Acosta wrote: » Didn't Ireland let allied ships use the ports anyway, in a kind of Irish way of officially you can't, but do if you really need to just don't tell anyone? Also, allied airmen were immediately repatriated. Unlike the Germans who were sent to the Curragh.
Stovepipe wrote: » Allied airmen were not immediately repatriated at the start of the war but later, they were "allowed" to wander across the Border and in some cases, actively assisted to cross the Border. The Germans weren't and quite a few declined to make any attempt to escape.....it served Britain better that we were neutral.
whisky_galore wrote: » With better food, freedoms and conditions than a POW in a UK camp, why would you even bother? Rather tough to make an escape as an Axis prisoner from Ireland anyhow, easy to get out of the camp, getting out of the country and back home? How would you even go about it?
feargale wrote: » This seems to be the only thread on Irish WW2 Neutrality, so I'll post here. I see from time to time accusations that German U-boats were serviced by Ireland during the war. I don't know if any of these accusers,who for themostpart have no love for Ireland, are suggesting the the Irish government had a hand in this, but clearly that was not so. However, see this piece by a Canadian poster inanother site: John Fletcher, Canada: "The Irish fishboats would rendezvous with U -boats out in the Atlantic to sell them supplies. I had a friend who was a tail gunner on a Sunderland Flying Boat, who hunted U boats, and they would often find the boats and the subs together at night. They never had any confirmed kills on the subs, but he had several stenciled ‘sinking boats’ on his turret, as by the time he could see where they were, only the fishboat was there as the sub had submerged. He said if all his four guns were working, which was rare, the boats would just about disintegrate if he was on target!"Is there any truth in this? It is true that a few of our fishing ports had a strong anti-British element which might lend credence to this, but I doubt very much that the logistics of such an operation would make it possible. And at that time not many Irish fishermen had any craft other than currachs. Any comments, please?
feargale wrote: » How much would a Deutchmark buy in Donegal at that time?
Peregrinus wrote: » Nitpick: The currency of Germany in Nazi times was the Reichsmark. The Deutschmark wasn't launched until 1948. What would a Reichsmark buy in Donegal? Nothing, basically. It would have been impossible to convert to Irish currency or to sterling. None of the banks would touch it. If German naval vessels had a need to purchase supplies for cash while on mission, I imagine that the captain was issued with a float of suitable foreign currencies that he could use for that purpose. But its very unlikely that the Germans would have planned naval missions in which feeding the crew required a fortunate rendezvous with a fishing vessel in order to purchase a few pilchards. Vessels were issued with the food supplies they needed for the mission. If that wasn't possible then the mission would be planned to include stops at regular ports where supplies could be purchased, and German consular officials would arrange for settlement of the cost. Which is not to say that there might not have been the odd opportunistic purchase as a result of a chance encounter with a fishing vessel; fresh fish would make a pleasant change from tinned beef and powdered eggs. But it would be unplanned, occasional, and a decision made by the captain when the occasion arose. And not, of course, if it threatened the safety of the vessel or the successful completion of the mission. The suggestion that these encounters were planned, that the RAF were patrolling to detect them, and that they were sinking the fishing vessels involved is, I think, wholly incredible.
Stovepipe wrote: » Germany had plenty of sympathisers in Ireland. When pows were given parole to go to Dublin to study, and lot of people were eager to host them. If a German with connections had escaped, it wouldn't have been impossible to hide in the population. The ports were tightly controlled so access to ships was difficult but not impossible. It wasn't until later in the war and rationing began to bite that public sympathy for Germany faded.
whisky_galore wrote: » Getting off the island is still a problem. Afaik no one made a home run to Germany from Ireland during the conflict. Why would you want to anyway? Good food (compared to German rationing), no one shooting at you, opportunities for study, pubs, dances and women? Great place to sit it out. You would need to be one deranged committed Nazi to want to escape especially later in the war.
Edgware wrote: » No sense glorifying Collins and saying that he would not have entered WW2. ( he signed a Treaty agreeing to let Britain have the Ports so getting them back was not his priority) We just dont know what he would have done in the 20s and we could have had a decade of civil war but this time between the hopelessly armed Free State against a British backed U.V.F. If we had entered on behalf of the Allies we certainly would have been subject to a lot more bombing by the Luftwaffe. We would also have been able to receive massive support from the Marshall Plan as part of the rebuilding of Europe. Its hard to estimate the human cost but it would probably run into tens of thousands
Edgware wrote: » . . . If we had entered on behalf of the Allies we certainly would have been subject to a lot more bombing by the Luftwaffe. We would also have been able to receive massive support from the Marshall Plan as part of the rebuilding of Europe.
AMKC wrote: » Such a pity that De Velera was not shot in 1916. Some lucky alternate reality got that one. We unfortunatly had to suffer him for many more decades to come.i am glad it was not De Velera that declared a Republic. It should have been Micheal Collins that got that honour but because of the civil war and some of De Veleras goones killing Collins he never did. Do I think Collins would have let the British use bases in Ireland during WW2 no not a hope not unless there was a big payment for it and I doubt there would have been as every cent Britain had then was going to the war effort. Its not like it would have benefitted Britain much anyway. Maybe a few naval bases on the west coast might have but that's about it.
breezy1985 wrote: » I don't understand why people are assuming it would be Collins in charge during the war if De Valera was dead. Collins would have lead CnG/FG who probably would still have lost the elections after 10+ years in charge and someone would have emerged to challenge them. I'm not sure who maybe Aiken, Lemass or most likely O'Kelly but someone would have gotten the better of CnG
Larbre34 wrote: » When the US entered the War in Dec 41, Ireland should have declared war on Germany and facilitated US and Canadian forces (and free French, Polish etc) to conduct operations against the Axis powers, all in exchange for reunification of the island. Ireland as a base would have enabled significant force projection for the War in the north and mid Atlantic, and would likely have turned the tide against the Nazi submarine Wolf packs and enabled faster build up of US food and weapons products in Europe. Who knows, they could have taken a year or more off the War.
spring lane jack wrote: » Dev could have lost it altogether and joined the Axis. Imagine the big stupid head on him next to Il Duce and the Fuhrer. The Brits would have absolutely flipped and probably would have occupied us again. We would have been seen as total scum to the rest of the English speaking world.
Peregrinus wrote: » Oh, gosh, we're into historical what-ifs here, which are fun but pointless. If Collins had survived and Dev have died we can't assume that there would ahve been any elections to lose; on the pro-Treaty side, Collins might well have become Ireland's Mussolini, and we could have had an effective one-party state by the mid-20s. On the other side, with no Dev, even if Ireland wasn't a one-party state by then, who's to say that Fianna Fáil or an FF equivalent would have split from SF and entered the Dáil in 1927, or ever?
breezy1985 wrote: » The whole premise of the thread is a historical what if
Peregrinus wrote: » Yes, I know. But what-ifs are only interesting if the what-if is at least modestly plausible, so we can rationally consider how it might have played out. Dev aligning Ireland with the Axis is so wildly unmoored in any kind of reality that a world in which that could have happened is so radically different from our own that we cannot really talk about what would have ensued. "What if Dev had aligned Ireland with the Axis?" is pretty much on a par with "What if Chamberlain had aligned the UK with the Axis?" In both cases, to consider the hypothesis in any meaningful way you have to consider why such a thing would have happened. Basic facts would have to have been very different before either leader would have considered such a course of action and, if basic facts were that different, then the what-if largely becomes teasing out the other consequences of such a difference. The circumstances which might have lead Dev to join the Axis would certainly mean that Dev joining the Axis — and many other things — would have played out very differently. The interesting what-ifs are the ones that might, plausibly, have happened in our world. What if the UK had not handed back the treaty ports in 1938? What if someone other than Churchill had become PM on Chamberlain's resignation? What if Hitler had not declared war on the US in December 1941? If Collins has survived but Dev has not, then the whole civil war and its aftermath plays out differently. The way you frame the question suggests that you assume that FF would have emerged anyway, and there would have been elections which FF would have won at about the same time that they did, in fact, win elections. But, really, in the scenario we are considering we have no reason to think that either of these things would have happened.
