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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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olestoepoke

All the accusations of Dublin receiving more money from the GAA than anyone else are they true? Has anyone any evidence that they receive more per capita than any other county in funding? Or is it all just emotive salty tears, give me my ball back I'm not playing anymore, I'm going home because you're too good and I can't win? Where they always given more money than the rest of the country or does the increase coincide with their recent success because I cant remember any complaining when they were terrible and won one AI in 25 years or so. What about Kilkenny in the hurling? Didn't they win a record amount in a row? Did they ruin hurling? Why weren't they split in two given less money and told to stop winning. Stop the whinging, dont get mad just get better and challenge.

lawrencesummers

ClanofLams wrote: »

Cork should definitely be more competitive. Tipperary isn't that small relatively speaking.

Some people should realise that throwing out cliches about sport and how it always changes etc and other nonsense is irrelevant in the unique context of GAA when talking about a county with 20% of the population on the island and a massive funding advantage who are growing the gap as they win six in a row. Just delusional and detached from reality stuff.

Population has always been skewed towards Dublin but this period of dominance s is only recent.

If all things were equal then I would accept population as an advantage, but the ability of many counties to actually put a competitive inter county team out that is based on long term support, development and investment is completely lacking in many counties.

Cork are a perfect example, the incompetence of their administrators has been clear to see across the development of Pairs Ui Caoimh. Old power hungry dinosaurs with dodgy stuff going on all over the place.

Look at the experience of Eddie Brennan and what he has to say about the most recent county board he was involved with. Eddie knows what it takes to win.

The truth of the matter is that the administrators in many counties are holding back GAA in that county

lawrencesummers

Kalani CoolS Filet wrote: »

Maybe the AI could be reduced to 5 teams - Connaught, Munster, Leinster (without Dublin), Ulster, and Dublin.

We could call it the Railway Cup.

FromADistance

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Population has always been skewed towards Dublin but this period of dominance s is only recent.

If all things were equal then I would accept population as an advantage, but the ability of many counties to actually put a competitive inter county team out that is based on long term support, development and investment is completely lacking in many counties.

Cork are a perfect example, the incompetence of their administrators has been clear to see across the development of Pairs Ui Caoimh. Old power hungry dinosaurs with dodgy stuff going on all over the place.

Look at the experience of Eddie Brennan and what he has to say about the most recent county board he was involved with. Eddie knows what it takes to win.

The truth of the matter is that the administrators in many counties are holding back GAA in that county

Administrators in most counties have full time jobs. They are being asked to run multi million euro businesses (effectively) whilst trying to set the direction of games in the county and hold down a full time job. Dublin can head off to the likes of AIG and pocket 800k p.a for selling their 'brand'. And attract all sorts of other corporate sponsors without too much hassle. That pays for their full time admin setup, paid CEO etc. Leitrim for example are sponsored by a pub in New York. Their last sponsorship deal was worth 20k p.a. so I very much doubt they get much more. 20k might pay for 1 part time official.

Having a full time administration setup allows counties the time and space to setup structures and craft strategic direction. You need time and money to do that and as far as I can see most counties do not have either. 'Volunteering harder' wont solve those basic issues. The GAA have allowed this to happen so this problem is squarely on their doorstep. Unless county boards stand up for themselves and start challenging this, nothing will change.

the kelt

olestoepoke wrote: »

All the accusations of Dublin receiving more money from the GAA than anyone else are they true? Has anyone any evidence that they receive more per capita than any other county in funding? Or is it all just emotive salty tears, give me my ball back I'm not playing anymore, I'm going home because you're too good and I can't win? Where they always given more money than the rest of the country or does the increase coincide with their recent success because I cant remember any complaining when they were terrible and won one AI in 25 years or so. What about Kilkenny in the hurling? Didn't they win a record amount in a row? Did they ruin hurling? Why weren't they split in two given less money and told to stop winning. Stop the whinging, dont get mad just get better and challenge.

Are you genuinely asking if it’s true Dublin have been receiving more money from the GAA than other counties???

olestoepoke

the kelt wrote: »

Are you genuinely asking if it’s true Dublin have been receiving more money from the GAA than other counties???

Yes I am. Money from the GAA per capita more than any other county.

tritium

ClanofLams wrote: »

So GAA is unique amongst sports and funding has no impact?

Well if funding had no impact the extremely well financed Kerry teams wouldn’t have 37 AIs , the well funded Mayo teams wouldn’t be in so many finals and I think limerick have been handed a few Bob too

Kerry in particular have had a well resourced and sponsored machine for decades before most counties. Their sponsorship deal is comparable to dublins currently by all accounts

Odd how some folks only care about these things when certain teams are benefitting. Wasn’t a huge suprise to see this thread top of the GAA forum

doc_17

The people trying to defend the current situation by saying “it’s up to everyone else to get their own houses in order” are the worst kind of people to listen to. They are like Tories who say it’s up to the poor to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps - despite these Tories having been handed their wealth by someone else. That’s the current Dublin situation.

piplip87

I dont think the problem is so much with Dublin as it is with the Leinster Championship, Dublin get to the 1/4 finals every non COVID year playing training games, where as the likes of Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo will have had at least 1 close hardly fought game. This makes a massive difference, Dublin can have their off day in Leinster and still win by 10 points. Where as if Kerry or Tyrone have one it's the backdoor tour of the country.

Dublin are a completely different beast to what we have seen before. Their possession based play, while effective is so boring to watch and adds nothing to the game. There needs to be some serious changes to football and the structure of the championship. I know my local club started playing this possession based crap of hand passing it around centre field and I stopped going to games. I'd imagine I'm not alone

lawrencesummers

FromADistance wrote: »

Administrators in most counties have full time jobs. They are being asked to run multi million euro businesses (effectively) whilst trying to set the direction of games in the county and hold down a full time job. Dublin can head off to the likes of AIG and pocket 800k p.a for selling their 'brand'. And attract all sorts of other corporate sponsors without too much hassle. That pays for their full time admin setup, paid CEO etc. Leitrim for example are sponsored by a pub in New York. Their last sponsorship deal was worth 20k p.a. so I very much doubt they get much more. 20k might pay for 1 part time official.

Having a full time administration setup allows counties the time and space to setup structures and craft strategic direction. You need time and money to do that and as far as I can see most counties do not have either. 'Volunteering harder' wont solve those basic issues. The GAA have allowed this to happen so this problem is squarely on their doorstep. Unless county boards stand up for themselves and start challenging this, nothing will change.

Your taking opposite ends of the spectrum. Sure Dublin are on top, and with those figures Leitrim could be at the bottom, but plenty of counties in the middle are run more like Leitrim instead of working towards a model like Dublin.

Kerry have massive funding and income from benefactors, they have all the coaches you would want and a massive culture, but this year they were an embarrassing failure, that’s hardly dublins fault .

Gooey Looey

olestoepoke wrote: »

Yes I am. Money from the GAA per capita more than any other county.

https://bfy.tw/Py7l

tritium

piplip87 wrote: »

I dont think the problem is so much with Dublin as it is with the Leinster Championship, Dublin get to the 1/4 finals every non COVID year playing training games, where as the likes of Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo will have had at least 1 close hardly fought game. This makes a massive difference, Dublin can have their off day in Leinster and still win by 10 points. Where as if Kerry or Tyrone have one it's the backdoor tour of the country.

Dublin are a completely different beast to what we have seen before. Their possession based play, while effective is so boring to watch and adds nothing to the game. There needs to be some serious changes to football and the structure of the championship. I know my local club started playing this possession based crap of hand passing it around centre field and I stopped going to games. I'd imagine I'm not alone

When do Kerry have a close game in Munster? The one year in 9 or 10 they take cork a little too much for granted? Munsters a procession most years. Kerry’s golden generation didn’t have to break sweat until the final usually. Ulsters the only province that’s had a tradition of real consistent competitiveness

The possession game was a response to the blanket defense, possibly the worst thing to happen to football imho. You can ultimately thank mickey Harte and Jim mcguinness for that evolution. If you want to stifle possession football then you also need to stop football going back to that approach

jimmytwotimes 2013

ooter wrote: »

Kerry have been getting money pumped in to them for the guts of 25 years now and that was grand while Dublin were being sponsored by arnotts but once they got their house in order and realised their value it's suddenly a problem

Some figures to back that up

FromADistance

doc_17 wrote: »

The people trying to defend the current situation by saying “it’s up to everyone else to get their own houses in order” are the worst kind of people to listen to. They are like Tories who say it’s up to the poor to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps - despite these Tories having been handed their wealth by someone else. That’s the current Dublin situation.

It also shows huge amount of ignorance about how the GAA is run and organised. But lets be honest, its not Dublin GAA's fault. This matter is squarely on the doorstep of the GAA. And until the GAA start tackling the issue and stop pussy footing around, nothing will change. It also doesn't help the conversation when you have the likes of Cork GAA going off and spending millions on a stadium and then having to be bailed out by the GAA. Utter madness. Imagine having to look out at that nonsense if you were working hard promoting games in a weaker county knowing that your job will be made harder because of financial mismanagement elsewhere.

tritium

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some figures to back that up

https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-30947162.html?type=amp

I’ll just leave this here so....

threeball

piplip87 wrote: »

I dont think the problem is so much with Dublin as it is with the Leinster Championship, Dublin get to the 1/4 finals every non COVID year playing training games, where as the likes of Tyrone, Kerry and Mayo will have had at least 1 close hardly fought game. This makes a massive difference, Dublin can have their off day in Leinster and still win by 10 points. Where as if Kerry or Tyrone have one it's the backdoor tour of the country.

Dublin are a completely different beast to what we have seen before. Their possession based play, while effective is so boring to watch and adds nothing to the game. There needs to be some serious changes to football and the structure of the championship. I know my local club started playing this possession based crap of hand passing it around centre field and I stopped going to games. I'd imagine I'm not alone

Completely agree, Dublin are a very effective team but I'd rather watch paint dry than watch the way they play. Its robotic and joyless. I used to love watch the Dubs in the 90s and 2000s as they were almost always involved in cracking games where they would just go at the opposition. Now it's get 14 behind the ball, turn it over, short pass until you get to the D then tap it over or palm a goal. Its beyond boring and the other teams are aping that style now as well.

dunnerc

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

What would you suggest for a middle of the road team like Kildare/Meath/cork to do to sort their **** out and possibly replicate what Dublin have?

6am training sessions on dollymount beach in Dec ,Jan and Feb

elefant

1. A massive population and huge funding/professionalism to get the best out of that statistical advantage.

2. A massive population without huge funding/professionalism, and consequently not maximising the statistical advantage.

3. A much lesser population and huge funding/professionalism to get the best out of those numbers.

4. A much lesser population without huge funding/professionalism.

These are the options. Dublin were at 2 for years, and are now at 1 and will likely remain there forever. Many other counties are at 3 and 4, and some have populations so small it takes a remarkable crop of players to even challenge those in 3 and 4. In
any case, no other county can ever reach option 1 or 2.

Unless Ireland, as a nation, bucks the global trend of urbanisation this is where we are at, in perpetuity. The GAA have just accelerated Dublin's move into the top tier, way beyond what any other county can replicate. Any argument that statistics don't kick points is so outdated at this stage it's not worth even engaging.

olestoepoke

Gooey Looey wrote: »

https://bfy.tw/Py7l

Whats that?

olestoepoke

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some figures to back that up

How about some figures to back up the claims that Dublin receive more money than any other county from the GAA per capita?

Gooey Looey

olestoepoke wrote: »

Whats that?

Plenty of articles written about it. DYOR. Here's the 1st 4 links to get you started:
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534
https://sportforbusiness.com/is-dublin-gaa-funding-fair-and-proportionate/
https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/3725588/dublin-gaa-development-funding-1-3m/

olestoepoke

Gooey Looey wrote: »

Plenty of articles written about it. DYOR. Here's the 1st 4 links to get you started:
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0614/1055359-dublin-funding/
https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534
https://sportforbusiness.com/is-dublin-gaa-funding-fair-and-proportionate/
https://www.thesun.ie/sport/gaa-football/3725588/dublin-gaa-development-funding-1-3m/

https://sportforbusiness.com/is-dublin-gaa-funding-fair-and-proportionate/
Did you actually read this one? Because it goes against
your argument.

Gooey Looey

olestoepoke wrote: »

https://sportforbusiness.com/is-dublin-gaa-funding-fair-and-proportionate/
Did you actually read this one? Because it goes against
your argument.

No I didn't, I provided the first 4 links for you to do your own research!

namloc1980

So we're at the stage that we have people denying Dublin have neither a financial nor a population advantage.

olestoepoke

Gooey Looey wrote: »

No I didn't, I provided the first 4 links for you to do your own research!

So you randomly put forward articles to back up your argument without reading them?

Cavan_King

I still don't understand why this topic generates such a polar opposite in opinions - surely there's some middle ground.

I don't want to see Dublin split in two but I think its clear that work needs to be done to redistribute the capital that was pumped into Dublin over the past decade.

Dublin have their own advantages that can't be addressed:

1. Their population - which I don't see as big a problem as some others (take soccer as an example, small countries like Croatia (4 million) & Belgium (11 million) over performing based on small populations with proper structure and funding in place).
2. The location - Jack McCaffrey even said the Dub's biggest advantage is all their players live, work, study in Dublin but, again, that can't be changed.
3. Expenses - is linked to the above but Dublin are always going to have minimal travel expenses etc. compared to other counties. For many counties, this appears to be their main expense.

However, there are issues which can easily be addressed:

1. Croke Park being their home ground now - Dublin should only be playing the Leinster Final, All Ireland semi final and final in Croke Park. Yes, the GAA may have to take a financial hit but I did see a decent alternative suggested recently where each county would play a League game in Croke Park and then play 3 home and 3 away. This would also negate the advantage of teams possibly having 4 home fixtures every second year.
2. Increase the number of GDMs in each county. The funding should now be available to do that and I would start with the Division 3 and 4 teams immediately. My own club pay a local coach to go into the school one day a week but should we need to fund this?
3. Put in place a commercial manager/CEO for each county a la John Costello in Dublin. The GAA have been forking out millions in bailing out poorly managed counties. Put 32 men in place with commercial acumen, one in each county, at a cost of 100k per year and set them targets. Within two to three years, they should all be easily repaying the 3.2 million they cost collectively.
Intercounty teams are now multi million euro companies. The days of the likes of John the baker attempting to run this because everyone likes him need to end.
4. Pool all sponsorship money and distribute it based on key metrics for each county.
5. Ensure each county has the funding for a squad of 45 players. Travel and other related expenses should come from a centralised pot rather than counties attempting to fund them. Even if some of these 45 never play for the county team, they will be training at a higher level and bringing the knowledge they gain back to their own club teams.

Both sides of the argument are coming out with some ridiculous points to be honest but I think the above would at least start to address the issues. This argument that, ah well, other counties need to get their affairs in order is beyond annoying. Dublin were pumped with cash so it was easy to get their affairs in order. You can argue it all you like but the facts are there.

Compare them to my own county Cavan for example. We had to cut panel members at the start of this year to save on costs. At the moment, we're raffling houses to try and get the funds together for a centre of excellence, whereas Dublin have plans for two!

We were only the third county to put in place a full time strength and conditioning coach for all levels of our intercounty setup in early 2019 but Dublin have had one for near a decade.

Our county board chairman is a successful business man, which is the right way to go with these appointments, but he is trying to juggle running a multi million euro electrical business with the county board.

There's no reason to drag Dublin down but it's clear work needs to be done to drag the others up to their level. Dublin won the AI final yesterday without even playing well by their standards.

olestoepoke

namloc1980 wrote: »

So we're at the stage that we have people denying Dublin have neither a financial nor a population advantage.

They've always had a population advantage, this was never an issue that was brought up when they won one AI in over 2 decades.

munster87

olestoepoke wrote: »

So you randomly put forward articles to back up your argument without reading them?

Very hard to get an ostrich’s head out of the sand when they are happy out where they are.

tritium

elefant wrote: »

1. A massive population and huge funding/professionalism to get the best out of that statistical advantage.

2. A massive population without huge funding/professionalism, and consequently not maximising the statistical advantage.

3. A much lesser population and huge funding/professionalism to get the best out of those numbers.

4. A much lesser population without huge funding/professionalism.

These are the options. Dublin were at 2 for years, and are now at 1 and will likely remain there forever. Many other counties are at 3 and 4, and some have populations so small it takes a remarkable crop of players to even challenge those in 3 and 4. In
any case, no other county can ever reach option 1 or 2.

Unless Ireland, as a nation, bucks the global trend of urbanisation this is where we are at, in perpetuity. The GAA have just accelerated Dublin's move into the top tier, way beyond what any other county can replicate. Any argument that statistics don't kick points is so outdated at this stage it's not worth even engaging.

That’s not entirely correct. For a start it’s difficult to quantify the effect of population. Leitrim with 30k people is certainly small but I don’t think any county the size of say Meath of Kildare can claim to be small. Anything around 150k+ should give a basis for a decent player pool.

The structures are certainly more important, and funding helps (but doesn’t guarantee) in putting them in place. Kerry for example, with a long history of solid funding, have had decades to build those structures. Dublin with their “blue wave” identified the gap and strategically worked to address it, including aggressively seeking the funding to make it happen- tbh it’s a bit rich to criticise them when they were very open all along about the plan they had (and were ridiculed by many counties at the time).

The best analogy I can think of would be soccer, where you have teams like Brazil, Nigeria and Holland. The first two have massive population advantages and massive supporter bases, but very different established structures. In reality the Dutch benefit from getting their systems right in the 70’s and would generally be closer to Brazil than Nigeria in terms of capability. This structures are what many people are suggesting weaker counties try to build. It doesn’t have to, and shouldn’t, just copy the Dublin or Kerry model. Counties need to work out how to mould it to suit themselves, and the GAA needs to support this with funding, which, to be fair, they’ve acknowledged and are working on.

FintanMcluskey

olestoepoke wrote: »

They've always had a population advantage, this was never an issue that was brought up when they won one AI in over 2 decades.

No because the AI was competitive back then.

Will Brian Fenton ever loose a championship match? He’s probably got 3-4 seasons left so it’s unlikely.

The AI championship equivalent is a full strength Liverpool playing 2nd and 3rd devision teams in the FA cup where a back door route exists.

It’s as dull as dishwater for neutrals

How many AI medals had Dublins bench got yesterday?

Whatever is the reason, the result is pros vs amateurs.

I’ve said it before, that Dublin team belongs playing in the Aussie league