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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

seligehgit

Discussion of all matters relating to this contentious subject is welcome and the potential implications of same.This thread is solely for this purpose.

There appears to be a perception that the moderators are attempting to shut down discussion of this topic and direct same off to a low traffic stickied thread.Nothing could be further from the truth.Our sole motive was to confine discussion to a single thread and prevent cross thread posting which was adversely affecting the enjoyment of fellow posters.

Can we please keep posts civil and constructive in nature.

The Changes in the GAA-super thread is now for discussion of all other suggested reforms not relating to Dublin GAA.

Extra Mod Warning:
Right, a separate warning to both sides in this debate:
Firstly, any more mentioning of "financial doping" or any intimation that rules have been broken by Dublin or that Dublin have cheated are banned from now on. You can debate the issue of the funding that Dublin have received without resorting to that. There is zero evidence of it and posting about it will be considered trolling from here on in.

Secondly, this topic is, like it or not, a big talking point in gaelic football at the moment. You are more than welcome to argue your point, but posting in this thread to simply mock those on the other side or complaining about the topic is known as thread spoiling and is specifically banned in the charter (see point 8 here). No one is forcing you to click on this thread and no one is forcing you to post in it. If you don't like the topic, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

This thread is here so that all the discussion is in one place and it won't filter into other threads. This makes it easier to ignore for posters who don't really want to be involved in it. As a result, we haven't really been moderating it as severely as other threads. However, a number of posts recently from both sides are sailing too close to the wind and getting borderline personal. So please take a minute before you hit submit to ensure that your post won't fall foul of the rules. We'll have no hesitation in issuing cards and/or threadbans to posters who fail to heed this warning.

Please report any posts that you feel break the rules.

Any questions, please feel free to PM the mods.

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Morris Garren

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Well done Dublin - a great team who brings the game to a different level. Those who criticise are jealous. Instead, look and learn. Aspire to reach the same level. Embrace brilliance as all true sports fans should.

This is interesting- suggesting that any criticism of the Dubs is 'jealousy'.
For starters, winners are always there to be challenged and a bit of envy is inevitable and a small bit of jealousy can be good for motivating opponents.
Look and learn? Well I have learned that there is an astronomical difference between the resources of Dublin and many of the other counties-- so my conclusion is that the other counties probably need millionaire sugar daddy's to finance the county to the same tune as Dublin. Is that what is needed for the 'amateur' GAA? Seriously? There is absolutely no chance of splitting up any county any time soon.
We need to embrace brilliance? How about the Dubs acknowledge a bit of hubris- its pretty easy to be 'brilliant' when there is an extraordinarily lopsided structure that benefits you to this degree.

I have no malice whatsoever for the players and those who make the sacrifices for the team: but this is a fully professional outfit, heavily financed and supported, who really should be winning in these circumstances.
I am also not remotely jealous. Just increasingly disinterested

Dyr

Morris Garren wrote: »

I have no malice whatsoever for the players and those who make the sacrifices for the team: but this is a fully professional outfit, heavily financed and supported, who really should be winning in these circumstances.
I am also not remotely jealous. Just increasingly disinterested

Which Dublin players are being paid to play Gaelic Football?

Presumably, you consider Lee Chin and Colm Cooper to be fully professional too.

ArmaniJeanss

equivariant wrote: »

The point I'm making is not about professionalism.transfer market. The point is that the NFL actively puts rules in place to counterbalance teams that have natural advantages - they have draft lotteries and salary caps etc. Of course the GAA can't exactly replicate those things, but they can try to put some measures in place to actively disadvantage the reigning champions no matter who that might be.

One of the biggest thing the NFL do is divide the country up into 32 markets of similar size. Pretty much guarantees a natural balance. Salary cap & draft obviously a big factor as well but as you say not possible here.

But crucially the 32 markets in the USA mean that not every state gets a team. If the people of South Dakota wish to support Kansas or Minnesota then great, if they don't then the attitude is fcuk 'em. Meanwhile the big population centres have multiple teams.

We're beholden to the county concept, such that our South Dakota (make up your own mind who that is) must have a team, and our New York (Dublin obviously) has one monster team.

16 (or 24) similar sized regional teams makes more sense, but no-one wants to give up their county identity and Dublin sure as hell aren't going to give up anything if no-one else takes a hit either.

The Lost Sheep

equivariant wrote: »

The point I'm making is not about professionalism.transfer market. The point is that the NFL actively puts rules in place to counterbalance teams that have natural advantages - they have draft lotteries and salary caps etc. Of course the GAA can't exactly replicate those things, but they can try to put some measures in place to actively disadvantage the reigning champions no matter who that might be.

Well NFL is completely different because its professional. there isnt exactly academies for the pro teams. The players go high school, most drop out, college, most drop out, NFL.
It isnt near the same as GAA. Its also a franchised sport and teams move and players move between teams all the time.
Just splitting Dublin. Totally reducing funding of the Dubs isnt the answer to helping other counties improve.

threeball wrote: »

No ones talking about division 4 teams. None of the division one teams are laying a glove on Dublin and its not because they're rubbish. Anyone of the other top 7 can beat one another on a given day. Thats not true of Dublin. Fitness and conditioning they're streets ahead. They burn off other teams as the game wears on. Same again today. No other team will achieve that level of fitness due to their circumstances. Dublin are more akin to an Aussie rules team in that regard.

They are not more akin to an aussie rules side.
Saying no sides are laying a glove on them isnt true. Dublin cant keep this going they'll drop off. Yes changes are needed to help other counties but to do that you dont cut the knees from dublin. That doesnt make any sense.

ooter

Limerick win the hurling by 11 points and sure tis grand but dublin win by 5 and the sky is falling down.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Downlinz wrote: »

As a Mayo man for the first final in my life I didn't bother putting flags out or even watching the game, I watched Munster instead and frankly made the correct choice. I have huge admiration for this Mayo side but my enthusiasm for the championship is just gone at this stage and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Same with the Mayo members of my family and that’s pretty big. There was just no excitement or anticipation about it at all for the first time ever. It shouldn’t be that way.

vetinari

I think you have to be trolling. I haven't seen a team finish a game stronger than Dublin in the championship in years. Kerry last year were hanging on with a man advantage! There's a huge fitness difference

Morris Garren

Bambi wrote: »

Which Dublin players are being paid to play Gaelic Football?

Presumably, you consider Lee Chin and Colm Cooper to be fully professional too.

Players are not paid to play gaelic football.
I assume you know that. And I didn't actually say that anywhere.

I don't follow the financial affairs of people like Lee Chin/Colm Cooper. But if they benefit from personal/intellectual property rights and personal enterprise -- then well done to them. Same for anybody trying to make ends meet. Including Dubliners.

My post was about my growing disinterest in the championship, partly fueled by the lopsided set up of it all. I'm hardly in the minority either

vetinari

ooter wrote: »

Limerick win the hurling by 11 points and sure tis grand but dublin win by 5 and the sky is falling down.

Maybe wait till Limerick win two or three in a row before making comparisons. Such a bad faith argument

Dyr

Morris Garren wrote: »

Players are not paid to play gaelic football.
I assume you know that. And I didn't actually say that anywhere.

You used weasel words to imply it.

So no player in the Dublin panel is a professional but Dublin is "fully professional outfit". Want to try square that circle for us?

ooter

vetinari wrote: »

Maybe wait till Limerick win two or three in a row before making comparisons. Such a bad faith argument

They were a decision away from 3 in a row.

mitchelsontour

vetinari wrote: »

Maybe wait till Limerick win two or three in a row before making comparisons. Such a bad faith argument

And Limerick only beat Galway by 3pts with Joe Canning having gone off injured.

The GAA must be the only sports organisation to fund one team to an extreme and kill off competition in one of its flagship championships.

FintanMcluskey

ooter wrote: »

Limerick win the hurling by 11 points and sure tis grand but dublin win by 5 and the sky is falling down.

That’s going to become a huge problem as well, and many have noticed. Undefeated this year.

Well ahead of the others, and games never in doubt early on

Morris Garren

Bambi wrote: »

You used weasel words to imply it.

So no player in the Dublin panel is a professional but Dublin is "fully professional outfit". Want to try square that circle for us?

Sorry, I will withdraw the word 'fully' as that might be misleading. And I don't know the financial workings of the GAA. So you win that one.

But the substantive point remains-- that the dominance of Dublin, including its financial/population advantages, with as close to a professional set up as you can get, is creating lots of disinterest.

Maybe the point I make is just academic- Dubs celebrating tonight will party on and will probably win again next year

LuasSimon

It’s population that’s the main problem , if you have 6/7000 adult players like Dublin have you have a great chance of getting 30/40 top ones compared to Mayo picking from 1000 footballers . governments particularly Fine Gael have been diverting all jobs into Dublin for the last twenty years and closing many services like garda stations , banks etc in rural Ireland hence quarter of the country live in one county now - Dublin .
Mayo voted in big numbers for Fine Gael the Dublin party , 4 out of 5 seats in election before last , Mayo turkeys voting for Christmas!
If Enda Kenny etc had encouraged some of these factories to rural ireland , Mayo , Kerry etc might have jobs for young men and their families creating footballers of the present and future .

Cilldara_2000

ooter wrote: »

Limerick win the hurling by 11 points and sure tis grand but dublin win by 5 and the sky is falling down.

This is an asinine comment. Limerick haven't won any in a row nor eight of the last ten. And Dublin's average winning margin this year was 14.8 points, Limerick's was 7.4. Both played the same number of games.

I think the cash cow is finished anyway. Already Dublin supporters aren't turning up for the Leinster championship (not that I'd blame them, who wants to pay in to see dead rubbers?), the super 8 attendances have been disappointing, and the AI semi-final attendances have been heading for record lows.

Cavan_King

No matter what side of this argument you’re on, and it seems that there’s no middle ground, people are either hugely one way or the other, two images from today surely show that something needs to be done....

1. The list of local Dublin’s backroom team of 28 vs Mayo’s 17.
2. Stephen Cluxton being handed a prepared victory speech by Dublin’s media manager.

extra gravy

Higgins5473 wrote: »

Especially seeing the disgusting behaviour from the Mayo players in the tunnel at half time making it all the sweeter.

Yeah poor aul Philly is an angel sure, not the first tunnel incident he's been involved in. Nothing to do with him being a mouthy ***** of course.

ooter

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s population that’s the main problem , if you have 6/7000 adult players like Dublin have you have a great chance of getting 30/40 top ones compared to Mayo picking from 1000 footballers

How many hurlers do dublin have the pick of?
What was Kilkenny's average winning margin when they won 8 out of 10?

Cavan_King

LuasSimon wrote: »

It’s population that’s the main problem , if you have 6/7000 adult players like Dublin have you have a great chance of getting 30/40 top ones compared to Mayo picking from 1000 footballers . governments particularly Fine Gael have been diverting all jobs into Dublin for the last twenty years and closing many services like garda stations , banks etc in rural Ireland hence quarter of the country live in one county now - Dublin .
Mayo voted in big numbers for Fine Gael the Dublin party , 4 out of 5 seats in election before last , Mayo turkeys voting for Christmas!
If Enda Kenny etc had encouraged some of these factories to rural ireland , Mayo , Kerry etc might have jobs for young men and their families creating footballers of the present and future .

I don’t agree with the population argument to be honest. You only need 30 players. Croatia, a nation of 4 million people, made the last World Cup Final.
Belgium, a nation of 11 million people, are currently one of the best sides in the World.

Pat Gilroy may argue it’s “rascist” that a player from Leitrim can’t win an AI but stick a GDM in every club and see if they can’t compete in the next decade?

Rosita

Cavan_King wrote: »

2. Stephen Cluxton being handed a prepared victory speech by Dublin’s media manager.

Yeah, that was shocking. Players should be forced to speak off the cuff.

StupidLikeAFox

Bambi wrote: »

Which Dublin players are being paid to play Gaelic Football?

I don't expect an answer to this, but what other county has a full time CEO, a full time Performance Director, a full time marketing manager, and every club in the county with at least one or two full time coaches? The players might not be getting paid but there's zero doubt that it's a professional organisation

Cavan_King

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, that was shocking. Players should be forced to speak off the cuff.

A bit of passion wouldn’t go amiss. Not a preprepared piece of regurgitated crap that was signed off by one of the orderlies.

Conpare Cluxton’s speech to those given “off the cuff” by Ray Galligan or Conor Sweeney.

For the year that’s been in it, it shouldn’t have been hard for Cluxton to be able to find a bit of inspiration himself.

Rosita

Looking at the match tonight and how competitive Mayo managed to be for most of the game leads me to conclude that most county teams are in fact absolutely shambolic and badly coached and organised.

jimmytwotimes 2013

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

I don't expect an answer to this, but what other county has a full time CEO, a full time Performance Director, a full time marketing manager, and every club in the county with at least one or two full time coaches? The players might not be getting paid but there's zero doubt that it's a professional organisation

Someone needs to do a proper article based on a few months research with one of the other division 1 teams to see the difference. The realities of being a Dublin-based western inter-county player for example.

I'd know of a few things the selectors have to do in my county and its shocking how underfunded the whole thing is to be honest. I know theres a fear if crowds don't return soon there will be no money in the setup before long.

I can't say too much more cos I'd be breaking a confidence but the difference between the haves and have-nots is stark.

ahnowbrowncow

ooter wrote: »

How many hurlers do dublin have the pick of?

No point engaging with you, you're dogmatic in this and don't even attempt to see how others have a point.

You're still going ahead with the false equivalence of comparing Dublin's hurling success to Dublin's football in an attempt to show it's not about population and funding. Even though it's been pointed out countless times already how Dublin's hurling started at a far lower base and has improved dramatically from where it was since Dublin started receving disproportionate and unfair amounts of funding.

10 Leinsters in a row with emabrrassingly easy wins.
6 All Irelands in a row with Dublin cantering to wins and playing keep the ball for the last 20 minutes.

How many titles in a row will it take before acknowledging there's a problem?

Rosita

Cavan_King wrote: »

Prepare Cluxton’s speech to those given “off the cuff” by Ray Galligan or Conor Sweeney.

I wouldn't be surprised if he finds public speaking considerably more difficult that the players you mentioned.

Cavan_King

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't be surprised if he finds public speaking considerably more difficult that the players you mentioned.

I haven’t met many teachers who find public speaking difficult, it’s a fairly integral part of their job!

And what public was he speaking in front of today!?

LuasSimon

At least another county ( Galway ) managed to beat Dublin by a point in the under 20 final!

tobefrank321

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

One of the biggest thing the NFL do is divide the country up into 32 markets of similar size. Pretty much guarantees a natural balance. Salary cap & draft obviously a big factor as well but as you say not possible here.

But crucially the 32 markets in the USA mean that not every state gets a team. If the people of South Dakota wish to support Kansas or Minnesota then great, if they don't then the attitude is fcuk 'em. Meanwhile the big population centres have multiple teams.

We're beholden to the county concept, such that our South Dakota (make up your own mind who that is) must have a team, and our New York (Dublin obviously) has one monster team.

16 (or 24) similar sized regional teams makes more sense, but no-one wants to give up their county identity and Dublin sure as hell aren't going to give up anything if no-one else takes a hit either.

Sums up why the sport is dead.
Dublin are never going to be asked to give up home advantage for big games.
They are always going to have a massive population and funding advantage, which surpasses any natural football ability a Kerry, Galway, Tyrone or Mayo will have.
Splits and amalgamations won't happen.
And the idea that a Donegal, Tyrone, or even a Kerry could nick an All Ireland is almost laughable. The AI has become like Leinster.
Its a dead sport.