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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

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Bass Reeves

I think a lot of posters do not understand the funding issue. It is at club level it really hurts. Poster are on about how clubs should put coaches into there local schools. Outside of major urban centers this is virtually impossible. In Dublin this is possible for most major clubs. It is not possible except for at most 2-3 clubs in any other counties.

We are a small to mid sized club playing both football and hurling. We field three adult teams and at all age groups in both code underage. We have about 55 adult players on the books but in reality about a core of 30-35. Funding is made up as follows, Lotto 20-22k net, membership 8-9k, sponsorship of teams 5k, adult team fundraising6-8k, general fundraising bagpack, table quiz's, fun and sport days etc about 10-12k. This gives a total budget of about 50-55k. That's a normal year this year like many small clubs we are struggling lack a fundraising and lower lotto sales us leaving us about 15-20 k below normal fundraising.

Running costs team trainers, physio, coaches 10-12k, loan repayments 11k, affiliation and insurance fees 10-12k, sports gear football's, slitior's, bibs, cones first aid etc 5-6k, pitch and clubhouse maintenance 5k. End of year event for underage 2k, team costs such as friendlies and all weather pitch hire 1.5k, misc 5k.

At any time we are 3-5+/- our fundraising. We have 3 national schools and a secondary school in the area. At present the county sponsor a coach for 10-12 weeks we pay half and they pay half I think it 6-8hours a week for 12weeks. It costs about 800/national school. You are looking at a college student will to do it with a bit of knowledge of the games.

We have looked at the feasibility of a full time coach. Costs between insurance, training expenses wagers and employer PRSI would be in the region of 50k. In theory central council will 50%fund such a coach. To employ and hold onto such a coach it would have to be fulltime so he be involved during holidays with the club.

Total cost would be 25k to the club. There is not a hope in hell we could afford it neither could 90%of the club's in the county or in most counties outside Dublin. We Even looked at sharing a coach with another club. That would give us 15-18 hours per week or 3-4 hours per school. Cost would be 12-15k assuming 50% co funding. It's even beyond the scope of our fundraising. 25% of our yearly budget.

We have a decent pitch and training area and clubhouse consisting of 3 changing rooms, a small meeting room. This was build 10+years ago and loan is with regard to that. When it's repaid in 4-5 years time we could look again at the underage/schools coach but we like to develop a ball wall with a small all weather area as well which would put the coach another 4-8 years down the road.

RoyalCelt

jay1988 wrote: »

I'd wonder, if Mayo's keeper hadn't have thrown it away a few years ago, or Brady hadn't gotten himself stupidly sent off in another game or if Cillian O'Connor had the balls of Dean Rock and could actually score a late free to win an All Ireland, would the money be such a problem then?

Kerry left it behind in the drawn game last year, Mayo a few times have passed up a good opportunity to beat them, would you all still be moaning like ye are now? The money would still be the same, or is it because none of those teams have had the mentality to actually go out and finish off Dublin when the opportunity arose that people have such a big problem?

Of course it would be an issue. If Dublin had won nothing then it still wouldn't have been fair. Where was the save the GAA in Antrim, Louth, Down, Cork, Meath, Kildare etc etc plan? Why is there no crises meeting pumping millions into these counties to restore their once great GAA traditions at County level?

That would be equally unfair BTW on other counties who miss out but the point is we lived in a world where there was a fair county rivalry and the gaa squashed that by funding dublin to the hilt. Killing off inter County interest across leinster all together. Fan fare that had developed over decades murdered. Worst plan ever.

History will look back fondly on the great kerry, Tyrone and Kilkenny teams. The dubs of this generation won't. Because they got massive external help never before afforded to others on this level. It's to be expected their results and we'll all be surprised if they manage to not win an all Ireland on any given year.

kilns

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Of course it would be an issue. If Dublin had won nothing then it still wouldn't have been fair. Where was the save the GAA in Antrim, Louth, Down, Cork, Meath, Kildare etc etc plan? Why is there no crises meeting pumping millions into these counties to restore their once great GAA traditions at County level?

That would be equally unfair BTW on other counties who miss out but the point is we lived in a world where there was a fair county rivalry and the gaa squashed that by funding dublin to the hilt. Killing off inter County interest across leinster all together. Fan fare that had developed over decades murdered. Worst plan ever.

History will look back fondly on the great kerry, Tyrone and Kilkenny teams. The dubs of this generation won't. Because they got massive external help never before afforded to others on this level. It's to be expected their results and we'll all be surprised if they manage to not win an all Ireland on any given year.

As a meath man I am sure you know the problem was recognised 5 years ago in the suburban counties around Dublin and thus the east leinster project was founded where funding has now dramatically increased to counties Meath Kildare Louth and Wicklow. As evident from Dublin these things do not yield overnight success or even 5 year success, the real benefits are sign long term if things are done right

Bass Reeves

Just a story I heard on funding. It shows the differences between fundraising in counties with out large urban centers. Heard it second hand but from a realiable source. It relates to a city club. They were doing a 6-800k development. After funding from sport capital and GAA they needed to raise 200k. They approached local businesses. Straight away they got 50-60k in commitments, but the really interesting part was they picked up three sponsors who committed 25k+ to the club per year for five+ years. This was a city club outside Dublin.

My understanding is that at present there are a number of clubs in Dublin raising funds that exceed county fundraising of most counties in Ireland.

y0ssar1an22

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think a lot of posters do not understand the funding issue. It is at club level it really hurts. Poster are on about how clubs should put coaches into there local schools. Outside of major urban centers this is virtually impossible. In Dublin this is possible for most major clubs. It is not possible except for at most 2-3 clubs in any other counties.

We are a small to mid sized club playing both football and hurling. We field three adult teams and at all age groups in both code underage. We have about 55 adult players on the books but in reality about a core of 30-35. Funding is made up as follows, Lotto 20-22k net, membership 8-9k, sponsorship of teams 5k, adult team fundraising6-8k, general fundraising bagpack, table quiz's, fun and sport days etc about 10-12k. This gives a total budget of about 50-55k. That's a normal year this year like many small clubs we are struggling lack a fundraising and lower lotto sales us leaving us about 15-20 k below normal fundraising.

Running costs team trainers, physio, coaches 10-12k, loan repayments 11k, affiliation and insurance fees 10-12k, sports gear football's, slitior's, bibs, cones first aid etc 5-6k, pitch and clubhouse maintenance 5k. End of year event for underage 2k, team costs such as friendlies and all weather pitch hire 1.5k, misc 5k.

At any time we are 3-5+/- our fundraising. We have 3 national schools and a secondary school in the area. At present the county sponsor a coach for 10-12 weeks we pay half and they pay half I think it 6-8hours a week for 12weeks. It costs about 800/national school. You are looking at a college student will to do it with a bit of knowledge of the games.

We have looked at the feasibility of a full time coach. Costs between insurance, training expenses wagers and employer PRSI would be in the region of 50k. In theory central council will 50%fund such a coach. To employ and hold onto such a coach it would have to be fulltime so he be involved during holidays with the club.

Total cost would be 25k to the club. There is not a hope in hell we could afford it neither could 90%of the club's in the county or in most counties outside Dublin. We Even looked at sharing a coach with another club. That would give us 15-18 hours per week or 3-4 hours per school. Cost would be 12-15k assuming 50% co funding. It's even beyond the scope of our fundraising. 25% of our yearly budget.

We have a decent pitch and training area and clubhouse consisting of 3 changing rooms, a small meeting room. This was build 10+years ago and loan is with regard to that. When it's repaid in 4-5 years time we could look again at the underage/schools coach but we like to develop a ball wall with a small all weather area as well which would put the coach another 4-8 years down the road.

ay, your grand. just sort yourselves out and you'll be competing in no time (says the millionaire from his yacht).

Bass Reeves

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

ay, your grand. just sort yourselves out and you'll be competing in no time (says the millionaire from his yacht).

I not sure what you mean

threeball

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just a story I heard on funding. It shows the differences between fundraising in counties with out large urban centers. Heard it second hand but from a realiable source. It relates to a city club. They were doing a 6-800k development. After funding from sport capital and GAA they needed to raise 200k. They approached local businesses. Straight away they got 50-60k in commitments, but the really interesting part was they picked up three sponsors who committed 25k+ to the club per year for five+ years. This was a city club outside Dublin.

My understanding is that at present there are a number of clubs in Dublin raising funds that exceed county fundraising of most counties in Ireland.

I heard of one city club who fundraised their astropitch in one night. Down the country that could take 3 to 4yrs.

[Deleted User]

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Just a story I heard on funding. It shows the differences between fundraising in counties with out large urban centers. Heard it second hand but from a realiable source. It relates to a city club. They were doing a 6-800k development. After funding from sport capital and GAA they needed to raise 200k. They approached local businesses. Straight away they got 50-60k in commitments, but the really interesting part was they picked up three sponsors who committed 25k+ to the club per year for five+ years. This was a city club outside Dublin.

My understanding is that at present there are a number of clubs in Dublin raising funds that exceed county fundraising of most counties in Ireland.

Just a story from a reliable source , jesus wept:rolleyes:

kilns

threeball wrote: »

I heard of one city club who fundraised their astropitch in one night. Down the country that could take 3 to 4yrs.

Smell of something that starts with B and ends in T with that post

Bass Reeves

threeball wrote: »

I heard of one city club who fundraised their astropitch in one night. Down the country that could take 3 to 4yrs.

More like a decade and they would be renting it out 50-60% of the time as well to make end meet

y0ssar1an22

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I not sure what you mean

its the argument every dub fan has...basically deal with it, there aint no problem, figure it out, if the dubs can do it why cant you.

Bass Reeves

kilns wrote: »

Smell of something that starts with B and ends in T with that post

It may be more of a metaphor. There is a few instances of city based clubs getting major funding for developments which has even surprised them.

[Deleted User]

LuasSimon wrote: »

I see the Dublin Womens team only beat Cork by five points in winning the ladies All Ireland , have to get a few more Development officers into each of the Girls secondary schools in Dublin

Really arent you the bitter one

tritium

JeffKenna wrote: »

Only for a game they probably should have won but were caught on the counter with some goals we'd be at 8 in a row now. Scary stuff.

Only for a game where mayo fluked two own goals we wouldnt have six in a row

Small margins

Bass Reeves

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

its the argument every dub fan has...basically deal with it, there aint no problem, figure it out, if the dubs can do it why cant you.

Well if you can multiply the number of players available to a rural club and increase it fundraising ability where there is no natural large businesses then show us the way.

tobefrank321

Looks like ladies football has been killed off too as a competitive sport which is unfortunate as it was starting to grow in popularity.

Its lucky there was a weak tradition of hurling and camogie in Dublin or those would have been killed off too.

tritium

RoyalCelt wrote: »

Of course it would be an issue. If Dublin had won nothing then it still wouldn't have been fair. Where was the save the GAA in Antrim, Louth, Down, Cork, Meath, Kildare etc etc plan? Why is there no crises meeting pumping millions into these counties to restore their once great GAA traditions at County level?

That would be equally unfair BTW on other counties who miss out but the point is we lived in a world where there was a fair county rivalry and the gaa squashed that by funding dublin to the hilt. Killing off inter County interest across leinster all together. Fan fare that had developed over decades murdered. Worst plan ever.

History will look back fondly on the great kerry, Tyrone and Kilkenny teams. The dubs of this generation won't. Because they got massive external help never before afforded to others on this level. It's to be expected their results and we'll all be surprised if they manage to not win an all Ireland on any given year.

Fair county rivalry my ass

Look at the roll of honour and then tell me about a fair county rivalry

howareyakid

I find I’ve been defending this Dublin team today. I think they’re an absolutely exceptional team and they come across as incredibly sound and humble etc. in general. And in terms of the wider debate, I’m not sure what the future holds. I think the GAA has to address the funding issue, obviously. Now whether or not there is a funding issue could depend on who you ask, but it goes without saying all counties should be given equal opportunities. However, when you look at minor and u21 championships, it’s not like Dublin are sweeping up. So, yes, they’ve won six on the spin and could do more, but I’m not so sure if the GAA should take radical action that’s been suggested from some quarters like splitting them etc. They could just happen to have a once in a generation group of players, I don’t know.

ClanofLams

DubCount wrote: »

1. Dominance is easily beating the best of the rest. Dublin have been dominant in Leinster, but when they have played top tier teams its been far from a stroll.

2. That is so disrespectful to other top tier teams. If Dublin didnt hit top gear in this years final, thats because of the intensity of the Mayo team that faced them. They were level after 50 minutes in spite of conceding 2 goals. A couple of sloppy passes in the final quarter, a few referee decisions, its hardly my idea of a stroll in the park.

3. LOL. Are you actually suggesting that in an All Ireland final, a team chose win by a smaller margin than they could have?

4. Dublin hurling has improved, but its hardly in the running to win the Liam McCarthy any time soon. If anything, its gone backwards since the Daly era.

5. There is a core of the team that have been the difference in this era. Cluxton alone has been central and he wont be there for another 10 years. I would say the likes of James McCarthy and Mick Fitz etc will not be easily replaced. If you look at the latest entrants to the team, I dont think you can say they have improved the team like Fenton/Kilkenny did. The belief that Dublin will be just as strong in the future is no based on reality. Its not like they are winning 6 in a row at minors.

1. Suggesting a team that has won six championships out of six isn't dominant is an absolutely ludicrous assertion.

2. As others have pointed out Mayo have had countless opportunities to prove they can beat Dublin and come up short, they looked further away than ever yesterday. Dublin beat Kerry handy in last years replay. Having an extra man for forty minutes The other teams are well off the standard set by Dublin and cliches about on their day won't change that.

3. I'm suggesting that Dublin are smart footballers, they go six or seven ahead, recognise that barring conceding goals they won't lose the match and engage in quite a lot of keep ball. If for some reason they had to win those games by ten points plus it's far from a reach to think they would be capable of doing so.

4. You're talking only about the senior team. That team is likely now competitive with every county in the country as shown by their championship displays against Galway and Kilkenny. You haven't mentioned a hugely improved juvenile record, Cuala going back to back etc - all very unlikely 15 years ago.

5. This has been said about numerous people at this stage. They'll be in trouble when Gavin/Diarmuid Connolly/Bernard Brogan goes, etc. From what I saw of yesterdays final Cluxton kickouts weren't especially impressive by his high standards, I don't think he was especially influential, there are plenty of other experienced leaders in the team.
McCarthy and Mick Fitzsimons are very good players but given the others Dublin have replaced in recent years, nothing to suggest they can't find capable replacements.

Whether those who have come in to the team in recent years have made Dublin stronger is difficulty to quantify but they certainly have not weakened them. Dublin have four U20S/21s in the last decade I think and another couple of all ireland appearances. Plenty of prospects coming through. Juvenile success not always the best indicator of senior either (eg Galway hurlers, Limerick hurlers in 2000s etc)

ooter

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Looks like ladies football has been killed off too as a competitive sport which is unfortunate as it was starting to grow in popularity.

Cork win a 5 in a row and a 6 in a row this century and no mention of it being killed off, but Dublin win 4 in a row and the sky is falling down.

Fann Linn

ooter wrote: »

Cork win a 5 in a row and a 6 in a row this century and no mention of it being killed off, but Dublin win 4 in a row and the sky is falling down.

Just anti Dublin begrudgery.

tobefrank321

ooter wrote: »

Cork win a 5 in a row and a 6 in a row this century and no mention of it being killed off, but Dublin win 4 in a row and the sky is falling down.

Cork did not have MASSIVE gdf funding, professional coaches at every club, home advantage, Etc. Etc

Cork did it the hard way

y0ssar1an22

ooter wrote: »

Cork win a 5 in a row and a 6 in a row this century and no mention of it being killed off, but Dublin win 4 in a row and the sky is falling down.

whatever discipline or gender....

you can acknowledge dublin were not doing well prior to ~10 years ago?

then massive influx of cash (coaching, foot, S and C all based on cash), all teams are killing it.

what has changed?

if there is something else that i am missing (which doesnt harken back to more money) please tell me.

Achebe

Women's football has never been very competitive. Cork and Mayo have previously dominated.

Bass Reeves

howareyakid wrote: »

I find I’ve been defending this Dublin team today. I think they’re an absolutely exceptional team and they come across as incredibly sound and humble etc. in general. And in terms of the wider debate, I’m not sure what the future holds. I think the GAA has to address the funding issue, obviously. Now whether or not there is a funding issue could depend on who you ask, but it goes without saying all counties should be given equal opportunities. However, when you look at minor and u21 championships, it’s not like Dublin are sweeping up. So, yes, they’ve won six on the spin and could do more, but I’m not so sure if the GAA should take radical action that’s been suggested from some quarters like splitting them etc. They could just happen to have a once in a generation group of players, I don’t know.

Up until this year I was similar to you. I started to having nagging doubts last year when Dublin win there fifth. However over the last three years 1/3 of the team has been replaced. It is quite possible when you look at the longevity of professional players in other sports that some of these Dublin players could play into there mid thirties. They could be influencial as subs for 2-3 years after not making starting teams. These players will not have the toll of games of other professionals players. Because of that continuous replacement is a virtual foregone conclusion

I always taught milage and burnout would catch them as it has done to the present Mayo group and the Kerry team of the noughties. Burnout and low player turnover was what did for the Kerry team of the 70&80's. Pat Spillane was about 30 when he won his last medal, as was Ogie Moran and Paudie O Shea. Jack O Shea was 28 and Sean Walsh and Eoin Bomber Liston the same. At the time 27-28 was the average age of All Ireland winning teams and it was felt that Kerry would win a few more. But they were literally burnt out.

Dublin has began to ignore the league and use it rather than the underage structure to bring in players and test them out. It also saves there older players who now only have to concentrate on a 6-8 week playing window. Taking it that Lenister is not competitive it like having a few pre season friendlies.

The players on the field are only part of any team now. Video analysis, core as well as strength and conditioning, coaching, physico, has Dublin got 10+doing stats at any game now and 1-2 more co-ordinating it.

The one thing we know about the GAA is it never takes radical action. Even if this discussion was taking place for 3-4 years it unlikely the GAA will seriously look at it before the mid/late 20's. By then it may be two late.

tobefrank321

Achebe wrote: »

Women's football has never been very competitive. Cork and Mayo have previously dominated.

You couldn't actually predict beforehand though who'd win. You can now. Its going to be Dublin in mens and womens. When that happens you know its a farce not to be taken seriously and that the sports administrators have screwed it up so badly they killed their own sport!

y0ssar1an22

Achebe wrote: »

Women's football has never been very competitive. Cork and Mayo have previously dominated.

has the money improved?

be that by coaching, advertising, whatever else

ETA: misread your post.

Cilldara_2000

DubCount wrote: »

1. Dominance is easily beating the best of the rest. Dublin have been dominant in Leinster, but when they have played top tier teams its been far from a stroll.

Dublin's average winning margins (incl draws) in the AI series:

2015 - 4.5 points
2016 - 2 points
2017 - 7.7 points
2018 - 7.4 points
2019 - 8.8 points
2020 - 10 points

Mrsmum

Someone should make a programme where a well known Mayo or Kerry player moves into the Dublin set up and a well known Dublin player joins the Kerry or Mayo squad. It would be interesting and informative their views at the end of the experience.

y0ssar1an22

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Dublin's average winning margins (incl draws) in the AI series:

2015 - 4.5 points
2016 - 2 points
2017 - 7.7 points
2018 - 7.4 points
2019 - 8.8 points
2020 - 10 points

what were the averages for the 5 years previous so we can draw a comparison?