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Brexit discussion thread XIII (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

This is the thirteenth incarnation of our Brexit discussion thread.

I appreciate that the end of the Brexit Transition Period is or may be in sight (insofar as one can be certain) but please bear the following in mind before posting:

Insults directed at popular figures are not acceptable in this forum
Please do not post memes, videos or comedy links here
Please do not be uncivil to other posters
Please use the report function to alert the mods when necessary
Discussion of Sinn Féin's longstanding policy of abstention from Westminster is not suitable for this thread. Posts on this subject may be deleted

Previous thread is here:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058025860

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mrunsure

I notice some kind of reciprocal health care has been approved even in the even of No Deal, so people can get dialysis on trips to the EU.

What's the chance of reciprocal health care being retained along the lines of EHIC? Many people with pre-existing conditions are concerned that they won't be able to go on holiday unless they travel travel with pre-existing conditions excluded, or pay eye-watering premiums, if they can get coverage at all.

Professor Moriarty

mrunsure wrote: »

I notice some kind of reciprocal health care has been approved even in the even of No Deal, so people can get dialysis on trips to the EU.

What's the chance of reciprocal health care being retained along the lines of EHIC? Many people with pre-existing conditions are concerned that they won't be able to go on holiday unless they travel travel with pre-existing conditions excluded, or pay eye-watering premiums, if they can get coverage at all.

Today, Irish ambulances are in the North helping with their tsunami of Covid-19 cases. I wonder will Johnson appreciate or remember this.

CelticRambler

mrunsure wrote: »

What's the chance of reciprocal health care being retained along the lines of EHIC?

Poor. According to the Guardian's reporting, the measures announced are intended to apply in limited and very specific situations: :rolleyes:

Argar said: “This government will introduce the scheme with the intention that it is used by individuals who are certain to require treatment while abroad, such as regular dialysis, oxygen therapy or certain types of chemotherapy. The government recognises that these ongoing, routine treatment costs can be expensive and makes travelling abroad extremely challenging for many people.”

Argar said ... “Individuals will need to work with their NHS clinician to agree their treatment requirements and confirm they meet the criteria in the scheme.”

So a Tory promise that puts the onus on you to show you deserve it. I'd say there's no likelihood they'll extend coverage to non-life-threatening pre-existing conditions.

mrunsure

CelticRambler wrote: »

Poor. According to the Guardian's reporting, the measures announced are intended to apply in limited and very specific situations: :rolleyes:

So a Tory promise that puts the onus on you to show you deserve it. I'd say there's no likelihood they'll extend coverage to non-life-threatening pre-existing conditions.

Is EHIC type coverage part of the deal being negotiated at the moment?

CelticRambler

mrunsure wrote: »

Is EHIC type coverage part of the deal being negotiated at the moment?

No. The provision of healthcare is a national competence and outside the EU's remit* (sovereignty, innit :P ) The UK will have to negotiate 27 different agreements for reciprocal coverage.

* this is one reason why the EU's initial response to SARS-CoV-2 was such a disorganised mess - no common framework.

mrunsure

CelticRambler wrote: »

No. The provision of healthcare is a national competence and outside the EU's remit (sovereignty, innit :P ) The UK will have to negotiate 27 different agreements for reciprocal coverage.

In the Guardian article it says:

Argar said: “The government will assess its options for reciprocal healthcare if we do not achieve an EU-wide arrangement. This includes the possibility of negotiating bilateral arrangements on social security coordination, including reciprocal healthcare, with individual EU member states.”

So what is the "EU-wide arrangement" they are talking about, if it can only be done on a state by state basis?

Widdensushi

The proposed fishing deal seems to be taking more off the Irish, Dutch etc than the Spanish /French, I wonder why???

moon2

Widdensushi wrote: »

The proposed fishing deal seems to be taking more off the Irish, Dutch etc than the Spanish /French, I wonder why???

Have you got a link to the details of the proposal?

Igotadose

Sorry, fellah, but you're going to have to dump your ham & cheese sandwich before you can be allowed to cross the border:

Lorry drivers to lose lunches from 1 January, per the Guardian

No animal product imports allowed. So, good luck to the long-haul lorry drivers with their refrigerators and microwaves, they'll have to pick up food in the EU

Widdensushi

moon2 wrote: »

Have you got a link to the details of the proposal?

https://www.facebook.com/108934817168935/posts/482642966464783/

Inquitus

Seems to be a lot of smoke about Bojo being forced to resign if he doesn't secure a deal, its mentioned in a number of UK papers and all over twitter. The fact that he has the gumption to resign I find frankly laughable to be honest!

moon2

Widdensushi wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/108934817168935/posts/482642966464783/

Assuming our negotiating strategy remains unchanged - once an agreement has been reached in principal with the UK then the quotas for the affected EU countries will be rebalanced by the EU so no one nation is overly impacted.

The proposed fishing deal seems to be taking more off the Irish, Dutch etc than the Spanish /French, I wonder why???

The answer appears to be simple - this is the kind of fish the UK want more of.

Brussels Sprout

Widdensushi wrote: »

The proposed fishing deal seems to be taking more off the Irish, Dutch etc than the Spanish /French, I wonder why???

Widdensushi wrote: »

https://www.facebook.com/108934817168935/posts/482642966464783/

That article doesn't say anything about the comparative differences in the impact of a potential deal between Ireland and France/Spain. In fact it doesn't even mention those other 2 countries at all. It focuses on the impact on Irish fishermen specifically, since it's on a website run by a fisherman from Donegal.

volchitsa

mrunsure wrote: »

In the Guardian article it says:

Argar said: “The government will assess its options for reciprocal healthcare if we do not achieve an EU-wide arrangement. This includes the possibility of negotiating bilateral arrangements on social security coordination, including reciprocal healthcare, with individual EU member states.”

So what is the "EU-wide arrangement" they are talking about, if it can only be done on a state by state basis?

EU residents of the UK are being given EHIC cards, issued in the UK - but it's not completely clear to me from this article just how useful they wil be. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-ehic-holiday-medical-treatment-eu-b1764909.html

CelticRambler

mrunsure wrote: »

In the Guardian article it says:

Argar said: “The government will assess its options for reciprocal healthcare if we do not achieve an EU-wide arrangement. <snip>

So what is the "EU-wide arrangement" they are talking about, if it can only be done on a state by state basis?

Who knows. That's a Tory minister telling a Tory HoC what they want, not what compromises they have to make to achieve it. I imagine it would require a medium-term commitment to remain aligned to the EU budgetary cycle just like their participation in Erasmus, oh and paying a fee. The EHIC extends beyond the EU to the EEA countries, but we all know that the UK does not want to be like any of those when there's an "Australia" deal within reach.

volchitsa wrote: »

EU residents of the UK are being given EHIC cards, issued in the UK - but it's not completely clear to me from this article just how useful they wil be. https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-ehic-holiday-medical-treatment-eu-b1764909.html

That reads, to me, like either bad journalism or a "copyright infringement" on the part of the government. From the article, it seems like these "EHIC" cards can only be used in the UK - so they are essentially NHS cards being issued to EU citizens resident in the UK. The article suggests that the same EU citizen won't be able to use these pseudo-EHIC cards in the EU because, well, they're not real EHIC cards.

mrunsure

CelticRambler wrote: »

That reads, to me, like either bad journalism or a "copyright infringement" on the part of the government. From the article, it seems like these "EHIC" cards can only be used in the UK - so they are essentially NHS cards being issued to EU citizens resident in the UK. The article suggests that the same EU citizen won't be able to use these pseudo-EHIC cards in the EU because, well, they're not real EHIC cards.

I thought this is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, so that EU citizens settled in the UK don't lose their EU rights. Surely it is important for the Irish people reading this who live in the UK to understand how this works, in case they travel to the EU (other than Ireland)?

swampgas

Inquitus wrote: »

Seems to be a lot of smoke about Bojo being forced to resign if he doesn't secure a deal, its mentioned in a number of UK papers and all over twitter. The fact that he has the gumption to resign I find frankly laughable to be honest!

<dons tinfoil hat, now showing signs of excessive wear>

It's conceivable that he wouldn't mind a half-decent pretext on which to resign, and a complicit press may be willing to prepare the ground for him. He could refuse to agree a deal, then resign with his diamond-hard Brexiteer credentials unblemished.

He and Carrie could then move on to greener (and better paid) pastures.

<puts away tinfoil hat>

CelticRambler

mrunsure wrote: »

I thought this is part of the Withdrawal Agreement, so that EU citizens settled in the UK don't lose their EU rights. Surely it is important for the Irish people reading this who live in the UK to understand how this works, in case they travel to the EU (other than Ireland)?

EU citizens living in the UK are still EU citizens, entitled to live and work anywhere else in the EU, but that doesn't extend to income- and tax-based privileges. I'm a French-resident Irishman, but paying my property taxes here doesn't entitle me to having my bins emptied in Dublin; and my EHIC only entitles me to medical treatment in Ireland because I pay my social charges to the French.

An EU citizen permanently resident and financially domiciled in the UK, paying social charges to the UK government will not be entitled to tax/social-charge-based services in the EU just because they happen to hold a passport issued by an EU member state.

Unless the UK agrees to sign up to the EHIC scheme and pay the membership fee.

Igotadose

And, like clockwork, HMG has caved and will allow in EU nationals to pick fruit. Seems like the locals wouldn't do the work. My question is, if the pound is plummeting, is it still worth it to come to the UK to work?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-fruit-veg-pickers-eu-b1775742.html

"Ministers are poised to treble the number of foreign workers allowed into the UK to pick fruit and vegetables, to ease fears of rotting harvests as a result of Brexit."

swampgas

CelticRambler wrote: »

An EU citizen permanently resident and financially domiciled in the UK, paying social charges to the UK government will not be entitled to tax/social-charge-based services in the EU just because they happen to hold a passport issued by an EU member state.

Unless the UK agrees to sign up to the EHIC scheme and pay the membership fee.

Interesting point, thanks for that. Given the large number of UK residents who have acquired Irish passports recently, it would have been quite the loophole if they could avail of EHIC privileges across the EU as a result.

CelticRambler

Igotadose wrote: »

And, like clockwork, HMG has caved and will allow in EU nationals to pick fruit. Seems like the locals wouldn't do the work. My question is, if the pound is plummeting, is it still worth it to come to the UK to work?

Simple answer is no: they've already decided to travel to other more friendly countries, closer to home and at least as well- (if not better-) paid in recent years. One of those unfortunate side effects of joining the EU - countries that used to be very poor are now doing better and can afford to pay their agricultural workers higher wages. Whodathunkit.

Still, I'm sure there are plenty of impoverished Asians and Africans who'd be happy to pick fruit and veg for the Brits who won't get out of bed for less than three times the minimum wage ... :rolleyes:

Capt'n Midnight

Igotadose wrote: »

And, like clockwork, HMG has caved and will allow in EU nationals to pick fruit. Seems like the locals wouldn't do the work. My question is, if the pound is plummeting, is it still worth it to come to the UK to work?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-fruit-veg-pickers-eu-b1775742.html

"Ministers are poised to treble the number of foreign workers allowed into the UK to pick fruit and vegetables, to ease fears of rotting harvests as a result of Brexit."

But will the EU nationals come ? Or how much extra will they have to pay ?

Lots of anecdotes about hiring difficulties where in the past the UK hiring teams could pick and choose in Eastern Europe to last year where the criteria dropped to possession of opposable thumbs or thereabouts.

flutered

swampgas wrote: »

<dons tinfoil hat, now showing signs of excessive wear>

It's conceivable that he wouldn't mind a half-decent pretext on which to resign, and a complicit press may be willing to prepare the ground for him. He could refuse to agree a deal, then resign with his diamond-hard Brexiteer credentials unblemished.

He and Carrie could then move on to greener (and better paid) pastures.

<puts away tinfoil hat>

he will stay until he is entitled to the pms pension

Sam Russell

flutered wrote: »

he will stay until he is entitled to the pms pension

Would he not be entitled to be elevated to the Lords - nice little per diem - but not enough for him.

L1011

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would he not be entitled to be elevated to the Lords - nice little per diem - but not enough for him.

The last ex-PM to be elevated to the Lords was Thatcher. Major turning it down has likely broken that tradition.

[Deleted User]

Looks like it's going to be no deal (again).

Surely, we're already past the point of a deal being done before 1st Jan.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55381322
There will be no post-Brexit trade deal between the UK and EU unless there is a "substantial shift" from Brussels in the coming days, a government source has told the BBC.

It is understood there is likely to be a decision before Christmas on whether or not a deal can be reached.

The two sides have been in negotiations about how many years it will take to phase in new fisheries arrangements.

But an EU source said this was not the only remaining issue left to resolve.

"Talks are stuck," they said.

"Not just fish. The UK has other demands and the level playing field is not sorted."

Jizique

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Looks like it's going to be no deal (again).

Surely, we're already past the point of a deal being done before 1st Jan.

Johnson’s inability fox make any decision and to disappoint anyone strikes again; the easiest option is to do nothing and blame the other side for intransigence

[Deleted User]

swampgas wrote: »

Interesting point, thanks for that. Given the large number of UK residents who have acquired Irish passports recently, it would have been quite the loophole if they could avail of EHIC privileges across the EU as a result.

It's always been based on (for example here in Ireland) paying PRSI contributions or qualifying for them otherwise, rather than the symbol on the passport.

We do give out a lot of passports but haven't been foolish enough to give benefits or votes for example.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

Looks like it's going to be no deal (again).

Surely, we're already past the point of a deal being done before 1st Jan.

And Simon Coveney saying tonight the EU will not offer any more concessions on fish. They've gone as far as they're prepared to go.

AutoTuning

So, is that it then? Are we really looking at a no-deal Brexit?

It seems like the coverage of it in the UK has fizzled out this weekend due to the Coronavirus situation having become a lot more serious, but I assume we aren't going to get it over the line by Sunday evening, so the EP won't be able to finalise anything by January 1st.