there think Micheál Martin or Enda Kenny are "charismatic"?

Maybe not to you or I but the little old ladies down in Cork and Mayo that vote for them each time might think differently

Larbre34

The problem with Irish politics, national politics anyway, is that it is clientilist.

We are electing members to a national parliament, and they focus on fixing local and trivial matters rather than legislating for the common good for the whole Country and its 5 million people.

Why and how? Because we have never properly addressed local Government in this State. We have 31 City and County Councils, large run by their executives as elected members have been gradually stripped of powers over the last 30 years because of corruption and irresponsibility.

What to do?

Start again from the ground up.

1. Community Councils to make representations for local issues.

2. Replace the 31 City and County Councils with 7 or 8 regional authorities. Authorities with full time elected representatives with control over and budgetary responsibility for devolved issues in their region; planning, infrastructure, transport, housing, universities, hospital groups, recreation, heritage, environment, the Arts, Sport etc - all linked back to a national strategy.

3) elected a national legislature by a list system, ie not linked to any area, or any particular group. Allow parties to run with their policy programmes, but the voter picks the Party for that policy, not the person for their local connections. In turn, the Party fills the number seats according to their votes, beginning with their brightest and best minds. This legislature then sets the direction of national policy and strategy in high level matters, taxation, justice, foreign policy, migration and the principles by which the regions must govern in turn. I would also either reform the Senate to be universally elected or be abolished. An exclusive electorate just of university graduates or business groups or whatever is inherently undemocratic. And I say that as one of them.

This, of course, requires the Turkeys to vote for Christmas to begin such massive constitutional change. But I think, what I'm outlining could be the change so much of the country demands, a path to a Second Republic, a 21st Century secular Western nation, preparing for the reintegration of Northern Ireland.

Idbatterim

Reintegration? Lol! A unionist bomb on an empty bus in dublin will put that delusion back a good decade minimum!

dxhound2005

It is not an attractive career path for talented people in private business, who can pay themselves 10 times as much as a Taoiseach gets. That is why so few put themselves forward for election.

Greyfox

We need to start by making politicians accountable for when they do a poor job, most of our politicians are useless because the current system doesnt punish mediocrity.

Andrewf20

How do you know anyone will be a competent leader? People in interviews can come across as professional, hard working and have the paperwork to back it up. But in practice they can and do at times completely under perform.

And how do you measure competence? 2 project managers or politicians could get similar end results but we would likely have no inkling to the hardships that 1 of them had to deal with compared to the other.

If a project fails to deliver it doesn't automatically mean the project leader is a poor manager. It could be that 1 or more circumstances came to fruition or changed that make project less viable that anticipated.

Irishphotodesk

Labre34 has pretty much said it

The problem is the system needs to change before the politicians can change, and that would require those with vested interests to walk away.

Politicians are limited in what they can do/say ... It's the people in the system which houses them who keep the system running, politicians change ...the system stays the same.

Mad_maxx

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

Might be more suited to ranting and raving but move it over if needs be..

Based on a long winded chat I had with a mate earlier just a few fragmented thoughts..

We need to stop electing charismatic but incompetent politicians. Become more like the Dutch and Germans who use a more scientific approach using fact and reason in decision making. Middle Ireland orientated politics consists of stroking Paddys ego, talk about the GAA match and boom your in the Dail, we need to get away from that style of politics.

I guess using intelligence and competency in politics is veering towards progressivism but not the far left type. Problem is in this country and also in US and UK is people want a show not a nerdy guy behind a computer who might have more knowledge and competence. Irish people complain about politicians but if someone intelligent stands then they vote in the gob****e..just wondering how we can get away from this mindset?

start by dumping the awful PR electoral system

dxhound2005

Mad_maxx wrote: »

start by dumping the awful PR electoral system

When FF were permanently in power, they tried to do that. But the people voted against, not once but twice, in two referendums.

Larbre34

Idbatterim wrote: »

Reintegration? Lol! A unionist bomb on an empty bus in dublin will put that delusion back a good decade minimum!

Why? As in why would any Unionist (and I presume you mean Loyalist) plant a bomb to improve their position? Why would they plant one in Dublin and why would it be on an empty bus?

I only ask, because it never improved the position of anyone in history who did it.

Larbre34

Mad_maxx wrote: »

start by dumping the awful PR electoral system

PRSTV is a beautiful electoral system, perhaps the most democratically representative of all.

The problem WE have is, its used to elect individuals in multi seat constituencies. If it were used to elect Parties on a list system, it would do away with the Parish pump, while also keeping alive small parties and independent groupings.

Larbre34

Greyfox wrote: »

We need to start by making politicians accountable for when they do a poor job, most of our politicians are useless because the current system doesnt punish mediocrity.

We can blame nobody but ourselves for that.

However, we do boot out many mediocre TDs every 5 years. Any ones we send back, well, thats on us.

Stacksofwacks

Larbre34 wrote: »

Why? As in why would any Unionist (and I presume you mean Loyalist) plant a bomb to improve their position? Why would they plant one in Dublin and why would it be on an empty bus?

I only ask, because it never improved the position of anyone in history who did it.

They planted bombs in 1974 in Dublin and Monaghan so it has happened before, but it was as a response to the rife IRA bombing that happened at the time. If or when a United Ireland happens it will be through consensus and I imagine there will be a prolonged process leading up to that. If any violence results it be by splinter groups as the mainstream unionist leaders wont agree to a United Ireland without popular support within their community. We might be waiting a while

Stacksofwacks

On the subject of Loyalism, Billy Hutchinson wrote a very honest book about his life as a loyalist. He wasn't invited on the late late show for a chin wag with Tubridy(he may have done some radio interviews). If he was no doubt he would have gotten a rough ride and while I think tough questions should be asked these are the type of people we need to understand and listen to their stories if we want to be realistic about a United Ireland or what that means..just my two cents but back to the main thread.. Politicians bad!!

Larbre34

If a rough ride was in order for Hutchinson, Tubridy is the last fella that you'd see handing it out.

Stacksofwacks

Larbre34 wrote: »

If a rough ride was in order for Hutchinson, Tubridy is the last fella that you'd see handing it out.

Funnily enough Tubridy is quite the establishment hack and can turn on a very negative veneer when someone who has a differing worldview.

Larbre34

Stacksofwacks wrote: »

They planted bombs in 1974 in Dublin and Monaghan so it has happened before, but it was as a response to the rife IRA bombing that happened at the time. If or when a United Ireland happens it will be through consensus and I imagine there will be a prolonged process leading up to that. If any violence results it be by splinter groups as the mainstream unionist leaders wont agree to a United Ireland without popular support within their community. We might be waiting a while

It starts, literally, today. It'll be done by 2030.

What will it look like? Probably a more autonomous NI in a federated Ireland. But, no longer connected to Britain legally, politically or financially.

Disagree? If you told DUP heads like Wilson and Poots while they were lording it over Theresa May for their billion pounds of silver just a couple of years ago, that by 01/01/21, the Union of NI to GB would be formally weakened by the consent of a British Prime Minister, that there would be an economic border in the Irish sea, that NI would remain in the single market and customs union of the EU while GB left, that NI citizens would have to make customs and cash declarations coming or going to the "mainland", that British companies would stop selling into NI because of it being a small foreign territory and not worth the customs hassle etc....
- their heads would have actually exploded and they would have had you sectioned under the mental health act.

My point is, things can move unexpectedly and drastically fast when there is a little factor called momentum. And momentum is now public enemy number one, of Northern Unionism.

Stacksofwacks

Larbre34 wrote: »

It starts, literally, today. It'll be done by 2030.

What will it look like? Probably a more autonomous NI in a federated Ireland. But, no longer connected to Britain legally, politically or financially.

Disagree? If you told DUP heads like Wilson and Poots while they were lording it over Theresa May for their billion pounds of silver just a couple of years ago, that by 01/01/21, the Union of NI to GB would be formally weakened by the consent of a British Prime Minister, that there would be an economic border in the Irish sea, that NI would remain in the single market and customs union of the EU while GB left, that NI citizens would have to make customs and cash declarations coming or going to the "mainland", that British companies would stop selling into NI because of it being a small foreign territory and not worth the customs hassle etc....
- their heads would have actually exploded and they would have had you sectioned under the mental health act.

My point is, things can move unexpectedly and drastically fast when there is a little factor called momentum. And momentum is now public enemy number one, of Northern Unionism.

True enough, they are trying to hang on and hang on and I think privately some of them are coming to terms with the fact that some form of a united Ireland will take place in the not so distant future, the IRA is off the table, Brexit has happened so the roads are narrowing, but I think nothing should be taken for granted, it will be a process