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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Fairly simple, it shows once again the inability of Sinn Fein to bring people with them even when those people agree with what Sinn Fein is trying to do.

A lack of leadership, a lack of empathy, unbridled arrogance, whatever it is, Sinn Fein constantly run into this problem.

What about the SDLP...did they fail too?

You are some chancer, out with the knife for your boogeymen...not a shred of criticism for the crowd who have used and abused their veto to block an abstract diluting of 'the Union'.

Good luck developing your alliance with them.

Junkyard Tom

I think the main lesson to be learned from DC and Blanch is that Unification will happen in spite of them rather than with their approval.

Those from a non Unionist/Protestant background are the demographic to target to get a pro-UI vote passed in the north.

BonnieSituation

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think the main lesson to be learned from DC and Blanch is that Unification will happen in spite of them rather than with their approval.

Those from a non Unionist/Protestant background are the demographic to target to get a pro-UI vote passed in the north.

That's always been the case. The disingenuous bigotry and partitionism is vomit-inducing. Leave them be.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think the main lesson to be learned from DC and Blanch is that Unification will happen in spite of them rather than with their approval.

Those from a non Unionist/Protestant background are the demographic to target to get a pro-UI vote passed in the north.

Tectonic plates are shifting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/time-to-open-the-debate-on-a-united-ireland-urges-stormont-politician-trevor-lunn-39884584.html?fbclid=IwAR3p9zf0YfDB6utzuEgmOpTx26dWewf7Fxu3NLnJHgj5LfTdRlXXkY0iAhc

The last to shift will be the partitionist and belligerent Unionist ones (which are fusing together as we type). And they'll probably spin it as their idea, in the end.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I think the main lesson to be learned from DC and Blanch is that Unification will happen in spite of them rather than with their approval.

Those from a non Unionist/Protestant background are the demographic to target to get a pro-UI vote passed in the north.

Haha You need to start with the 50% of nationalists who don't want a united island. They would be an easier sell

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tectonic plates are shifting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/time-to-open-the-debate-on-a-united-ireland-urges-stormont-politician-trevor-lunn-39884584.html?fbclid=IwAR3p9zf0YfDB6utzuEgmOpTx26dWewf7Fxu3NLnJHgj5LfTdRlXXkY0iAhc

The last to shift will be the partitionist and belligerent Unionist ones (which are fusing together as we type). And they'll probably spin it as their idea, in the end.

Hahaha Tectonic plates are shifting. One Alliance Party MLA (who i had never heard of) calls for the Irish government to prepare a paper on Unitied island to help him decide, because even he is currently pro-union. Haha hardly an earthquake, but I guess a straw for our fanciful resident republicans to grasp

pixelburp

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Tectonic plates are shifting.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/time-to-open-the-debate-on-a-united-ireland-urges-stormont-politician-trevor-lunn-39884584.html?fbclid=IwAR3p9zf0YfDB6utzuEgmOpTx26dWewf7Fxu3NLnJHgj5LfTdRlXXkY0iAhc

The last to shift will be the partitionist and belligerent Unionist ones (which are fusing together as we type). And they'll probably spin it as their idea, in the end.

“Don’t be afraid of offending unionism. Unionism is easily offended. They don’t speak for everybody up here.”

That's stating the obvious, albeit speaking to the harsher die hards presumably never to be convinced.

I do agree though that a discussion about what a united Ireland would look like is better started now, than in the white heat of bullshít that'll invariably crop up during any referenda, both sides of the border. Unionism would need to be included in the new world order, and letting the narrative get overrun by Tadhg scaremongering would leave the prospect of unification playing catch up. No more than in Scotland, independence will come with it the remaining strands of unionism

FrancieBrady

pixelburp wrote: »

“Don’t be afraid of offending unionism. Unionism is easily offended. They don’t speak for everybody up here.”

That's stating the obvious, albeit speaking to the harsher die hards presumably never to be convinced.

I do agree though that a discussion about what a united Ireland would look like is better started now, than in the white heat of bullshít that'll invariably crop up during any referenda, both sides of the border. Unionism would need to be included in the new world order, and letting the narrative get overrun by Tadhg scaremongering would leave the prospect of unification playing catch up. No more than in Scotland, independence will come with it the remaining strands of unionism

Downcow will handwave away the inevitability here like he did the Tory's shafting them and a border in the Irish Sea.

All still happened though.

trashcan

downcow wrote: »

Haha You need to start with the 50% of nationalists who don't want a united island. They would be an easier sell

If they don’t want a United Ireland they’re hardly nationalists are they ? By the definition of the term as its generally understood and used.

downcow

trashcan wrote: »

If they don’t want a United Ireland they’re hardly nationalists are they ? By the definition of the term as its generally understood and used.

Yeah, agree 100%. Its lazy pigeon holing. It would be much more accurate to refer to them as people raised in a nationalist community and who normally vote for parties who claim to be nationalist. Of course even those parties are not tru;y nationalist or they would be pushing hard for unification

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Fairly simple, it shows once again the inability of Sinn Fein to bring people with them even when those people agree with what Sinn Fein is trying to do.

A lack of leadership, a lack of empathy, unbridled arrogance, whatever it is, Sinn Fein constantly run into this problem.

I think Fine Gael regularly runs into this problem with the DUP. Remember Arlene Foster telling Enda Kenny to do one in the early days of Brexit!

FrancieBrady

trashcan wrote: »

If they don’t want a United Ireland they’re hardly nationalists are they ? By the definition of the term as its generally understood and used.

Nationalists - heads down at the minute, trying not to interrupt Unionists destroying the 'Union' themselves.

downcow

jm08 wrote: »

I think Fine Gael regularly runs into this problem with the DUP. Remember Arlene Foster telling Enda Kenny to do one in the early days of Brexit!

I think his point was that sf can’t get anyone on board with them. Even the alliance party

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nationalists - heads down at the minute, trying not to interrupt Unionists destroying the 'Union' themselves.

I am sure Francie has an obscure poll somewhere demonstrating that all those who vote for nationalists want a united ireland.
I wouldn’t hold my breath for him producing it though

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I am sure Francie has an obscure poll somewhere demonstrating that all those who vote for nationalists want a united ireland.
I wouldn’t hold my breath for him producing it though

Nationalists downcow...you've been told alrwady - it's in the name.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Nationalists downcow...you've been told alrwady - it's in the name.

Your missing the point again. A significant number of people who vote for nationalists , when polled say they do not want a united island. Try to keep up

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Your missing the point again. A significant number of people who vote for nationalists , when polled say they do not want a united island. Try to keep up

No they don't say that. They would not vote for one - at the moment. Even our most hardenex partitionists here claim to 'want' a UI.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

Your missing the point again. A significant number of people who vote for nationalists , when polled say they do not want a united island. Try to keep up

So you've nothing to worry about then. Do try to keep up.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you've nothing to worry about then. Do try to keep up.

As Boris knew- the world will move despite the belligerent Unionists.
And it will here too.

BonnieSituation

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As Boris knew- the world will move despite the belligerent Unionists.
And it will here too.

As I said, they're irrelevant to the discussion. If they don't want to engage then so be it. They can't complain that they weren't consulted. Thing is though, they will complain.

Why we always try to pander to unionists and making them feel warm and fuzzy is beyond me. It's 2020 ffs. They've had a century and it's not working, if it was, a UI wouldn't still be on the table.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

As I said, they're irrelevant to the discussion. If they don't want to engage then so be it. They can't complain that they weren't consulted. Thing is though, they will complain.
e.

Great post Francie. You are exactly correct and I had never considered that point before.

If you remove the die hard unionists and die hard republicans from the equation - as you are correct, they are irrelevant to the outcome. The key is the 50% who do not fall into that category.

Now you can examine the polls yourself. That group ranges between 0-20% in favour of a united island, no matter how you do the sums. Desperately depressing stats for those chasing the rainbow of a united island

downcow

blanch152 wrote: »

Fairly simple, it shows once again the inability of Sinn Fein to bring people with them even when those people agree with what Sinn Fein is trying to do.

A lack of leadership, a lack of empathy, unbridled arrogance, whatever it is, Sinn Fein constantly run into this problem.

Yes blanch, you are under the skin of the nuances there.

Here is a very neutral short piece on how some feel the shinners behave. Even Swann, who almost all up here believe rose above party politics in his role, doesn’t trust them
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/republics-travel-ban-on-britain-blindsided-us-health-minister-swann-39893074.html

And it’s the arrogance of calling for measures like closing travel and yet O’Neill still says it was fine to invite thousands to the storey funeral during lockdown. You couldn’t make it up

Junkyard Tom

Unionists should really be thankful that they are living in Ireland and will retain access the world's most prosperous trading bloc. Already large businesses in the north are reorienting to the all-Ireland economy and will have direct routes to the mainland from Rosslare and Dublin.

pixelburp

I've simply presumed the reason the DUP have fought tooth and nail against special treatment through NI alignment with the EU, is that it could amount to unification via economics. NI could be a real winner with Brexit; being the one UK region that can have its cake of ... well whatever fantasy the brexiter thinks they're reaching for, while functioning with a defacto alignment with the EU. Could save thousands of jobs but still some fight it.

Granadino

Maybe the unionists shouting loudest against all this are politicians or dole merchants. They don't care about trade. It'll never affect their pay packet...

downcow

Happy Christmas to you all from a successful and secure Northern Ireland.

Here’s to further increasing and enhancing international relationships between our two great nations. And trusting that your continued membership of EU doesn’t exaggerate any separation between us. Looks like we will have very few additional barriers than already exist.
A different colour passport and a green card to drive in your country are hardly a chore

Onwards and upwards

Happy Christmas

Finty Lemon

There is huge disappointment among one major political activist group in the border region, due to the successful conclusion of Brexit talks.

The hope had been for damaging trade disruption, rancour at the border, imposition of hardware for checks and a big hit to the ROI economy. All to cause destabilisation in the south and a push for the border poll agenda, irrespective of the cost on the ground.

Expect to see another invented "crisis" hit Stormont in the new year to replace what had been hoped for from Brexit. If vaccination runs well then the obvious route of Covid will be removed. I expect it to be something from the culture or legacy bag of tricks, that plays well with the middle class student types in the South also. A 2 for 1 deal!

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

Happy Christmas to you all from a successful and secure Northern Ireland.

Here’s to further increasing and enhancing international relationships between our two great nations. And trusting that your continued membership of EU doesn’t exaggerate any separation between us. Looks like we will have very few additional barriers than already exist.
A different colour passport and a green card to drive in your country are hardly a chore

Onwards and upwards

Happy Christmas

Turn off the NI sales pitch and pushing differences for one day, Downcow.

Happy Christmas to you and yours. No caveats, no playing politics today. Just have a genuinely great one.

As I'm speaking with my family this morning and seeing their kids up North, the kids in the house here and a few friends and family members kids in the UK and France, this is a day for coming together, not pushing apart. Apart from the accents, you'd be hard pushed to tell the difference in any of those households this morning. Excited children full of wonder and joy, thats what its all about for me.

downcow

Finty Lemon wrote: »

There is huge disappointment among one major political activist group in the border region, due to the successful conclusion of Brexit talks.

The hope had been for damaging trade disruption, rancour at the border, imposition of hardware for checks and a big hit to the ROI economy. All to cause destabilisation in the south and a push for the border poll agenda, irrespective of the cost on the ground.

Expect to see another invented "crisis" hit Stormont in the new year to replace what had been hoped for from Brexit. If vaccination runs well then the obvious route of Covid will be removed. I expect it to be something from the culture or legacy bag of tricks, that plays well with the middle class student types in the South also. A 2 for 1 deal!

Yes. And also huge disappointment that there is not going to be major tariffs.
It would have been a dream for the prove blackmarket operation to have moved into the real big time with huge opportunities to smuggle all sorts from EU to gb and vice versa, using this island as the conduit.

ittakestwo

downcow wrote: »

Happy Christmas to you all from a successful and secure Northern Ireland.

Here’s to further increasing and enhancing international relationships between our two great nations. And trusting that your continued membership of EU doesn’t exaggerate any separation between us. Looks like we will have very few additional barriers than already exist.
A different colour passport and a green card to drive in your country are hardly a chore

Onwards and upwards

Happy Christmas

Successful and secure? Don't make me laugh. Consistently runs a deficit and has noway to pay its own way, and the two many parties encourage sectarianism. And secure? Very precarious more like. Signed up to an international agreement which allows it to no longer exist by popular vote at any time.