What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

Wibbs wrote: »

Poverty and lack of education go up because of multiculturalism, particularly with some demographics and this is seen wherever the politic is in play and with the same demographics. And we're not just talking about actual asylum seekers and refugees here. In a UCD study it was found: O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets. 60% out of work in receipt of social support. Over half. And the majority of them came here not through the asylum process(where today most are refused), but on the back of the birthright citizenship loophole in the early 2000's. We've already imported an underclass. If that loophole hadn't been there we would have many thousands less on the dole. That's a fair chunk of change.

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

bubblypop wrote: »

in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

Is there another reason for them to be in Ireland? What have you learned from your African friends? What brought them here?

bubblypop wrote: »

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

We only closed that loophole 16 years ago, we're only now seeing the fruits of that with the now teenage gang issues that commonly are brought up on this site, Now we're discussing the abuse of the DP system to allow more in without visas through the back door.

The reality of it is, in legal visa based immigration we decline the majority of people from countries like Nigeria , the decline rates are much higher among African countries due to not being able to establish their legality to be here.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/nearly-16000-people-refused-visas-22066540

Last year, there were 7,597 visa applications from Nigeria. However, just 4,126 of those – or 54.3% – were granted.

It was a similar story with applications from Sudan, where only 58% of almost 2,000 applications for a visa were approved.

The approval rate in Sierra Leone was only slightly higher with 70 out of 116 (60.3%) of applications successful according to the records.

Other countries do not present as much of an issue because theyre not trying to access Ireland with ill intentions :

The largest number of applications – just over 37,000 – came from India. The grant rate for people from that country was 96%, the Department of Justice said.

The next highest number of visa requests emanated from China. There were 22,990 in total and 96.5% of them were successful.

The third highest number of applications came from Russia and of the 18,551 visa requests processed from that country, 96.6% were granted.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

But that avenue is not there any longer, in order for Africans to move to Ireland they must either have a visa allowing them to, or be an asylum seeker or be a refugee.

So your point is moot

The point is anything but moot, it illustrates very well the innate problem with the subject of this thread, that is multiculturalism. We've already imported an underclass numbering in the many thousands. We shouldn't be trying to import more. Indeed I'd be looking to incentives to remove the ones already here.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

We only closed that loophole 16 years ago, we're only now seeing the fruits of that with the now teenage gang issues that commonly are brought up on this site, Now we're discussing the abuse of the DP system to allow more in without visas through the back door.

The reality of it is, in legal visa based immigration we decline the majority of people from countries like Nigeria , the decline rates are much higher among African countries due to not being able to establish their legality to be here.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/nearly-16000-people-refused-visas-22066540

Other countries do not present as much of an issue because theyre not trying to access Ireland with ill intentions :

Yes, so now it's closed.
And sorry but 'teenage gangs' have always been around, they are not the big bad mafia, there have been gangs from different areas in Dublin meeting for organised fights as long as I'm in Dublin.

If our system works properly then bogus asylum seekers do not get to stay.

biko wrote: »

Is there another reason for them to be in Ireland? What have you learned from your African friends? What brought them here?

What have I learned from any friends?
I'm not sure what your point is.
This is a discussion board, I'm not here trying to prove a thesis.

I understand that you, in particular, do not seem to support any type of immigration. I don't have an issue with multiculturalism.

Wibbs wrote: »

The point is anything but moot, it illustrates very well the innate problem with the subject of this thread, that is multiculturalism. We've already imported an underclass numbering in the many thousands. We shouldn't be trying to import more. Indeed I'd be looking to incentives to remove the ones already here.

I think we should be trying to encourage people to get educated, or get a vocation. If they country actually rewarded workers, things would start to change. I don't care what skin colour, religion or background anyone has, they're all the same.
Reward work, do not reward layabouts.

The politics that invite people that can't get work because they have no marketable skills is directly responsible for the fallout crimes and other problems, as are the voters for said politics.

Thelonious Monk

You're all gonna love this, lol

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1344023939958321153

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

You're all gonna love this, lol

https://twitter.com/rte/status/1344023939958321153

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

Thelonious Monk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

I could only bear 10 seconds of it, it's awful. I just love how much it's annoying the commenters on Twitter.
Actually the comments from both sides are just bizarre.

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I could only bear 10 seconds of it, it's awful. I just love how much it's annoying the commenters on Twitter.
Actually the comments from both sides are just bizarre.

Her music isn't quite to my taste, but still talented.
Why people seem to think that her and Sharon Shannen can't work together because its 'Irish trad' is beyond me, music cannot be 'appropriated' otherwise the half of Kingston would be bitter about UB40.

Yellow_Fern

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her music isn't quite to my taste, but still talented.
Why people seem to think that her and Sharon Shannen can't work together because its 'Irish trad' is beyond me, music cannot be 'appropriated' otherwise the half of Kingston would be bitter about UB40.

I saw the two of them perform on the Late Late. Tubridy seemed a bit less sober than usual and referred to the music fusion as "progressive". I suspect for him having Shannan and Denise play together is a political statement but for musicians, this kind of fusions etc is the normal course of things. Music is constantly evolving and it is a myth that traditional Irish music is somehow insular. Look at how bouzouki and the guitar entered trad in the 20th cen. People complaining about that are as bad as yanks telling us sushi is cultural appropriation.

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

One eyed Jack

biko wrote: »

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

That’s a bit of a reach? From the article itself -

July 2007: Lars Vilks, a Swedish conceptual artist, writer, sculptor and professor of art theory, produces a series of caricatures of the prophet Mohammed.

He says his intention is to explore the boundaries of political correctness, noting that artists have tended to shy away from challenging Islam.

I’d suggest he was attempting to troll people myself and couch it as some sort of intellectual endeavour, but either way whatever we might call it, it seems his question was answered - there are extremists in any ideology who will take things to, well, extremes.

Are ordinary people, whichever way they may lean politically, responsible for the behaviour of extremists? I would suggest they’re not, because everyone is personally responsible for their own behaviour towards others, and when it comes to extremists that same standard still applies.

The troll is responsible for their behaviour, the extremists are responsible for theirs. Disproportionate and unnecessary behaviour is rewarded with disproportionate and unnecessary behaviour from the people they’ve chosen to troll. It doesn’t give the troll any legitimacy to portray themselves as a victim IMO.

biko wrote: »

The price of multiculturalism is higher for some.
Samuel Paty, recently murdered for showing non-Muslims cartoons of Mohammad.
Lars Vilks, painted Mohammad in 2007. 13 years later still has police escort everywhere he goes and probably will have for life.
https://www.channel4.com/news/lars-vilks-the-artist-with-the-target-painted-on-his-back

This is the real backside of exotic food and whatnot the left can dream up as justifications for inviting Islam.

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

Wibbs

bubblypop wrote: »

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

Indeed and a very simple question yet again; why do we want to import more and different and seemingly intractable social problems on top of the existing ones?

Wibbs wrote: »

Poverty and lack of education go up because of multiculturalism, particularly with some demographics and this is seen wherever the politic is in play and with the same demographics. And we're not just talking about actual asylum seekers and refugees here. In a UCD study it was found: O’Connell and Kenny (2017) show that only about 40% of adult African nationals in Ireland are employed, far less than the average for Irish natives or for other immigrant groups. They also suffer much higher rates of unemployment than the national average. The pattern is similar in other European labour markets. 60% out of work in receipt of social support. Over half. And the majority of them came here not through the asylum process(where today most are refused), but on the back of the birthright citizenship loophole in the early 2000's. We've already imported an underclass. If that loophole hadn't been there we would have many thousands less on the dole. That's a fair chunk of change.

Wibbs wrote: »

Ghettoisation, the rise in identity politics, rise in racism, the importation of mores and attitudes that are contrary to liberal western thought(that was hard won on the backs of the corpses of millions), increased chances of radicalism on both sides, increased social tensions, increased unemployment, a confusion in education and employment standards, lack of integration among groups, less social cohesion, an addition of another underclass on top of existing ones, increased costs in education and social welfare, competition for housing at the lower end of society, which in turn increases sovereign debt because that has to be paid for. And all of the above gets worse over time and generations.

These are demonstrable consequences of modern European multiculturalism and occur wherever this politic and social experiment plays out. Again pick any European nation operating multiculturalism and show me an outlier. There isn't one. I know it's not a comfortable conclusion to come to and it isn't for me either FWIW, but it's the logical one.

bubblypop wrote: »

Will you stop!
Steve Collins and his family were under protection for years in this country because of threats from Irish crime families.

How are these two even remotely related?

Tell me how

Wibbs wrote: »

Indeed and a very simple question yet again; why do we want to import more and different and seemingly intractable social problems on top of the existing ones?

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants.

That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms.

Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland.

There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

That's the point really.. and the one that the pro-multiculturalism crowd can't seem to accept about those concerned with immigration.

We like those who enter legally. We like those who have stable homes. We like those who seek to improve themselves, and actually, try to involve themselves in the culture of their host country. If only we could encourage migration from families similar in background to theirs....

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

And those benefits are? No.. not food, or some vague sense of cultural interexchange which seems so hard to quantify (based on the past posts about such a thing).

What are the proven benefits to European nations? (since they've been doing this for longer, so it should be easy to show the practical obvious benefits versus the costs involved)

Some people believe immigrants are high skilled workers here to fix things.
At the same time highly skilled Irish left because there was no employment for them here.

Irish leave, immigrants come. That is apparently a benefit and the immigrants are not taking local jobs at all.

Remember, some people think that because their office employs an African cleaner they are helping to heal the world somehow.

One eyed Jack

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Hmm... I’d more accurately have suggested that it’s hoped that in the long term it’s entirely beneficial to a country’s economy to take in immigrants, as opposed to entertaining the idea of assuming that immigrants should be perceived as detracting from a society. If preparation however is poor, then failure is inevitable, and that’s what we’re witnessing in other countries. Unfortunately, successive Irish Governments have failed to adequately prepare for immigrants or provide for them to be able to integrate into Irish society. That’s not immigrants fault, it’s the fault of the Irish Government - their policies inevitably lead to failure and it’s not just immigrants who they fail, but they also fail Irish society as a whole.

biko wrote: »

It might surprise some people to learn that according to IMF data, over 20 per cent of Ireland’s working population is comprised of immigrants.

That’s a bigger proportion than in the UK or US where, of course, immigration is causing deep and profound political schisms.

Angela Merkel may have caused uproar by taking in a million and more refugees over the past couple of years but Germany still has a smaller migrant workforce than does Ireland.

There are no downsides with this at all, nope, none.

Immigration isn’t what’s causing the deep political schism - people who are both for and against the idea, or have their own ideas, are what causes deep political schisms.

I’m not sure what the point is about the comparison between migrants in the workforce, or what downside you’re pointing to?

Are the “political schisms” today any more extreme than they have been in the past? I don’t think so, but just to give an example -

When fear and hatred of Irish Catholics set fire to an American city

Only 20% of the population in the US are Catholic, but they have managed to integrate themselves into every facet of American society, in spite of the “deep political schisms” that existed then, and still exist today.

There’s a downside of course if you go looking for them and assuming the worst of immigrants and are determined that they should never be given opportunities to better themselves or to make a life for themselves on an equal footing as anyone else in society, but for all their poor implementation of existing policies, I don’t imagine the Irish Government policy is to intentionally drive our economy into the shìtter. That’s a result of poor policy implementation, not immigration.

Wibbs

Tell me how wrote: »

The very simple answer is the benefits outweigh the negatives.

List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread.

So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.

dominatinMC

Wibbs wrote: »

List them please. The negatives it seems are easy to list and easy to demonstrate with it, the positives not so easy going by this thread.

So benefits beyond charity, exoticism and cheap labour where applicable? The floor is yours.

Looking forward to this list...if it ever materialises

46 Long

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Her father is a doctor, came in legally , she identifies as Zimbabwean-Irish and is a talented musician and college educated.

Shes a really good example of the type of migrant that we do welcome to Ireland.

I could do without her passive-aggressive bullshít to be honest. Wonder how the Zimbabweans would react if a Sinead/Sorcha/Aoife/Caoimhe took up residence in Harare and started rapping at the natives for pronouncing her name wrong.