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Is anyone paying tax?

moycullen14

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

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ElJeffe

Mickey_James wrote: »

I say fair play to them.

I would be the same. I'm fed up with the systems in this country.

I pay PAYE for a decade and house prices are a joke yet there's people getting free houses they don't deserve and they've never worked a day in their lives.

I was watching supergarden this year, the estate was a social housing development. One of the people was crippled in a wheelchair, fair enough, wouldn't mind her!

Then there was a young, health stay at home mother of 2 kids. Not working! And then I was on facebook and I saw her profile and she was on 2 week tour of Ireland for her staycation!

Meanwhile I wouldn't afford that. And that's where my tax is going? **** off.

She gets a free house for life, while I might get the luxury of one day getting into debt up to my tits for 30 years for the privelidge of a 2nd hand matchbox!

Social housing isn't free. You pay a percentage of your income to the relevant council for rent.

GarIT

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

Theres 2 different discussions at play here,

Theres no doubt that the public sector is bloated an wasteful.

As regards cash, every economy needs an element of cash, as it still indirectly contributes to the economy.

To play to stereotypes, If Anto is sitting at home in his council provided house, but does a few jobs here and there for cash, painting kitchens or cleaning gutters, even if he spends that money on cigarettes, booze and takeaways, hes still contributing to the economy. You'll never (and we shouldn't strive to) eliminate cash completely.

I'd doubt the public sector is bloated and wasteful. There are likely a few that game the system but a lot doing their best to provide a high quality service without being able to cut any legal corners like the private sector.

I'm in favour of eliminating cash. Personal bank accounts aren't even monitored for money coming in unles is goes over certain quite high thresholds.

ELM327

ElJeffe wrote: »

Social housing isn't free. You pay a percentage of your income to the relevant council for rent.

Yes but the delta between market rent and your twenty quid or fifty quid a week "rent" is made up by the state.

And for the majority of those in social housing that are not employed, the remaining twenty or fifty quid comes from social welfare, meaning 100% of the cost is in effect taxpayer funded anyway.

GarIT

ElJeffe wrote: »

Social housing isn't free. You pay a percentage of your income to the relevant council for rent.

Ok, it's 95% off the going rate and the majority of rent is being paid by the social welfare before getting handed to the council.

enricoh

Nermal wrote: »

It would be wasted to the the same proportion as it is now. There will always be justifications for spending more. It's up to us to starve the beast, otherwise there is no incentive for it to be efficient.

My missus works in the ps and they were replacing an item worth under 100k and she was complaining about how they were getting shafted on it.
By the time she finished telling me about the exorbitant price of the new one, installation fee, removal fee on old one ( they'd get 5-10k easy selling old one on top). Any additional work had to be done by their men, materials supplied by them etc etc - I just said fair play to the crowd.

if you can get suckers like that, they should be bled dry!

GarIT

enricoh wrote: »

My missus works in the ps and they were replacing an item worth under 100k and she was complaining about how they were getting shafted on it.
By the time she finished telling me about the exorbitant price of the new one, installation fee, removal fee on old one ( they'd get 5-10k easy selling old one on top). Any additional work had to be done by their men, materials supplied by them etc etc - I just said fair play to the crowd.

if you can get suckers like that, they should be bled dry!

The people paying out have their hands tied. They can't negotiate or go to another supplier if it has gone through tender.

Antares35

NIMAN wrote: »

I always wondered how big this grey economy is?

Must be large percentage. Again if all these folk and all the huge companies paid their tax properly then how much better would our schools, hospitals, roads, etc be?

No better off, because it would just be more money siphoned off for HSE middle management deadwood.

Antares35

GarIT wrote: »

Ok, it's 95% off the going rate and the majority of rent is being paid by the social welfare before getting handed to the council.

Yup, 92percent on average paid by local authorities ie taxpayer and other 8percent by tenant. Even then it's means tested with reductions for each dependant etc.

CoBo55

NIMAN wrote: »

I always wondered how big this grey economy is?

Must be large percentage. Again if all these folk and all the huge companies paid their tax properly then how much better would our schools, hospitals, roads, etc be?

There would be no difference the money would still be squandered on the likes of the unpriced childrens hospital and the rest making its way into politicians pockets.

eastie17

moycullen14 wrote: »

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

Sorry haven't read all the way through the thread so this may already be said, the revenue get around this by estimating your income. If its any sort of mainstream trade, or business, they know how much it should be turning over based on location and other relevant factors. When they audit you, and every registered for tax business nearly expects it every 5 years or so now, then no matter how clean you think your books are, if they suspect you are underreporting you'll get a bill, no penalties or fines, just pay this tax bill please and we'll go away. Most accountants will just tell you to pay it for an easy life. Your call then if you decide to go with it or not. I do know of some retail businesses that appear to do everything by the book and have been told to pay this which obviously isn't fair but the message is its not worth fighting.
In some respects its a clever way of catching up with those people, naturally if there is wholesale evidence of tax avoidance and you dont engage, good luck and thanks. The penalties and interest will quickly outweigh whatever you might have owed.

ExMachina1000

The health service for example is given an absolute fortune of tax payers dosh each year and still manages to come out bottom of the table in many categories when compared to other European countries.

I pay cash. Tax take is flittered away by government

ELM327

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

The health service for example is given an absolute fortune of tax payers dosh each year and still manages to come out bottom of the table in many categories when compared to other European countries.

I pay cash. Tax take is flittered away by government

We come out near the top in one "health" category, per capita spending!

topmanamillion

NIMAN wrote: »

I always wondered how big this grey economy is?

Must be large percentage. Again if all these folk and all the huge companies paid their tax properly then how much better would our
schools, hospitals, roads, etc be?

Obviously people should pay tax but I'm not buying the last bit.
The HSE has one of the biggest per capita
budgets for a health service in the western world. It's still dog sh1t.
More money won't improve the health service one iota.
All it would do is add more layers of bureaucracy and "management".

Roads aren't bad overall with a few grey areas.
But we can only build so many roads, at some point car pooling, public transport etc will have to be prioritised.

Our schools aren't bad and we've a huge surplus of teachers at primary and secondary level. Primary school enrolments are projected to drop 20% over the next 15 years so upgrading existing infrastructure and consolidation of small schools should be the priority there.

BrianD3

A lot of cash in hand lads advertising and promoting their businesses on Facebook, anyone can view these pages, Mr Revenue doesn't even need to be a facebook friend. It wouldn't be hard to compare the work they've claimed to have done with their tax return and draw a few conclusions.

The fact that there is so much cash in hand work going on and everyone knows this would make me think that big scary Revenue aren't as good as people think they are. Or are only going after the very blatant cases where people push it too far, splash the money around or piss someone off enough to report them.

The only people I've ever reported to Revenue are Tinkers calling to the door trying to rip off my elderly mother. I give Revenue van registrations, scans of flyers etc. via the anonymous reporting line. I'm not sure if it does any good but better than nothing hopefully.

ElJeffe

GarIT wrote: »

Ok, it's 95% off the going rate and the majority of rent is being paid by the social welfare before getting handed to the council.

I lived in a social house for 12 years until we moved and bought our own place and never missed a days work. Worked my ass off to support my family and save for a deposit for a mortgage. So did many of my friends i grew up with. It's nowhere near 95% off the going rate that just tripe btw.

Getting pretty sick of this nonsense that people in social housing don't work and get everything for free. It seems to be a commonly held view on here by a few posters also. Do some never get off their arses, yes of course but it's disingenuous in the extreme to label all the same.

Social housing is NOT free.

sbsquarepants

topmanamillion wrote: »

Primary school enrolments are projected to drop 20% over the next 15 years so upgrading existing infrastructure and consolidation of small schools should be the priority there.

Really? Why is that?
I would have thought our population was growing.

[Deleted User]

enricoh wrote: »

My missus works in the ps and they were replacing an item worth under 100k and she was complaining about how they were getting shafted on it.
By the time she finished telling me about the exorbitant price of the new one, installation fee, removal fee on old one ( they'd get 5-10k easy selling old one on top). Any additional work had to be done by their men, materials supplied by them etc etc - I just said fair play to the crowd.

if you can get suckers like that, they should be bled dry!

For under 100k, you're probably on e-tenders/frameworks.
no reason to not get good value.
Its the major contracts the gouging starts.
Any public servant I've dealt with spend it like its their own.

Mimon

moycullen14 wrote: »

What the revenue do is just scare people into compliance.

Take grinds, for example, pick a teacher, any teacher, and hammer them for non tax payment on grind money. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

Make a big song and dance about it in the media. Teacher earned 5K per year for the last 15 years on grinds, interest, tax and penalties, say 200K.

Wouldn't be long getting everyone in line :-)

Anyone with any experience of the revenue knows they are the most efficient branch of the CS (the bar is fairly low). Surprised they haven't gone down this road

Would just probably mean that it would not be worth the teachers time doing the grinds as the would be taxed at the marginal rate.

They have promised for years to raise the threshold but as far as I know they've raised it only once by a small in the last few years. Ridiculous and can't blame people for circumventing nonsensical tax policies.

Mimon

ELM327 wrote: »

This happens in the private sector too though. I've worked in both.

Yes, we use labels in the lab in the multinational I work in. We discovered it was 260 euro for 300 labels! We started drawing lines on them so we could use them 6 times instead of once.

If you want to make money become a supplier to one of these companies.

Antares35

BrianD3 wrote: »

A lot of cash in hand lads advertising and promoting their businesses on Facebook, anyone can view these pages, Mr Revenue doesn't even need to be a facebook friend. It wouldn't be hard to compare the work they've claimed to have done with their tax return and draw a few conclusions.

The fact that there is so much cash in hand work going on and everyone knows this would make me think that big scary Revenue aren't as good as people think they are. Or are only going after the very blatant cases where people push it too far, splash the money around or piss someone off enough to report them.

The only people I've ever reported to Revenue are Tinkers calling to the door trying to rip off my elderly mother. I give Revenue van registrations, scans of flyers etc. via the anonymous reporting line. I'm not sure if it does any good but better than nothing hopefully.

They probably can't prosecute them anyway because that would be discrimination.

[Deleted User]

I have been involved in a lot of residential renovations. I'd say about 20% of the tradesmen we came across were legit and put everything through the books. The rest ask for cash.

Recently got a quote for a roof replacement in Kildare that came to 25k, again cash only wanted. Not sure how they expect customers to withdraw such sums from the banks without being flagged.

I have also never been to a mechanic who didn't want to offer me one of their vat free deals.

partyguinness

Nobody wants to pay more than necessary- I am no different but what annoys me is that tradesmen are almost expected to paid in cash.

Jesus I thought it was an Irish thing but I have lived in England for the last 10 years and it's far worse over here.

Even my English wife just automatically pays in cash (we had an extension done a few years ago- not much change from £120k) and is horrifed that I would insist on receipts etc.

My profession it is heavily regulated and money laundering is an everyday preoccupation. I don't get paid in cash. We do not handle cash and I get hammered in tax to the extent our entire childrens' allowance is clawed back (yes in England you are taxed on it).

GarIT

ElJeffe wrote: »

I lived in a social house for 12 years until we moved and bought our own place and never missed a days work. Worked my ass off to support my family and save for a deposit for a mortgage. So did many of my friends i grew up with. It's nowhere near 95% off the going rate that just tripe btw.

Getting pretty sick of this nonsense that people in social housing don't work and get everything for free. It seems to be a commonly held view on here by a few posters also. Do some never get off their arses, yes of course but it's disingenuous in the extreme to label all the same.

Social housing is NOT free.

I wish I had that luxury. In a similar situation but had to move back in with parents as I couldn't afford 60-70% of my net income going on rent.

I'm not against social housing but the sharp divide in the quality of life between someone just over and someone just under the threshold is depressing.

If I earned €5k less I'd be €10-15k better off a year but that would destroy my future career prospects.

The problem with social housing isn't social housing, it's the squeezed middle and the people just above the thresholds.

And sure it's not free but you're no worse off than I am and you're paying at most 1/4 of what I'd be paying.

partyguinness

I remember talking to a client about 15 years ago. He sold a warehouse for €3.5m but €500k went between them in cash.

I had to ask about the logistics. €500k is a lot of paper to haul around.

Basically they hid it around the premies in barrels etc and just paid lads in cash. They had all sorts of side projects on the go and employed diggers and tradesman all the time.

ELM327

ElJeffe wrote: »

I lived in a social house for 12 years until we moved and bought our own place and never missed a days work. Worked my ass off to support my family and save for a deposit for a mortgage. So did many of my friends i grew up with. It's nowhere near 95% off the going rate that just tripe btw.

Getting pretty sick of this nonsense that people in social housing don't work and get everything for free. It seems to be a commonly held view on here by a few posters also. Do some never get off their arses, yes of course but it's disingenuous in the extreme to label all the same.

Social housing is NOT free.

It's still funded by the taxpayer though.
If it weren't, it wouldnt exist as you would have been able to rent/buy on the free market

sdanseo

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Fúck the moralising - if i can get the work done cheaper for cash, i'm fine with that!

That's short term gain for long term pain and hurts everyone in the long run.

It's not all about this - the tax system needs dramatic reform and I won't begrudge you the attitude. But it doesn't help. And it's rampant.

Wanderer78

So the question is, how come housing has become so expensive?

GarIT

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So the question is, how come housing has become so expensive?

Building not keeping up with immigration and population growth.

And companies buying up any available housing for investments.

ELM327

Wanderer78 wrote: »

So the question is, how come housing has become so expensive?

Moving from 1 salary to 2 salaries on mortgages in the mid 00's was the first large shift.

Costs have gone up with all the new regs too.

[Deleted User]

ElJeffe wrote: »

I lived in a social house for 12 years.......... It's nowhere near 95% off the going rate that just tripe btw.............

Over the 12 years how much rent did you pay?
And what were you earning as you were working your ass off?