whisky_galore wrote: » What was really weird was the repeated smashing of the Cahirciveen baby's gravestone. What kind of sick fcuk goes out of their way to do that?
jimmycrackcorm wrote: » Yes the Guards screwed up the investigation, but there's very little said about this: "Hayes had already delivered her child – a baby boy who had died during or after his birth on the farm. She told gardaí this, explaining that after the labour she panicked and returned to the farmhouse. A day later, she returned to the spot to find the baby’s body. She put the remains in a paper bag and then a plastic bag before placing them in a pond elsewhere on the 65-acre farm." I know well it was another era regarding unmarried mothers. But abandoning a defenceless baby like that is a cruel action. It might be excused by post-natal depression for example, yet she is now lauded and entitled to compensation?
Antares35 wrote: » Was it ever ascertained how her own baby died or if it was stillborn?
Johnthemanager wrote: » Horrible Post!
As part of the settlement, the family also secured declarations from the court that all findings or wrongdoing made against them by the tribunal into the case, that took place between late 1984 to mid-1985, were unfounded and incorrect.
Caquas wrote: » Not a single iota of new evidence but the slate is wiped clean by a political decision and we now have no idea what actually happened to the two babies who died. In that case, Alan Shatter shouldn't settle for less than five million. The Kerry Babies Tribunal was a model of transparency and due process compared to the Guerin report, a blatant stitch-up, at least in terms of the political ends for which it was used. Shatter suffered enormously because of that injustice and, unlike the Hayes family, he was not the author of his own misfortunate - he didn't lie to the Gardai or conceal the birth of a baby. He lost his position as Minister for Justice and he was made to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court where he won his case convincingly. He got a mealy-mouthed apology and, until this week, the Guerin Report was left on the record in the Library of the Houses of the Oireachtas, where he had served for decades before being shafted by his own party. Somehow, no one is rallying to his cause. On the contrary, people still believe the lies Guerin spread about Shatter's treatment of Maurice McCabe. Is Shatter the wrong party, the wrong gender, the wrong class, or the wrong religion? You say whataboutism? I say precedent, fairness and logical consistency.https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/alan-shatter-wants-taoiseach-to-apologise-fully-for-damage-done-by-guerin-report-1.4441000
Andrea B. wrote: » It has been determined via DNA that the beach baby was not Joanne's. I suspect that they are also fairly sure of the identity of the parent/s of that baby, but due to passage of time/lost evidence/social status of parents, it has been parked?
Galwayguy35 wrote: » Why would have been parked as you say if they know the parents of baby John? He was murdered so they have questions to answer if their identity is known.
Bannasidhe wrote: » A young woman in her 20s was vilified by the court of public opinion (and still is being by posters such as yourself), subjected to reams of media articles and speculation (still is), accused of committing a heinous crime without a shred of evidence, treated so appallingly by the Gardaí it required a Tribunal - and now, 36 years later the State is compensating her and her family for what the forces of the State brought to her door but to you the treatment , unjust though it might have been, meted out to a highly paid politician was worse. A politician who himself used his position to vilify a political opponent via the public broadcaster using information acquired from the Gardaí, and retired on a nice pension pot, had the wherewithal to take the State to the Supreme court and fight his case. If people wonder what 1984 was like for women in this country your posts give an excellent indication. The 'slate' as you put it, was wiped by the failure of the State and it's agents to conduct a proper investigation 36 years ago but to instead allow a witchhunt against a young woman. A witchhunt you are determined to continue.
Andrea B. wrote: » If DNA can tell it is not Joanne"s, then it can tell whose it is. I do not know why it is being pursued.
Call me Al wrote: » So many of the young women nowadays don't realise how dramatically life has changed for women. Kerry babies is only 36 years ago. It was an alternate reality to anything they might accept nowadays.
Graces7 wrote: » It was indeed a totally different world that many here are too young to even imagine. Even for us old ones who are not Irish. And why oh why did the women and girls get all the blame and aggression and punishment? Unless biology too was different in those days, every illegitimate baby had a father. Who got off scot free from any involvement or responsibility.
Edgware wrote: » There was a lot horrible about the whole situation but just because there are aspects that dont agree with peoples agenda doesnt mean they shouldnt be raised. If the birth had taken place in a maternity hospital the baby would have immediate access to the best ante natal care. Whatever type of beliefs and pressures were on the poor girl that prevented her and her family from doing so we will never understand. We would hope that society has changed for the better. I recall the criticism when the Unmarried Mothers Allowance ( What a title!) was introduced in 1973 by Brendan Corish of the Labour Party. The usual suspects objected. Most of the progressive social legislation has been introduced because of E.E.C ( now E.U.) membership. Ironic seeing that parties such as Labour, Sinn Fein and the broad left were so anti E.E.C. and campaigned agaibst membership
Caquas wrote: » Indeed. Ireland in 1984 was very different from Ireland in the 1950s, especially for single mothers and Joanne Hayes was an example. She already had a baby and continued her life undisturbed including a job with the local authority. The holding of a tribunal was itself a sign of a changing Ireland. The Garda Commissioner had held an internal inquiry about this fiasco of this investigation but in Ireland of the 1980s the issue was not swept under the carpet. The daughter of Mr. Justice Kevin Lynch answered his critics when he was not around to defend himself.https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kerry-babies-judge-was-not-a-pitiless-illiberal-misogynist-1.3386617 I hope Ms. Justice Leonie Reynolds blushes at the facile declaration she issued this week, obliterating the findings of a superior jurist who devoted long months to find the truth. She learned from her Dad how to deal with Tribunals.
KaneToad wrote: » Is it considered nasty to point out the behaviour of the Hayes family in the illegal concealment of the birth and subsequent death of her baby. Did anyone ever face criminal sanction for this? If not, why not? This is not to say that the family were not treated appallingly in relation to the link to the death of the other infant.
[Deleted User] wrote: » Could it be argued they were really old fashioned??....as burying unborn babies in killens went on till the 70s near my fathers homeplace (idk when church restrictions ended on burying unbaptised babies?) Still see odd bunchs of flowers appear there,sad to think in a few years,noone will remember these
Caquas wrote: » I refer you to the findings of the Tribunal itself which were produced by a leading Judge after hearing evidence under oath from everyone involved and based on his detailed analysis of the facts. As I said repeatedly, the whole business is a mess from beginning to end but the Tribunal got it right. It criticised the Gardai for their investigative failings but it found that the Gardai had not beaten any witnesses. Are the false allegations by the Hayes brothers against named Gardai now to be believed? (and, again, the Garda's "superfecundation" theory is nonsense and was dismissed by the Tribunal) Contrary to your stereotypical vision of Kerry in 1984 - and unlike Kerry in 1954 - no one bothered this young single mother who continued to live a normal life and to work for the local authority until she concealed the birth of her second child and the family lied to the Gardai about it although everyone knew a baby's body had washed up in Cahersiveen, brutally murdered.
Bannasidhe wrote: » And I refer you once again to the fact that Joanne Hayes has not been charged, tried, or convicted of any crime in relation to the death of her child. Or indeed convicted of any crime whatsoever. Blah blah about my views of Kerry in 1984 all you like - while knowing nothing about me and claim the Tribunal stated x, y,z but that doesn't change the facts that you are here, on this forum, stating catagrically that Joanne Hayes was directly responsible for the death of her child -an extremely serious allegation - so you either take the evidence you have to the authorities and wait for a subsequent trail or retract your allegations.
Caquas wrote: » I thought misogyny in Kerry in 1984 was the central issue for posters here but when challenged you shift ground. I repeat again, I rely on the findings of the Tribunal, despite the bogus Court declaration this week which renounced the Tribunal without hearing a single witness. You say I can’t make accusations unless someone is convicted of a crime in a court of law. Let’s hear your defence of Charlie Haughey, for example, against the many criminal charges made against him but never proven in a criminal court (despite the findings of the McCracken Tribunal). But I believe Joanne Hayes (i.e. what she told the psychiatrist) and Mr. Justice Kevin Lynch, who lambasted the Gardai but found there was no physical coercion of the Hayes brothers. This week’s bogus Court declaration dismissing the Tribunal left unanswered the central issue in this case: what happened the two babies? The Tribunal established that Joanne Hayes was not the mother of the Cahersiveen baby but she smothered her own baby and concealed its birth with her family’s help. Now they are millionaires because our politicians have magic money and the media have long been invested in their story, but the truth can’t be bought.
Caquas wrote: » Not a single iota of new evidence but the slate is wiped clean by a political decision and we now have no idea what actually happened to the two babies who died.
Caquas wrote: » I refer you to the findings of the Tribunal itself which were produced by a leading Judge after hearing evidence under oath from everyone involved and based on his detailed analysis of the facts. As I said repeatedly....the Tribunal got it right.
Caquas wrote: » Contrary to your stereotypical vision of Kerry in 1984 - and unlike Kerry in 1954 - no one bothered this young single mother who continued to live a normal life and to work for the local authority until she concealed the birth of her second child and the family lied to the Gardai about it although everyone knew a baby's body had washed up in Cahersiveen, brutally murdered.
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