Vieira82 wrote: » I'm an immigrant in this country now for a little more than 9 years and a month... I got hired by a multinational that went hiring in my homecountry. With me I was working with Spanish, Brazilians, Portuguese, Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, French, Italians... Almost immediately after arriving I started hearing about attacks on my colleagues. Two of them a Brazilian and a Spanish after a night out on their way home got gangued up by 5 youngsters screaming at them to speak English. They tried to defend themselves, a fight ensued, Garda arrived and politely said "they can't do nothing". Not even a month after arriving in this country one of my Brazilian colleagues was beaten, able to escape and chased into the companies building by 10 youths screaming at him to go back to his country. The fact his kind of brownish and has curly hair didn't factor it at all... Already said here that the first thing I was told by the relocation agent, the elderly lady driving down Shandon Street in Cork that Shandon was really riddled with crime because of all the blacks. The lady said this under her breath because she knew she was being racist saying that. I lived nearby for years on years, never I saw one issue with an African person, absolute zero. On the other hand with "native" Irish even a google search you can find cases of it over the last ten years. Just out the door of my home in Blackpool a bunch of kids, calling a pregnant african lady pushing a troley a chimp and making monkey noises... they didn't learn that by themselves... In March 2011 I lived in White Street, Cork. A Spanish guy was beaten with golf clubs, Garda everywhere, screams from them on the street, not one single shot fired because back then they didn't have the Armed Unit, they got the kids arrested... but surprisingly not one single of them got even a bruise or a punch... nothing... after almost killing a person... oh yeah... the kids where all Irish... Because I'm blond with blue eyes I don't get any of this crap, only when I open my mouth and they notice I don't have an irish accent. There's certain people that whenever you are if you open your mouth and they notice your accent is not Irish, the very next question will be... "Where are you from?" Some even ask "what are you doing here?" Or keep asking, they need to know what a foreigner is doing in their country...
Bambi wrote: » It was handy that you started with this doozy so people didnt have to read any further
Vieira82 wrote: » As for multiculturalism... multiculturalism has been a part of human society since forever. Racism and division between cultures is something born out of colonialism as a way to justify certain cultures taking over others...
Vieira82 wrote: » Because I'm blond with blue eyes I don't get any of this crap, only when I open my mouth and they notice I don't have an irish accent. There's certain people that whenever you are if you open your mouth and they notice your accent is not Irish, the very next question will be... "Where are you from?" Some even ask "what are you doing here?" Or keep asking, they need to know what a foreigner is doing in their country...
One eyed Jack wrote: » “Progressives” haven’t put us on any path, simply because they don’t have that kind of power, they’re a tiny minority of upstarts on social media and nothing more, easily ignored.
‘Racial strife’ me hole, you’re trying desperately to make out that anti-social behaviour is a race issue, and it’s not. Your proclamations are no different to Rory O’ Neill suggesting Ireland is a hotbed of homophobia because he had a milk carton thrown at him. It’s just daft.
Kivaro wrote: » It's a shame that we (collectively) have allowed the so-called "progressives" of this country, under the guise of making us more diverse, have put us on a path of perpetual racial strife for the foreseeable future. It is our children and our children's children who will suffer the most from this failed social experiment.
Yellow_Fern wrote: » You can't cite that study for evidence. It refers to people who arrived in Swden in the 1980s. Totally irrelvant to the discussion about recent migration.
McHardcore wrote: » To quote D. Boateng et al. who looked at the relationship between crime and immigration in a number of European countries, including Sweden and Ireland: "The results indicated a null relationship between immigration and crime, suggesting that immigration is unrelated to all the three types of crimes assessed. Based on these results, it is recommended that immigration-related policies will be based on fact and evidence, and not on sentiments and perceptions." On your point: Look back on your post. You gave a blanket dismissal of States and "organisations" reports on migration as there was a "inherent bias in what they report" and "a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.": You go on then to tell us how you pulled these State and "organisations" reports to back up your own statements:
McHardcore wrote: » If anyone else needs more convincing that there is no or mixed link between crime and immigration in Sweden after reading this post, here are some additional research findings:Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime. In general, research that takes these factors into account does not support the idea that there is a link between immigration and crime (The Routledge Handbook on Crime and International Migration. Routledge. p. 42.).
Tell me how wrote: » I wouldn't simply go by this thread or others on boards as to the view of wider society. Peter Casey becoming President didn't actually happen in the real world. Thankfully other threads which..... shall I say, end up with a largely singular view, aren't necessarily evident of the wider societal view on certain topics either. As for benefits, and before I list some, it is interesting that you want to exclude exoticism and charity. I take it this means you recognize that there are benefits within interactions between cultures. I noted when I dropped in to this thread a few days ago also that someone was pointing out the success of asians in various locations while stating that africans were less successful. More of a tacit acceptance of multiculturalism while still seeking to insist it doesn't work. Some benefits; Variety in cuisine, arts, music, religion. (sorry not leaving out just because you want to exclude them) Availability of many skilled people particularly in medical fields. Exposure to people from different cultures which encourages people to then travel to those places for short or longer term stays. Evidence that Ireland is a compassionate society willing to offer support and a home to those in need. A continuation of our own cultural historic heritage of being an Island of a thousand welcomes. Interaction between people leading to collaboration facilitating the opening of business and education opportunities for Irish people and businesses. Interaction between cultures leads to greater understanding of the beliefs, practices, behaviors of people outside of just those who you grew up with. Diversity within the workplace strengthens a businesses hand in targeting other markets. Varied participants at a population level can help foster bonds and relationships at a national level leading to less argumentative diplomatic relationships. It is merely a continuation of the way society has evolved to this point, and while you might say that was actually through violence and destruction, that violence and destruction has lessened as a consequence of the realisation that as people intermingle between cultures, there is more that unites than divides. The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together. Exposure and participation in various religious, cultural or arts activities can be enjoyable as well as being informative. Stronger community ties lead to a safer world. Variety is the spice of life. Many people take fulfillment and indeed meaning and purpose in their lives through the study or creation of music, art, poetry, literature etc. Being able to select from additional cultures only widens the opportunity to do so.
Tell me how wrote: » The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.
PearseCork92 wrote: » This looks like it's being given government support, so it will ultimately FF / FG and Greens carrying the water on this.
One eyed Jack wrote: » Because rightly or wrongly, we’re seen as a prosperous economy internationally, and people want a piece of it. I can’t see us implementing the birth passport loophole again (that would require either Labour or Sinn Fein being given the opportunity to get into Government again and I can’t see that happening).
Wibbs wrote: » Why? We've enough and enough problems already thanks very much. EU citizens can come here, that's not an issue. Legal immigration through the proper channels is not an issue either. Unless the government reinstates the birth passport tourism loophole against the wishes of the Irish people that door is closed. Unless the government double down on importing more chancers and economic migrants that door is closed too. And I'll bet if any government does this they'll lose votes over it. As for the existing problem demographics we're sadly stuck with them and worse it will get for a time as both "White flight" and "Black flight"(those Black folks who want to get on) will concentrate the problems. Just like everywhere else. And just like everywhere else we won't do anything any differently and Ireland will have the same problems of this busted flush of a politic and social experiment just like everywhere else.
Wibbs wrote: » Canada is an ex colonial state born and reliant upon migration. They are not the same as Ireland or any other European nation. Their experiences and reasons for importing people are very different.
One eyed Jack wrote: » We don’t need them, but we’re getting them whether we like it or not, one way or the other.
while Canada appears to have done much better in terms of social integration of its various communities because they were better prepared with a more innovative approach of giving immigrants the benefit of the doubt that they were willing to contribute to society
McHardcore wrote: » This is a terrible frame of mind. You need to enter the subject with an open view, look at the evidence, and draw your conclusion then
Look back on your post. You gave a blanket dismissal of States and "organisations" reports on migration as there was a "inherent bias in what they report" and "a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.":
You go on then to tell us how you pulled these State and "organisations" reports to back up your own statements:
A case of having your cake and eating it too? If you feel that your State and "organisations" reports are correct, but everyones elses are wrong, you need to clearly identify why the other persons report is wrong. Vague blanket dismissals of "inherent bias" against everyone else's reports is a weak argument and undermines the reports that you have linked to yourself.
You broadened it yourself: Along with describing State and "organisations" as an unreliable source of information, you said education was only "an example" Again, have a read of your quote:
is irrelevant to the argument.
Wibbs wrote: » East Asians don't particularly integrate nor get any more investment by societies and yet don't have the same problems as other demographics. It's not "race" either as Indians and Pakistani demographics show similar divergences. Same "race", same overarching native culture, same focus of racism where present. That's also assuming people want to integrate, want investment.
Wibbs wrote: » So again why import people and problems that have proven intractable and add to existing problems in existing societies? It makes no sense. We don't need extra people. We certainly don't need tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands and more that some politicians here have suggested we need.
One eyed Jack wrote: » We’re not importing problems IMO, we’re importing people, and because we’re not investing in people, we’re going to continue to have the same problems exacerbated by the lack of investment in people.
Sir Oxman wrote: » Yes, it won't be the utter nutters in the Freedom or National parties that make serious inroads here. IMO, it'll be an established party eventually, possibly FF (I can't see any other big party in the frame at all) with a rolback of open doors policy and hopefully taking on some of the excellent suggestions in this thread alone!
The collection of 'left' parties (SF/Green/SD/Lab/PBP-Sol) will never, ever engage in lucid, logical, rational conversations about this. Never.
We can all hope something akin to NP or IFP but with rational 'sounding' leadership and policies and a charasmatic leader doesn't take foothold because that will get a very big foothold with what is coming up.
Wibbs wrote: » Which was the case before the late 90's non EU influx of migrants to Ireland and nothing has changed much since. So again, why import more intractable problems on top of existing intractable problems?Again it wasn't before. It's not there in the rest of multicultural Europe where the exact same narratives have played out for decades. Again why import more negatives for little in the way of positives? Quite a few people on this thread have said this politic and social experiment is a positive. It's a near given apparently, yet when actually pushed for examples? It appears to be remarkably undefined beyond exoticism and charity. Not just here. If you have an oul google for positives the same exoticism and charity and variations on that theme is all there is. This goes for ex European colonies as well as European states. More and more this politic looks a belief based on little evidence. A faith, rather than a politic. One that in my humble sprang from those same ex European colonies like America where it became increasingly hard to deny that their belief in a "melting pot" was a nonsense so naturally and with the best of intentions for the most part they tried to push the multicultural narrative as a positive. If we believed it enough things would change. Yet 60 years since Martin Luther King had his dream BLM needed to be heard. And within 20 years of Ireland becoming more "multicultural" we're already seeing the exact same narratives and growing divisions in play.
Kivaro wrote: » You can imagine the draw that Ireland has now become with these types of changes that are pushed through by progressive politicians and judges. Is there a benefit to Ireland with this type of multiculturalism? I don't see it, but there is a huge financial and social cost.
McHardcore wrote: » Beckley et al. criticised previous reports that did not take into account population's employment, education level and age, all of which affect level of crime.
Tell me how wrote: » As for benefits, and before I list some, it is interesting that you want to exclude exoticism and charity. I take it this means you recognize that there are benefits within interactions between cultures.
I noted when I dropped in to this thread a few days ago also that someone was pointing out the success of asians in various locations while stating that africans were less successful. More of a tacit acceptance of multiculturalism while still seeking to insist it doesn't work.
Some benefits; Variety in cuisine, arts, music, religion. (sorry not leaving out just because you want to exclude them)/Exposure and participation in various religious, cultural or arts activities can be enjoyable as well as being informative./Variety is the spice of life. Many people take fulfillment and indeed meaning and purpose in their lives through the study or creation of music, art, poetry, literature etc. Being able to select from additional cultures only widens the opportunity to do so.
Exposure to people from different cultures which encourages people to then travel to those places for short or longer term stays.
Evidence that Ireland is a compassionate society willing to offer support and a home to those in need.
A continuation of our own cultural historic heritage of being an Island of a thousand welcomes.
Interaction between people leading to collaboration facilitating the opening of business and education opportunities for Irish people and businesses.
Interaction between cultures leads to greater understanding of the beliefs, practices, behaviors of people outside of just those who you grew up with.
Diversity within the workplace strengthens a businesses hand in targeting other markets.
Varied participants at a population level can help foster bonds and relationships at a national level leading to less argumentative diplomatic relationships.
It is merely a continuation of the way society has evolved to this point, and while you might say that was actually through violence and destruction, that violence and destruction has lessened as a consequence of the realisation that as people intermingle between cultures, there is more that unites than divides.
The solution to areas of continued conflict, such as in Israel at the moment will not come about through segregation and isolation but through a realisation that these cultures need to find ways to live together.
Stronger community ties lead to a safer world.
Availability of many skilled people particularly in medical fields.
Deleted User wrote: » Regarding Sweden. "The investigation (from 2002 to 2017) covers seven distinct categories of crime, and distinguishes between seven regions of origin. Based on 33 per cent of the population (2017), 58 per cent of those suspect for total crime on reasonable grounds are migrants. Regarding murder, manslaughter and attempted murder, the figures are 73 per cent, while the proportion of robbery is 70 per cent. Non-registered migrants are linked to about 13 per cent of total crime. Given the fact that this group is small, crime propensity among non-registered migrants is significant" " Due to migration, murder rate in Sweden has quadrupled" And yes, many migrants don't engage in crime, but the fact remains that Sweden, the poster child for rapid change of a mostly homogeneous population, has experienced a huge increase in crime, and one that can be directly connected to it's immigration policies. The full report is definitely worth a read. After reading it, perhaps ask the question, why would Ireland be different?
Deleted User wrote: » honestly, I've learned from this thread that people will believe what they want to believe, and you will likely dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your pov. Why? Because you'll be able to find research that supports your pov, just as others would find research that counters your pov. All in all, you'll choose what to accept if it supports your beliefs.
Deleted User wrote: » haha... You've just proven that people see what they want to see, rather than what was written.
Deleted User wrote: » The majority of organisations who dedicate themselves to making reports are directly involved in immigration, or activism, and have an inherent bias in what they report, and how they present it. State reporting, typically, is more reliable, however, due to the focus on promoting immigration over the last two decades (as part of State/EU policy), they've allowed other organisations to take over the primary active role in doing so. Why? Because there was a direct bias to present immigration as being a net benefit, to justify the agendas at play.
Deleted User wrote: » Throughout this thread, I have provided various links to back up my statements. .... I've invariably pulled a report or two to do that.
Deleted User wrote: » I struggled to find reliable information regarding education, but don't let that stop you from broadening my point beyond what I actually said. :rolleyes:
Deleted User wrote: » "Let me give you an example. I wanted to find out the education level of migrants entering Ireland over the last two decades. I looked online. Nothing. I emailed and phoned the CSO, nothing. I checked the EU commission database, nothing.
Deleted User wrote: » Oh. Just to add something that should be obvious. Any post that doesn't provide links/evidence to support it, is just an opinion. It is unreliable. Yours, mine, every post. They're opinions.. Just as they're often opinions backed up by evidence, but remain opinions, because none of us are accredited/identifiable experts. Amazing that this needed to be said.
Wibbs wrote: » List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread. So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.
biko wrote: » It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants. That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms. Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland. There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.
Wibbs wrote: » True. I shoud have made the distinction of Roma not Romanian. Very different things.
Thelonious Monk wrote: » Well do you really think it's easy to find hotel room cleaners, that will stay for years and are hard workers? Who in Ireland wants to do that?
![Photo of [Deleted User]](https://w9.vanillicon.com/v2/9c6ef39403f5dc93bd4b9e77a11c1821.svg)
