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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

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Kraftwerk

Frankie Machine wrote: »

We can all read for ourselves what was said.

You quoted another person who posted as follows -

There's a very clear picture being painted of the difference between past and present in those words there.

So when you retort with a contrary view that

... it's perfectly valid for others to assume that you are challenging that picture.

That's why more than one of us did so.

You created the context within which to read your words, by including the quote in the first place.

It's out of order accusing people of lying just because you failed to express yourself as you wished.

In the context of the words you quoted, and other observations about referenda etc, your point about schools is not really impactful.

In the context of a discussion on whether we'd ever return to the levels of influence the church once had I made a factual statement on how the church hasn't gone away and still has influence in response to a post that said we would never again return to the levels of influence the church once had. There's no absolutes on that. As we've seen plenty in recent years strange things can happen and happen fast. The church is still very much involved and relevant in Irish society and were there to be a shift back towards religious conservatism they are ideally placed at the moment to take advantage of that.

And I expressed myself perfectly fine. The lack of ability to understand or the desperation to argue at all costs on the part of other posters is no fault of mine.

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

Off the top of my head, indonesia, Kosovo, Albania.

I'm guessing that you have never lived in any of the Countrys you have mentioned? If you were to pick the most severe form of Islam ( Saudi Arabia Wahabbis , from who isis borrow their brand of extremism ) and put it at the top of the world scale of hardline Islam, at the very bottom of the scale, you will find Kosovo and Albanian Islam. Historically, Hoxa in Albania and Tito in ther former YU, kept a tight control...Islamism was not an issue. And their legacy is still in evidence. So Islam and sharia are not the force that they are in other Countrys., and especially like Indonesia... My advice to you if considering holidaying or visiting any part of Indonesia, do your research before you go.......and under no circumstances fall foul of Sharia law while there. Hereunder is an excerpt from an Indomesian friend of mine. The background was a Christian living in the same place as her, was brutally murdered. The police quickly caught the murderer, and jailed him, but then released him. There was a huge outcry, and the police again arrested him, and brought him to trial eventually.. Against all the odds, he was convicted and hanged.
And her advice. on Islam Quote:- On an individual level, a Muslim could be a good friend but not the authority, the system, the laws always sides the Muslims. But I repeat, one day you will be the same as us, a minority in your own country. Too many Muslim migrants in the west now. Good luck and may your children and grandchildren have a safe life in future.

biko

Jews and their culture have managed very well in Ireland, compared to UK, and their religion is quite different from ours.
There have been incidents of antisemitism but less here than other places.

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2015-antisemitism-update_en.pdf

jay0109

Multiculturalism is alive and well based on tonight's episode of Crime Call on RTE!

[Deleted User]

jmreire wrote: »

I'm guessing that you have never lived in any of the Countrys you have mentioned? If you were to pick the most severe form of Islam ( Saudi Arabia Wahabbis , from who isis borrow their brand of extremism ) and put it at the top of the world scale of hardline Islam, at the very bottom of the scale, you will find Kosovo and Albanian Islam. Historically, Hoxa in Albania and Tito in ther former YU, kept a tight control...Islamism was not an issue. And their legacy is still in evidence. So Islam and sharia are not the force that they are in other Countrys., and especially like Indonesia... My advice to you if considering holidaying or visiting any part of Indonesia, do your research before you go.......and under no circumstances fall foul of Sharia law while there. Hereunder is an excerpt from an Indomesian friend of mine. The background was a Christian living in the same place as her, was brutally murdered. The police quickly caught the murderer, and jailed him, but then released him. There was a huge outcry, and the police again arrested him, and brought him to trial eventually.. Against all the odds, he was convicted and hanged.
And her advice. on Islam Quote:- On an individual level, a Muslim could be a good friend but not the authority, the system, the laws always sides the Muslims. But I repeat, one day you will be the same as us, a minority in your own country. Too many Muslim migrants in the west now. Good luck and may your children and grandchildren have a safe life in future.

I have indeed lived in one of those countries mentioned. And I don't need any of that advise, thanks.

[Deleted User]

Kraftwerk wrote: »

Another poster desperate to argue.

We're on a discussion board. Get over yourself. If you don't want arguments, what are you doing here?

The other post may have been true but it had nothing to do with me or what I wrote because I didn't say what that poster was arguing against. Perhaps you'd all like to go pvt for your little circle jerk given its got nothing to do with me?

My post related to both what he and you wrote. If you don't want to deal with it, that's on you, in spite of your desire to dismiss others opinions.

There was nothing wrong with the logic of my post. Its a fact that the RCC control 90% of schools. Its logical to conclude that a church in control of 90% of the school and who 80% of the population still consider themselves part of are not without influence. While its not the influence they once had and it seems to be changing more and more that's not to say those days are gone forever when a huge proportion of the population still consider themselves part of that religion.

The only logic that people went to those schools, not that it supported the narrative you put forward. Control and influence. Your words.

Bah. You're not even bothering to defend your own statements, just deflecting away from it.

Kraftwerk

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We're on a discussion board. Get over yourself. If you don't want arguments, what are you doing here?

The key is in the name. Discussion... Board... You don't always have to have an enemy and every post doesn't always have to be an attack.

My post related to both what he and you wrote. If you don't want to deal with it, that's on you, in spite of your desire to dismiss others opinions.

The only logic that people went to those schools, not that it supported the narrative you put forward. Control and influence. Your words.

Bah. You're not even bothering to defend your own statements, just deflecting away from it.

For a lot of talking you don't actually manage to say much. Which isn't surprising as you don't seem to know the difference between a discussion and an argument.

I've defended everything and even restated what I've said and deflected nothing. I'll restate it again for a third or fourth time given you're struggling.

In response to someone who said the Irish people have had enough of religious interference and will never again be influenced to the same degree as before I pointed out that 90% of the schools here are currently controlled by the church. That they still have influence and its not guaranteed to stay as it is. This is a logical statement.

To take up that other point given a few people have brought it up. Those referendums people keep mentioning as proof that Ireland has irreversibly changed had around 40% of the population against them if I recall correctly. 90% schools controlled by the church, 80% of people consider themselves Catholic, 40% voted against same sex marriage and abortion. That's not an insignificant number and you can be sure the churches influence is a sizable portion of those people.

While things are changing and I believe they will continue to change there's no guarantee that we're free from dangerous levels of religious influence forever more and no other religious will be able to influence anything here.

And the irony of you saying I'm dismissing others opinions when the best you can manage is "bah, you're just deflecting".

RoyalCelt

I believe who we should pick and choose. Europeans in general whether British, French, German, Eastern euro or Italians have all integrated very well. After the rocky start I'm very impressed with Eastern Europeans. They hold onto their traditions but are also proud to have their kids take on ours. I suspect it's because they'd want other nationalities to act the same if they moved to Eastern Europe.

But all those lazy scrounging ****s, and we all know who they are should be turned away from Ireland at every opportunity.

And as a country rapidly turning secular where religion isn't holding us back I'm strongly against taking in people who are ardent followers of religion themselves.

Kraftwerk

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I believe who we should pick and choose. Europeans in general whether British, French, German, Eastern euro or Italians have all integrated very well. After the rocky start I'm very impressed with Eastern Europeans. They hold onto their traditions but are also proud to have their kids take on ours. I suspect it's because they'd want other nationalities to act the same if they moved to Eastern Europe.

But all those lazy scrounging ****s, and we all know who they are should be turned away from Ireland at every opportunity.

And as a country rapidly turning secular where religion isn't holding us back I'm strongly against taking in people who are ardent followers of religion themselves.

I agree that Europeans integrate better but I'm not sure who exactly the lazy scrounging ****s are.

jmreire

bubblypop wrote: »

I have indeed lived in one of those countries mentioned. And I don't need any of that advise, thanks.

Advice was given in good faith, after I made my point and it's up to you after that. Care to mention which Country you were in, and for how long?

[Deleted User]

RoyalCelt wrote: »

But all those lazy scrounging ****s, and we all know who they are should be turned away from Ireland at every opportunity.

A system that places the importance of skills/education, along with their potential ability to help the nation, would work to weed out such. The problem being a lack of focus in expecting migrants to be useful, as opposed to showing virtue by taking them in.

Also the lack of a system to get migrants productive in the shortest period of time, tied to proving their eligibility to stay after their application is made, would also help with any such problems. We need to monitor the behavior of migrants after the arrive, helping them to integrate, but also helping them to gain work that will ensure they can live independently. Fact is, migrants shouldn't be given access to welfare or any government supplements until they've proven themselves through their payments to the tax system.

But the focus should be on integration. Taking in the people most interested in becoming Irish... not simply economic immigrants seeking to make a living.

Skilled/educated migrants will continue to enter due to the demands of employment, and typically, they don't remain in a country after their work period/visa's are ended. After all, they can get work easily enough due to their experience.

So.. nope. I do think we should continue to allow in non-western nationalities into Ireland, but by being more pragmatic, and ensuring that these migrants are aware that they're on a trial to prove themselves worthy of staying.

Wibbs

Kraftwerk wrote: »

In the context of a discussion on whether we'd ever return to the levels of influence the church once had I made a factual statement on how the church hasn't gone away and still has influence in response to a post that said we would never again return to the levels of influence the church once had. There's no absolutes on that. As we've seen plenty in recent years strange things can happen and happen fast. The church is still very much involved and relevant in Irish society and were there to be a shift back towards religious conservatism they are ideally placed at the moment to take advantage of that.

While it's possible K, I'd be dumbfounded if it were to happen. Having being a child in the 70's I'm just old enough to remember the old days of church influence here and the difference between then and now is stark. I remember priests regularly on the telly and radio giving their opinions. For me anyway I'd see the pope's visit as one of the last gasps of that Ireland and a few years later the moving statues its death rattle. By the mid 80's the abuse scandals were starting to come out and the hypocrisy of cover ups across the board. Even at the time that feeling of ah me bollex to that was very strong among my peers and even among parents of peers. By the 90's older people I'd known who were mass every sunday people just started to drift away and maybe only show up for high days and holy days.

Put it another way; in 79 two and a half million Irish people went to see the pope, when the current one showed up a few years ago as part of an event(not even the headliner) there was plenty of spare capacity at Croke park.

Yes the SSM/Divorce/Abortion referenda were not the landslides some seem to think and certainly some holdover of church influence was present, particularly in the elderly, but 50 years ago even the thought of holding referenda on those matters would have had every cassock rattling from every pulpit at the very suggestion. Plus for many who said nay to any of the above it wasn't necessarily for religious reasons. Hell I personally know an avowed atheist who is pro life and homophobes wouldn't exactly be that rare.

Scoondal

RoyalCelt wrote: »

I believe who we should pick and choose. Europeans in general whether British, French, German, Eastern euro or Italians have all integrated very well. After the rocky start I'm very impressed with Eastern Europeans. They hold onto their traditions but are also proud to have their kids take on ours. I suspect it's because they'd want other nationalities to act the same if they moved to Eastern Europe.

But all those lazy scrounging ****s, and we all know who they are should be turned away from Ireland at every opportunity.

And as a country rapidly turning secular where religion isn't holding us back I'm strongly against taking in people who are ardent followers of religion themselves.

Aw, my wife's country didn't make it onto your list. I will send her back to the ****hole from which she came. She will pack her bags tomorrow.

Sand

Wibbs wrote: »

While it's possible K, I'd be dumbfounded if it were to happen.

I'm not personally religious, but I don't necessarily think its a good thing for a society to become dismissive of any authority or reckoning beyond themselves. Even apart from the considerations of morality, one has to remember barbaric medieval Europe built beautiful cathedrals in praise of God that even non-believers visit to find some beauty and peace. Modern, progressive Europe builds soulless council flats and apartments that are inherently ugly. The cathedrals took decades to build, those who started them would never see the finished building. Now we throw up near identical ugly buildings in weeks or month. The former are a product of hope inherent to belief, the latter is not.

And if we've learned anything it is that power vacuums do not exist. Power never vanishes, it simply flows from one group to another. Removing the Catholic Church doesn't reduce moralizing, pontificating, corruption or persecution of unbelievers. It simply changes who is doing it. The various progressive/liberal NGOs and true believers have stepped in to fill every gap vacated by the bishops and they are just as fanatical and domineering as any Christian Brother. I dont necessarily have belief in God, but I'd prefer the idealogical fanatics dictating government policy at least recognize there is some authority above them and their own personal beliefs. That was part of the charm of Christianity.

seenitall

^I know it’s Christmas Eve and all, and so I’m going to be blaspheming now, but the older I get, the less I understand the need for people to believe in a God, especially a monotheistic, fatherly, authoritative one. Or maybe it’s the feminist in me!

I’m perfectly capable of being my own authority, thank you very much. Why would you want to subject yourself to the judgmental view of some guy in the sky? Life is so short, why not live an enjoyment-rich, adventure-filled, exhilarating, passionate, rule-breaking, free-spirited one?

I have a friend who has converted to Fundi Christianity (she’s Saved!) and it really opened my eyes to the pitfalls of religion. From being a girl who used to share my views above, at the age of 26 she became a woman trapped in her own mind, with bigotry and a daily prayer schedule for some of her constant companions. Bashing homosexuality, among many other sinful things, and rejecting to “believe” in the evolution is seemingly where it’s at. I don’t know who feels more sorry for who: she for me, being convinced I’ll be going straight to hell, or me for her, for living a life built on utter delusion and spiritual destitution. How sad.

Religion is a judgment- and shaming-filled authoritarian scourge.

Happy Christmas, everyone!

holayadios

KungPao wrote: »

It doesn’t work. And I’m sad to see the Ireland I grew up in lose it’s character.

If you come here, integrate.

Hello, could you be a little bit more specific? I mean integration, in which way? language, customs?

MagoP

holayadios wrote: »

Hello, could you be a little bit more specific? I mean integration, in which way? language, customs?

The language thing drives me mad. I know lads here ten years and still barely speak English and hang around with only others from their own country. Like make an effort to speak the f*cking language.

seenitall

I find some people are absolutely cloth-eared when it comes to learning a different language, even one as simple to learn as English is. I know a woman who is here years, attends the English Language classes with the greatest enthusiasm, yet is still unable to string a proper sentence together. It’s just jumbled up words coming out on top of one another, so it’s left to her interlocutor to figure out what she is trying to say. But this mess of words is delivered with such speed and zest and enthusiasm to communicate, that it ends up leaving me with quite a comical impression of incongruity.

(Unwillingness to speak the language as part and parcel of a refusal to integrate is a different issue to the above, of course.)

[Deleted User]

seenitall wrote: »

I find some people are absolutely cloth-eared when it comes to learning a different language, even one as simple to learn as English is.

English is not a simple language to learn. There are plenty of confusing grammar structures along with oddball pronunciation of letters/words. It's a mismash of languages. You're making the mistake that most native speakers make... you obviously haven't taught English to another person before. It's the same with Chinese people who think Mandarin is easy.. because it's their own language. When it comes to actually teaching it, the frustration kicks in hard.

And that's the basics. Heading into total fluency with a reasonable degree of accuracy is hard, with professional English being even more difficult.

Nah. I have a lot of sympathy for anyone learning English. It's certainly not simple.

jmreire

seenitall wrote: »

^I know it’s Christmas Eve and all, and so I’m going to be blaspheming now, but the older I get, the less I understand the need for people to believe in a God, especially a monotheistic, fatherly, authoritative one. Or maybe it’s the feminist in me!

I’m perfectly capable of being my own authority, thank you very much. Why would you want to subject yourself to the judgmental view of some guy in the sky? Life is so short, why not live an enjoyment-rich, adventure-filled, exhilarating, passionate, rule-breaking, free-spirited one?

I have a friend who has converted to Fundi Christianity (she’s Saved!) and it really opened my eyes to the pitfalls of religion. From being a girl who used to share my views above, at the age of 26 she became a woman trapped in her own mind, with bigotry and a daily prayer schedule for some of her constant companions. Bashing homosexuality, among many other sinful things, and rejecting to “believe” in the evolution is seemingly where it’s at. I don’t know who feels more sorry for who: she for me, being convinced I’ll be going straight to hell, or me for her, for living a life built on utter delusion and spiritual destitution. How sad.

Religion is a judgment- and shaming-filled authoritarian scourge.

Happy Christmas, everyone!

That's one of the benefits of living in a democratic Country like Ireland,,,you are free to live an enjoyment-rich, adventure-filled, exhilarating, passionate, rule-breaking, free-spirited one, just as your friend is free to live a manner she is obviously very happy to do. The days of the RCC controlling this Country, are by now history, but even so if it were not for Covid, the Church's where I live would be packed at Christmas. And while not matching the Christmas / Easter Nrs, there's still good Nrs attending Mass each Sunday and feast days too. Another positive of democracy in action. There are Countrys where this is not possible.
Many Happy Returns !!!

:):)

Yellow_Fern

jmreire wrote: »

That's one of the benefits of living in a democratic Country like Ireland,,,you are free to live an enjoyment-rich, adventure-filled, exhilarating, passionate, rule-breaking, free-spirited one, just as your friend is free to live a manner she is obviously very happy to do. The days of the RCC controlling this Country, are by now history, but even so if it were not for Covid, the Church's where I live would be packed at Christmas. And while not matching the Christmas / Easter Nrs, there's still good Nrs attending Mass each Sunday and feast days too. Another positive of democracy in action. There are Countrys where this is not possible.
Many Happy Returns !!! :):)

Not really. From covid shutdowns to draconian anti alcohol, anti drug and anti smoking legislation (cool fact: there is nearly no academic evidence that passive smoking is harmful) Ireland in 2020 isn't very liberal and is a terrible place for free spirits.

ExMachina1000

We had a big push of multiculturalism years back. Ended up changing the spoken language

Dyr

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

We had a big push of multiculturalism years back. Ended up changing the spoken language

Nicely integrated foew counties up North too.

What Europe really needs is to wind up like the Balkans, apparently

seenitall

Deleted User wrote: »

English is not a simple language to learn. There are plenty of confusing grammar structures along with oddball pronunciation of letters/words. It's a mismash of languages. You're making the mistake that most native speakers make... you obviously haven't taught English to another person before. It's the same with Chinese people who think Mandarin is easy.. because it's their own language. When it comes to actually teaching it, the frustration kicks in hard.

And that's the basics. Heading into total fluency with a reasonable degree of accuracy is hard, with professional English being even more difficult.

Nah. I have a lot of sympathy for anyone learning English. It's certainly not simple.

Ok, as a non-native speaker, I do disagree with that. I come from a Slavic language which is notoriously hard to learn, if you want to talk about difficult grammar structures. Three genders, with seven cases of declension and all different suffixes belonging to them as well. One thing we at least don’t have is articles - which the German language has, for example, for each of the three genders, and then the appropriate declension (4 cases) makes them into different words. I struggled with German on account of that, in the main. It’s a helluva language to learn if you want to speak it properly. French was much easier to learn, grammar-wise (as I suspect all Latin languages to be), although there is the peculiarity with the spoken French language of wordsflowingintoeachother with lots of homophones, so I have found some really careful listening skills with a liberal use of my powers of deduction had to be employed. English was by far the easiest. By far. Only one set of articles, no suffixes in any parts of speech for cases of declension, it’s a huge change in the complexity of the grammar structure. A doddle, tbh. Ok I did start to learn it at a young age and all, but still, I’d be very surprised if you didn’t have any person coming from a foreign language background tell you that the English language was one of the easiest for them to learn.

I know an Irish and an English guy back home, both married to my compatriots, who, after decades of toil and struggle with trying to learn the language, have both thrown in the towel, the last I heard. I know exactly how complex the language is and that’s why it doesn’t surprise me, for people coming from English.

jmreire

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Not really. From covid shutdowns to draconian anti alcohol, anti drug and anti smoking legislation (cool fact: there is nearly no academic evidence that passive smoking is harmful) Ireland in 2020 isn't very liberal and is a terrible place for free spirits.

First Covid shutdowns:
After the last shutdown and re-opening, the Covid figures have escalated again and very quickly at that. So take your choice, open up the economy, and saturate the hospitals to breaking point with Covid patients. A Nursing friend of mine work's in such a hospital, and aside from Covid, they have 120 Patients they are trying to find beds for at this moment.
Alcohol is still freely available, even if the pubs are presently restricted / shut, due to covid.
I dont know about you, but I'll keep as far away as possible from smokers and smoke related places.And all the more so as an ex smoker. The only thing that should be going into your lungs is fresh air. But again, smoking is not banned. anyone who wants to smoke is free to do so and they are freely available. ( even if they are not actualy free in the sense of cash)
Drugs. Yes drugs are banned. But still freely available, but like the cigarettes all you need is the cash. Around the world, drugs have destroyed many lives including here in Ireland, and are doing it the present day. Walk around Dublin and you will see the effects of drugs and drug wars, Its not a pretty sight.
So yes, its possible to be a free spirit here in Ireland. There are other Countrys where the entire concept of "Free Spirit" cannot be found.

biko

seenitall wrote: »

I know an Irish and an English guy back home, both married to my compatriots, who, after decades of toil and struggle with trying to learn the language, have both thrown in the towel, the last I heard. I know exactly how complex the language is and that’s why it doesn’t surprise me, for people coming from English.

I've lived temporarily in several countries and always tried to learn a small bit of the language.
When the natives see that I am at least trying they warm to me quicker than if I'd just say "Do you speak English?" immediately.

If I moved long-term anywhere it would be because I loved the place so learning their ways would be easier.

I expect people moving long-term to Ireland to do so because they love it here and want to join the Irish community.
If that isn't the case then I don't see any reason for them to be here.
If they don't try to fit in then they should be someplace where they would like to fit in instead.

Wibbs

Slavic languages in general seem to be right buggers to learn alright. The Russians and Poles I know say they found English relatively easy to pick up, though all reckoned the exposure to english even at home through media helped there. One Ukrainian I know learned English and French and Spanish and she reckoned Spanish was by a long way the easiest, English was in the middle, but figures if she had to learn Ukrainian/Russian from scratch that would be the hardest, never mind having to deal with a different alphabet. Maybe that's why Slavic language natives tend to do better in picking up English than Latin speakers, at least in my experience. Their native language's complexity means they have more natural "horsepower" in their brain's language centres?

Native Arabic speakers can be similar I've found. But we digress...

seenitall

biko wrote: »

I've lived temporarily in several countries and always tried to learn a small bit of the language.
When the natives see that I am at least trying they warm to me quicker than if I'd just say "Do you speak English?" immediately.

If I moved long-term anywhere it would be because I loved the place so learning their ways would be easier.

I expect people moving long-term to Ireland to do so because they love it here and want to join the Irish community.
If that isn't the case then I don't see any reason for them to be here.
If they don't try to fit in then they should be someplace where they would like to fit in instead.

Well, love took these guys to live where they do... I guess they can’t help it if the complexity of the language has defeated them in the end. I’m sure they have some so-called passive knowledge of the language by now - the Irish guy runs, (what else

), an Irish pub, so he must have a good bit of connection to his social environment. The other thing is that English is everywhere in Europe now as a second language (or the first foreign language of choice to learn, if you will, and for good reason), so these guys get by very well I think (consequently lessening the urgency of need to learn the local language).

The kids in my country start learning English in school now at 6-7 years of age.

[Deleted User]

seenitall wrote: »

Ok, as a non-native speaker, I do disagree with that. I come from a Slavic language which is notoriously hard to learn, if you want to talk about difficult grammar structures. Three genders, with seven cases of declension and all different suffixes belonging to them as well. One thing we at least don’t have is articles - which the German language has, for example, for each of the three genders, and then the appropriate declension (4 cases) makes them into different words. I struggled with German on account of that, in the main. It’s a helluva language to learn if you want to speak it properly. French was much easier to learn, grammar-wise (as I suspect all Latin languages to be), although there is the peculiarity with the spoken French language of wordsflowingintoeachother with lots of homophones, so I have found some really careful listening skills with a liberal use of my powers of deduction had to be employed. English was by far the easiest. By far. Only one set of articles, no suffixes in any parts of speech for cases of declension, it’s a huge change in the complexity of the grammar structure. A doddle, tbh. Ok I did start to learn it at a young age and all, but still, I’d be very surprised if you didn’t have any person coming from a foreign language background tell you that the English language was one of the easiest for them to learn.

I know an Irish and an English guy back home, both married to my compatriots, who, after decades of toil and struggle with trying to learn the language, have both thrown in the towel, the last I heard. I know exactly how complex the language is and that’s why it doesn’t surprise me, for people coming from English.

I wasn't seeking to compare English with other languages. Nor talking about it as a competition.

I've taught English to Asian people for many years now, and it's not an easy language for them to acquire. Even after 7 years of formal schooling, before hitting advanced classes, most will struggle. I've seen similar results in Africa, where many will achieve the basics well enough, but struggle with the more advanced usage.

It's a lot like my own acquisition of Mandarin, which has gone through many rocky periods. Basic fluency was easy enough, but to achieve the cultural fluency for all situations, with more appropriate word choice for the particular situation, has taken far more actual work.. and a lot of frustration.

Which is why I think any migrants to Ireland should have fluent English before arriving, because I know that it take years to acquire any decent level, especially if it's required for working.

seenitall

Understood. It is, IME, a simpler, easier language to learn than some other European ones, then.