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Is anyone paying tax?

moycullen14

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

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monkeynuz

I’ve had people ask me in the past if they can pay cash, and my answer is always “yes of course you can although I’m just as happy with a cheque as it all goes through the books” that soon stops them thinking they can get a “discount for cash” my expenses are the same whether I declare the money or not so why not just be honest.

ELM327

Effective tax rate as a paye worker is 33% for me. If I hire a business to do work then you can be damn sure it's going to be above board. I pay too much tax to risk dodgy dealings. I've been audited by the revenue before and it's a painful process. They are the only part of the PS that actually do their job well.

Giving tips etc in cash is another thing. Generally if you tip someone they are on a lower/low skilled wage (like a bar server, taxi driver or barber etc) and they need the money.

Stone Deaf 4evr

I think you just have to accept that there is always some element of cash / bartering going on in all facets business,

I've done work for friends relative to my profession, but I'll be able to call on them when I need their expertise on something else.

The one warning I would give - small jobs and small sums are fine, but paying for large trades in cash is a recipe for trouble, as you'll have no paper trail / comeback if anything goes wrong.

ELM327

^ theres a difference between "barter" between friends and cooking the books

gary550

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the thingswe need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals...etc..etc....

or maybe the bloated inefficiencies we are famous for just get more bloated, we really have a shocking track record for use of public funds and said abuse of public funds

I'd be much quicker to support a purge on the absolute do nothing morons that are a plenty in the public service than a purge on tradesmen who are actually doing something for a living and scrape a few pound off tax free for themselves.

Pawwed Rig

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

Ash.J.Williams

if a deliveroo driver missed a vat payment they'd have the sherrif kicking in the door within months

Ash.J.Williams

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

are you an actual moderator?

Pawwed Rig

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

are you an actual moderator?

Yes why?

Nermal

thebourke wrote: »

if everybody paid the proper level of tax in this country...maybe we could have money for the things we need...like proper infrastructure..hospitals.. water supply...flooding defences...environment.etc..etc....

It would be wasted to the the same proportion as it is now. There will always be justifications for spending more. It's up to us to starve the beast, otherwise there is no incentive for it to be efficient.

Pawwed Rig

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

if a deliveroo driver missed a vat payment they'd have the sherrif kicking in the door within months

It would be unlikely that a deliveroo driver would need to be registered for VAT unless they were earning above €37,500.

RandRuns

Although some tradespeople insist on cash because of a tax dodge, that's not the only reason.
Non-payment of tradespeople is rife in Ireland, both on the construction side, where subbies always get stiffed if the margins are tight (there are a couple of Tier 1 and Tier 2 contractors that are notorious for deliberately pricing in non-payment of a subbie or two in order to keep a tender low), and on the private side. Tradespeople can't do much to stop it on the construction side, other than avoiding the more notorious non-payers, but on the private work side, they will often insist on cash, as, in the words of a sparky I know "cash can't bounce".
A lot of tradespeople have learned the hard way that, on domestic work, if you are one of the later tradespeople to get paid (electrician, plumber, painter etc.) that the kitty can be nearly dry, and insisting on cash reduces the chances of not getting paid.

Mickey_James

I say fair play to them.

I would be the same. I'm fed up with the systems in this country.

I pay PAYE for a decade and house prices are a joke yet there's people getting free houses they don't deserve and they've never worked a day in their lives.

I was watching supergarden this year, the estate was a social housing development. One of the people was crippled in a wheelchair, fair enough, wouldn't mind her!

Then there was a young, health stay at home mother of 2 kids. Not working! And then I was on facebook and I saw her profile and she was on 2 week tour of Ireland for her staycation!

Meanwhile I wouldn't afford that. And that's where my tax is going? **** off.

She gets a free house for life, while I might get the luxury of one day getting into debt up to my tits for 30 years for the privelidge of a 2nd hand matchbox!

Stone Deaf 4evr

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

We would just have a more bloated public sector with little in the way of increases in services.

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

PARlance

McGinniesta wrote: »

Why would you insist on the VAT receipt unless you could claim it back?

Alternatively, the guy who did the work would put the VAT through the books and it would go towards a possible vat refund for them.

There are many possible uses for receipts outside of just claiming vat back.

The person providing the goods or services isn't going to get a refund for that vat. They have to pay it over to the Revenue. If they don't record it then they don't have to pay it over (they could still be claiming a Vat refund, they have more of a refund if they don't declare the invoice in question).

ELM327

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

This happens in the private sector too though. I've worked in both.

relax carry on

moycullen14 wrote: »

What the revenue do is just scare people into compliance.

Take grinds, for example, pick a teacher, any teacher, and hammer them for non tax payment on grind money. Shouldn't be too hard to find one.

Make a big song and dance about it in the media. Teacher earned 5K per year for the last 15 years on grinds, interest, tax and penalties, say 200K.

Wouldn't be long getting everyone in line :-)

Anyone with any experience of the revenue knows they are the most efficient branch of the CS (the bar is fairly low). Surprised they haven't gone down this road

Its because Revenue are bound by rules. Tax evaders aren't.

GarIT

Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »

This is an actual fact.

my wife works for a public sector

without giving too many specifics, they were quoted 10K for a small fitted kitchen in a canteen that could easily have been done for 2K , and 800 euros to move 2 couches from one building to another - a job I'd have done for 100 in my spare time if asked.

plus you've oceans of hoop jumping involving tendering processes, approved suppliers, etc etc, that serve nothing more than to keep the work contained to an old boys network of sorts.

The opposite in fact. The whole tendering process exists to stop people giving jobs to their mates which the civil service was often accused of.

NIMAN

We all know stories about how much is spent doing gov jobs, but as said it happens in the private sector exactly the same.

I work for a multinational and the money they spend is crazy too.

They have procedures and preferred sellers for items, they don't go out to Argos or Amazon to buy their tech. Same for the PS here.

We all know you'd move a couch for 100 for them, but that's not how the world works.

Padre_Pio

Pataman wrote: »

You are right, sure who needs hospitals, transport, community health, street lighting etc

When has tax ever been ringfenced for things like this.

It all goes in a big leaky trough. The govt have no problem wasting billions on stupid sh*te.

That 2 million euro printer they bought? The one they needed to knock walls in Dail Eireann for? Still hasn't been used, cause they haven't hired people to run it.

So the supposed money it was meant to save still isn't being saved. They just have a pile of junk sitting there, depreciating, probably getting monthly services for no reason.

NIMAN wrote: »

We all know stories about how much is spent doing gov jobs, but as said it happens in the private sector exactly the same.

I'll agree with that, but the checks and balances are usually much stricter.
People are more likely to be fired, demoted, denied bonuses and promotions if they f*ck up.

Duke of Url

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

Yeah it’s rampant, if you insist on a VAT receipt you can add 30% onto your bill. No one wants to pay more so it’s a catch 22.

Trades people are not giving you 30% off by paying in cash

Mitch Connor

moycullen14 wrote: »

Over the last 12 months, I've had a fair bit of work done on the house involving various trades: plumber, carpenter, painter, etc.

Each and every one insisted on being paid in cash. no invoice, nothing. whatever about the morality of it, the annual income tax returns for these people must make interesting reading. How much is actually being declared for tax? Or is it something else that I'm missing.

This isn't a rant or begrudgery, I'm just intrigued about how widespread it is.

Glass back done in Kitchen. Invoiced and paid.
Stairs put into attic. Invoiced and paid.
Flooring done in attic. Invoiced and paid.
Shed put in garden. Invoiced and paid.

Had other work on the garden and some electrical work done by family, cash in hand (Paid for materials and a 'thank you')

sbsquarepants

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

All the government is good for is spending money. Value for money doesn't seem to enter the thought processes

2.5m a year to post out payslips to teachers, i heard on the radio during the week. But the few hundred in vat you save by paying a plumber in cash is the reason the health service sucks balls!

Stone Deaf 4evr

GarIT wrote: »

The opposite in fact. The whole tendering process exists to stop people giving jobs to their mates which the civil service was often accused of.

This is the theory behind it, but the reality is not the case.
you've to meet certain criteria before you're even eligible to tender, so naturally that eliminates a lot of smaller operators who wouldn't be up to speed with the e-tender process, and you can be sure that anyone who does tender is pumping up the costs because the state is footing the bill.

My wife went to regional management about it - she couldn't in good conscience, give €800 to move two couches - an hours work for 2 men and a van, when that would have paid a weeks wages for a full time worker with a degree. She was met with a shrug.

The public sector is riddled with this kind of craic, and no ones held accountable. At least in the private sector, its not coming out of the public purse.

moycullen14

Ah come on, let's be honest. You evade tax because a) you can and b) because you want to keep the money.

No way are you thinking, I'll keep this money because I disagree with government spending policies.

KiKi III

Some of my clients pay me through PayPal and I often wonder if I’d get away without declaring it.

I use it for online shopping so it never hits my bank account.

Not relevant at the moment as I’ll be going for a mortgage so declaring 100% of my income but I’d be interested in whether you could get away with it.

Stone Deaf 4evr

Theres 2 different discussions at play here,

Theres no doubt that the public sector is bloated an wasteful.

As regards cash, every economy needs an element of cash, as it still indirectly contributes to the economy.

To play to stereotypes, If Anto is sitting at home in his council provided house, but does a few jobs here and there for cash, painting kitchens or cleaning gutters, even if he spends that money on cigarettes, booze and takeaways, hes still contributing to the economy. You'll never (and we shouldn't strive to) eliminate cash completely.

sbsquarepants

moycullen14 wrote: »

Ah come on, let's be honest. You evade tax because a) you can and b) because you want to keep the money.
.

In a world where loopholes are deliberately created for the use of giant corporations, i have absolutely zero moral or ethical problem with any joe soap "robbing" the tax man.

I fully understand that some people might get their knickers in a twist over that, but basically fúck them. They are entitled to their opinions but they won't keep me awake at night, or change my viewpoint. If i can keep my hard earned money, for my own personal use, i absolutely will do that every single time.

ELM327

NIMAN wrote: »

We all know stories about how much is spent doing gov jobs, but as said it happens in the private sector exactly the same.

I work for a multinational and the money they spend is crazy too.

They have procedures and preferred sellers for items, they don't go out to Argos or Amazon to buy their tech. Same for the PS here.

We all know you'd move a couch for 100 for them, but that's not how the world works.

Same here.
I've even seen the same thing with couches being moved for ridiculous money.

screamer

RandRuns wrote: »

Although some tradespeople insist on cash because of a tax dodge, that's not the only reason.
Non-payment of tradespeople is rife in Ireland, both on the construction side, where subbies always get stiffed if the margins are tight (there are a couple of Tier 1 and Tier 2 contractors that are notorious for deliberately pricing in non-payment of a subbie or two in order to keep a tender low), and on the private side. Tradespeople can't do much to stop it on the construction side, other than avoiding the more notorious non-payers, but on the private work side, they will often insist on cash, as, in the words of a sparky I know "cash can't bounce".
A lot of tradespeople have learned the hard way that, on domestic work, if you are one of the later tradespeople to get paid (electrician, plumber, painter etc.) that the kitty can be nearly dry, and insisting on cash reduces the chances of not getting paid.

Indeed, in the uk subbies must be paid in 30 days from invoice and there’s a fast track way to deal with it. But here, no it doesn’t exist, and why? Because then our government would have to pay on time too, and they don’t. There’s so much wrong in construction that could be easily fixed. When I see things like the kids hospital overrun on budget I just think good enough for them too, that’s the crap system they put in place for tendering.