Home heating automation

salnado wrote: »

Hi,
I am looking for some Tado advise, apologies if it is already covered above.

I have a Vitodens 100W WB1W boiler, an upstairs circuit and a downstairs circuit both with wired thermostats, and a hot water circuit with a strap-on cylinder stat. These are all wired, via a wiring centre to an EPH T37-HW controller as in the attached drawing.

The thermostats are poor and the downstairs one is badly located so I purchased the Tado wireless smart thermostat starter kit and an extra smart wired thermostat on Black Friday. They arrived last week, but on starting the install Tado's app says they don't support the EPH T37 HW.

Initial response from Tado's support is "Unfortunately, we are not compatible with a three channel programmer, so you can not replace that device with our Extension Kit" and advised me to return the wireless stat and put in two wired stats and use the existing controller set to constant for the heating circuits. This is not ideal due to the location of the wiring for the downstairs stat.

From what I had read here, I thought that I could install the wireless thermostat for the downstairs circuit and the wired one for upstairs and was prepared to pull apart and rewire from the wiring centre if necessary. Can anyone tell me if Tado's response is my only option or if I can wire it up the way I want it.

Thanks in advance

your existing wiring circuit is too vague to draw any real conclusions from, but if the controller is a standard 3 zone EPH, it should be possible to simply substitute the Tado as you suggest, with the ext kit replacing the outputs of HW and CH1, and a wired back connnection from the other Tado stat to trigger CH2. Try to establish if all zones are independent, with each operating only its own motorised valve. The boiler model you listed is proving difficult to find an installation wiring diagram for, but I assume it is fired by the combination of all three valve relays, possibly volt free. I note an orange and grey wire to what must be the boiler call terminals. I have only found this boiler model on US sites, installation in the US can be strange, volt free for firing, and odd connections for external valves, but I'd take it yours is a straight 2 pipe connection with s plan valves to the 3 zones, HW in a cylinder, not direct from the boiler. Also, the model of the EPH is T37 or R37? the HW designated models can have a gravity mode switch, using the HW output to fire the boiler for all events. Again the presence of three valves should indicate proper s plan wiring, hence the need to check for zone independence.
A photo of the EPH backing plate wiring would be useful also. Its not clear from your diagram at what stage the zone thermostats are wired in series with the EPH live calls to the zone valves, but it should not make any difference, if you merely substitute the ext kit for the EPH, wiring CH 1 and HW in place of the first 2 EPH zones, then wiring EPH CH 2 to permanent live and replacing it's wired stat with the Tado. Also turn the old CH1 stat up full or else remove and cross its connections.

JohnDeereIE

Sorry if this is stupid question. I have a system with two thermostats. One for heating and one for water. Both are wired and I want to swap with Tado. Went to a supplier and he wants 120 euro just to drive 10 mins over the road to look and says it will probably cost circa 1200 euro which is crazy.
I was going to buy the equipment myself and a mate who is electrician said he would install. Am I correct this is the kit I need to buy?
Tado Wired Heating Starter Kit
Water Starter kit

I can only seem to find the Water starter kit with the wireless but at the moment I have a wired existing thermostat. Or am I talking gibberish.

salnado

Hi,
I am looking for some Tado advise, apologies if it is already covered above.

I have a Vitodens 100W WB1W boiler, an upstairs circuit and a downstairs circuit both with wired thermostats, and a hot water circuit with a strap-on cylinder stat. These are all wired, via a wiring centre to an EPH T37-HW controller as in the attached drawing.

The thermostats are poor and the downstairs one is badly located so I purchased the Tado wireless smart thermostat starter kit and an extra smart wired thermostat on Black Friday. They arrived last week, but on starting the install Tado's app says they don't support the EPH T37 HW.

Initial response from Tado's support is "Unfortunately, we are not compatible with a three channel programmer, so you can not replace that device with our Extension Kit" and advised me to return the wireless stat and put in two wired stats and use the existing controller set to constant for the heating circuits. This is not ideal due to the location of the wiring for the downstairs stat.

From what I had read here, I thought that I could install the wireless thermostat for the downstairs circuit and the wired one for upstairs and was prepared to pull apart and rewire from the wiring centre if necessary. Can anyone tell me if Tado's response is my only option or if I can wire it up the way I want it.

Thanks in advance

deezell wrote: »

Sounds like it set up as full S plan, though Im curious about HW heating when only a ch zone is active. If all three zones have valves, will be independent, if HW has no valve or it's valve is latched/stuck open, HW will heat for any event. You've a bit of testing to do, it should operate exactly like the Horstman, but with the addition of the TRV zones.

So it looks like heating ran upstairs and downstairs overnight so I haven't broken anything. It does seem to be heating individual rads also which is good.

I still have hot water so far, even with the Hot water schedule turned off in the App, I am leaving it to see if the hot water runs out or not.

I noticed the 3 rads upstairs that had the pinhead stuck are heating whenever upstairs is on and those rooms are much warmer than required. Assuming a call to my plumber is needed to get them replaced.

A question, when I was installing the Drayton RadStats some seemed to screw hand tight whereas others screwed on but not as tight i.e. they kept spinning at a certain tightness (I used the 30mm adaptor that came in the box)- is that common or did I do something wrong?

Also if I remove a RadStat to re-tighten do you need to run the installation set-up for that stat again i.e. delete from app, remove batteries, reset-up from scratch in App or?

Lastly if I am getting my plumber back should I get him to look at the boiler wiring or is that a sparks job?

(Interestingly all this focus on the heating, boiler, and wiring has a vague recollection in the depths of my brain coming back to me that a service engineer commented one time that the boiler was not wired correctly).

Sounds like it set up as full S plan, though Im curious about HW heating when only a ch zone is active. If all three zones have valves, will be independent, if HW has no valve or it's valve is latched/stuck open, HW will heat for any event. You've a bit of testing to do, it should operate exactly likethe Horstman, but with the addition of the TRV zones.

deezell wrote: »

The CH1 and CH2 outputs are paired to the wall stats, but also to the TRVs. Any TRVs you pair to an output will open the corresponding valve, so don't pair a TRV on an upstairs rad with the downstairs CH1 output. Unless you have a full TRV setup in a zone, other rads in the zone will only heat when a TRV calls the zone. Pairing the wall stat and locating it in a general area, hall/living downstairs, landing upstairs, will allow general control and accurate temperature for the zone, while TRVs in the zone will fine tune their rooms, or turn them off when not needed, e.g., spare bedrooms, or living room in the afternoon.

Reading ahead to your next post you say you have zone independence, but in this post you say HW always heats when any CH zone is on. This sounds like a gravity system, or the Horstman was switched to gravity mode. I checked, there is a switch or jumper at the back of the unit. See if it was set to gravity or pumped.

Yeah I had screwed up on the TRVs all assigned to CH1 as the default, have set the upstairs to CH2 and added both room stats now also assigned to the appropriate CH.

Checked the back of the Horstmann and its set to pumped.

eddiem74 wrote: »

I wired per your suggestion above and ran the App set-up. Upon completion Hot Water was all that was visible in the App.

I then proceeded to swap out all the radiator values with the Drayton ones. 3 radiators had those little pinheads that would not move even after WD40 so still installed the new values for the moment.

At this point I had done nothing else and had not installed the 2 room stats I had gotten, was unsure with the radiator values if they were needed or not?

Per the default app schedule at 4PM it was to set rooms to 20degrees and i could see from the stats some rooms were at 17degrees. So I just waited and at 4PM the boiler kicked in and I can see on the App any rooms that are below 20degrees have a fire symbol.

I set hot water to off as typically when I run the heating / radiators in the winter the hot water heats as a result so I do not need to have hot water on, per the old wiring/timer. I assume still the same or?

The CH1 and CH2 outputs are paired to the wall stats, but also to the TRVs. Any TRVs you pair to an output will open the corresponding valve, so don't pair a TRV on an upstairs rad with the downstairs CH1 output. Unless you have a full TRV setup in a zone, other rads in the zone will only heat when a TRV calls the zone. Pairing the wall stat and locating it in a general area, hall/living downstairs, landing upstairs, will allow general control and accurate temperature for the zone, while TRVs in the zone will fine tune their rooms, or turn them off when not needed, e.g., spare bedrooms, or living room in the afternoon.

Reading ahead to your next post you say you have zone independence, but in this post you say HW always heats when any CH zone is on. This sounds like a gravity system, or the Horstman was switched to gravity mode. I checked, there is a switch or jumper at the back of the unit. See if it was set to gravity or pumped.

deezell wrote: »

Looking at this closer, there are two brown wires from the HW ON terminal 5 on the Horstman. If your system is a three zone valve S plan system, there would be no requirement for anything other than a single live to each zone valve, the zone valves' relays in combination firing the boiler and powering the circulation pump. There is a possibility that your system is wired without valve relays implemented, there's been a rash of these in recent posts. In such a system a single timer or a HW zone operating in gravity mode fires the boiler for all zone events. I'll take a look and see if your Horstman has a gravity mode switch and get back to you.

So although the boiler fired per my previous post it seems only downstairs heating is on and the values even without the fire symbol are on.

I have a Vokera Mynute 28e boiler, with the Horstmann programmer I could turn on downstairs heating, Upstairs Heating or Hot Water all separately which made me assume I am 3 Zone. This was installed back in 2003.

deezell wrote: »

The supply Live to L appears to be looped to 2, 4, and 6, and from 6 out the back of the baseplate. Perhaps the installer thought these were COM terminals for the 3 relays, rather than as on the diagram where COM is internally wired in the unit from L, and 2,4 and 6 are NC terminals for each relay.
It may be the case that a different unit was on the same baseplate previously, and had this requirement. Physical baseplates are semi standardised, but individual manufacturers use of the pins is not. What is clear is that there is no switching involved, as all 3 terminals are held live. So all you need to do is make sure that the brown wire from 6 that goes out the back of the plate is connected to Live on the Drayton plate, all the others have no function.
So your wiring instructions are;
Change the basplates, terminals 1, 3 and 5 of the Horstmann to terminals 1, 3 and 2 of the Drayton, and external wire to 6 on the Horstman to L on the Drayton. Live and Neutrals on the Horstman to the L and N on the Drayton, discard any loops.

I wired per your suggestion above and ran the App set-up. Upon completion Hot Water was all that was visible in the App.

I then proceeded to swap out all the radiator values with the Drayton ones. 3 radiators had those little pinheads that would not move even after WD40 so still installed the new values for the moment.

At this point I had done nothing else and had not installed the 2 room stats I had gotten, was unsure with the radiator values if they were needed or not?

Per the default app schedule at 4PM it was to set rooms to 20degrees and i could see from the stats some rooms were at 17degrees. So I just waited and at 4PM the boiler kicked in and I can see on the App any rooms that are below 20degrees have a fire symbol.

I set hot water to off as typically when I run the heating / radiators in the winter the hot water heats as a result so I do not need to have hot water on, per the old wiring/timer. I assume still the same or?

Looking at this closer, there are two brown wires from the HW ON terminal 5 on the Horstman. If your system is a three zone valve S plan system, there would be no requirement for anything other than a single live to each zone valve, the zone valves' relays in combination firing the boiler and powering the circulation pump. There is a possibility that your system is wired without valve relays implemented, there's been a rash of these in recent posts. In such a system a single timer or a HW zone operating in gravity mode fires the boiler for all zone events. I'll take a look and see if your Horstman has a gravity mode switch and get back to you.

eddiem74 wrote: »

So removed the existing programmer and this is what is there in terms of wiring. It looks like there are wires looping between the off positions if I am reading everything correctly. Does this look normal before I proceed further?

The supply Live to L appears to be looped to 2, 4, and 6, and from 6 out the back of the baseplate. Perhaps the installer thought these were COM terminals for the 3 relays, rather than as on the diagram where COM is internally wired in the unit from L, and 2,4 and 6 are NC terminals for each relay.
It may be the case that a different unit was on the same baseplate previously, and had this requirement. Physical baseplates are semi standardised, but individual manufacturers use of the pins is not. What is clear is that there is no switching involved, as all 3 terminals are held live. So all you need to do is make sure that the brown wire from 6 that goes out the back of the plate is connected to Live on the Drayton plate, all the others have no function.
So your wiring instructions are;
Change the basplates, terminals 1, 3 and 5 of the Horstmann to terminals 1, 3 and 2 of the Drayton, and external wire to 6 on the Horstman to L on the Drayton. Live and Neutrals on the Horstman to the L and N on the Drayton, discard any loops.

deezell wrote: »

Yep. Straight swap. Change the basplates, terminals 1, 3 and 5 of the Horstmann to terminals 1, 3 and 2 of the Drayton

So removed the existing programmer and this is what is there in terms of wiring. It looks like there are wires looping between the off positions if I am reading everything correctly. Does this look normal before I proceed further?

Type 901

deezell wrote: »

At least its just wiring, actual plumbing is done.

Cheers for all the advice on this! Got it all sorted today after getting my head around the wiring diagrams in relation to current setup. Looking back my questions were daft

Removed all the messy terminal strips across the two locations and put in a basic 10 terminal honeywell junction box. Alot cleaner now in the hotpress! Thankfully valve relays were all working and only had to use two of the unused wires to bring the SL from relays and allow for HW NO wire.

when i have them in ill be on to you for wiring .

John mac wrote: »

future proof , gona swap out the ball valve i have with a motorised valve in the summer , (although i have been saying that for 16 years ) ..

Ah, ball valve on the CH. Get a pair, ( m valves, not balls), and then you'll have a proper S plan.

future proof , gona swap out the ball valve i have with a motorised valve in the summer , (although i have been saying that for 16 years ) ..

John mac wrote: »

Smashing thanks .

Why did you buy two channel if yòu only have a single zone.

eddiem74 wrote: »

Interesting post above, same question for me. Will the drayton valve fit?

Yes. can confirm they do .
i have just replaced 2 of my Terrier trvs with the Drayton

Smashing thanks .

John mac wrote: »

my system is a simple one , power in and power out to fire the boiler .
i have the two channel version , so what i need to know is
what terminal do i use to send power to the boiler ?

_______________________________
think i may have it /

like this ?

or do i wire it as the single channel

Single Switched Live from terminal 4 to the boiler. Power (L and N) to the Drayton from the same supply as the static power to the boiler, if the boiler requires a permanent live. Some older and outhouse boilers just take a N and a swiched L to operate.

eddiem74 wrote: »

Interesting post above, same question for me. Will the drayton valve fit?

Also when removing the old valve is there any servicing that should be done? I vaguely recall my plumber saying to check the pin the valve sits on, perhaps some WD40 and some pushing in/out with a plyers? I might be dreaming though...:o

Once the TRV head uses a standard M30 thread on the knurled hand nut that connects it to the body, then any of the modern smart TRVs will fit. Tado comes with accessories for odd and less common valve bodies, that require clamps or pin extenders, I'm sure Drayton do similar.
Your plumber gave good advice, but don't grip the pin with a pliers lest you bend or score it. Just press with your thumb, use a little piece of wood or plastic if your thumb skin is not aged and leathery, (like my battered digits).

my system is a simple one , power in and power out to fire the boiler .
i have the two channel version , so what i need to know is
what terminal do i use to send power to the boiler ?

_______________________________
think i may have it /

like this ?

or do i wire it as the single channel

Interesting post above, same question for me. Will the drayton valve fit?

Also when removing the old valve is there any servicing that should be done? I vaguely recall my plumber saying to check the pin the valve sits on, perhaps some WD40 and some pushing in/out with a plyers? I might be dreaming though...

masterboy123

I am very happy with Drayton Wiser heating system. I am wondering if Drayton's digital radiator valve could fit in my current rads? I am attaching a picture, please let me only thoughts.

Redlim

deezell wrote: »

Check out the previous discussion with RayTaxi, his situation is identical, 3 zone valves, but a single old timer firing the boiler, the zone valves controlled by stats but the valves themselves not connected to fire the boiler when called, in a proper S plan setup. If you keep the valves, and seperate the operation of the HW valve from the CH valves, you can have independent HW only in the summer. HW valve can be operated by a cylinder stat, in combination with the currently unused HW timer terminal of the ext kit. The CH terminal of the kit can be used to open both the CH valves, but to achieve independent firing of the boiler, the valve relays will have to be wired in S plan to fire it, no direct connection from the ext kit. This way when no TRVs are calling for heat, all rads will be closed, and a call for HW will only open the HW valve.

Great stuff, thanks again for all your help deezell. The amount of advice you give to people on here is unbelievable. I promise I'll leave you in peace now!

Check out the previous discussion with RayTaxi, his situation is identical, 3 zone valves, but a single old timer firing the boiler, the zone valves controlled by stats but the valves themselves not connected to fire the boiler when called, in a proper S plan setup. If you keep the valves, and seperate the operation of the HW valve from the CH valves, you can have independent HW only in the summer. HW valve can be operated by a cylinder stat, in combination with the currently unused HW timer terminal of the ext kit. The CH terminal of the kit can be used to open both the CH valves, but to achieve independent firing of the boiler, the valve relays will have to be wired in S plan to fire it, no direct connection from the ext kit. This way when no TRVs are calling for heat, all rads will be closed, and a call for HW will only open the HW valve.

Redlim

deezell wrote: »

You can latch the valves open to convert everywhere to a single zone. It this case the old stats can be left full on or removed.
What's currently firing the boiler, the ext kit? I'd use its CH on as live to fire the boiler on behalf of the TRVs, but also use its HW contacts to open and close the HW valve. You'd then need to wire the HW valve relay (currently unused) to fire the boiler to get HW only operation when all the rads (bar two) are closed. If you don't want these two to heat during a HW only timed event, connect the CH on from the ext kit to both CH valves, then no radiators will heat during a HW only call, and only the active TRV rads plus the open two rads will heat during any CH event. If you continue to use the two CH valves, turn old stats up full or short their wires to maintain a connection of CH ON live from the ext kit, which formerly was supplied by the output of the old single timer.

Thanks deezell, that's really helpful. To answer your question, the wireless receiver from the starter kit is firing the boiler now whenever a TRV or the wireless temperature sensor calls for heat.

I've attached a picture of the wiring:
N = 3 * neutral
L = 1 live plus purple bridging wire to CH COM
CH No = 2 * live out
Plus earth wire attached to plate in behind the receiver
No remaining wires left unattached

If I understand it correctly I need to add a stat to the HW cylinder, link it to the motorised valve and bring down a wire to this wireless receiver?

In relation to fully isolating the CH from HW - I could be wrong but I don't think I have the required wiring from the stats to do this and it may be more trouble than it's worth to fix it. During the summer I can switch off the 2 remaining manual rads. Or is there a better alternative?

You can latch the valves open to convert everywhere to a single zone. It this case the old stats can be left full on or removed.
What's currently firing the boiler, the ext kit? I'd use its CH on as live to fire the boiler on behalf of the TRVs, but also use its HW contacts to open and close the HW valve. You'd then need to wire the HW valve relay (currently unused) to fire the boiler to get HW only operation when all the rads (bar two) are closed. If you don't want these two to heat during a HW only timed event, connect the CH on from the ext kit to both CH valves, then no radiators will heat during a HW only call, and only the active TRV rads plus the open two rads will heat during any CH event. If you continue to use the two CH valves, turn old stats up full or short their wires to maintain a connection of CH ON live from the ext kit, which formerly was supplied by the output of the old single timer.

Redlim

Apologies in advance for the long spiel, just trying to give as much background as possible for my question. Recently installed the new version of the Tado wireless starter kit. Also added their smart TRVs to all but 2 of the 14 rads which seems to be working perfect so far.

I don't have hot water control yet as I didn't have the wiring for it in my previous set up either - will try to get this sorted before the spring/summer when the rads will be switched off. It's not an issue at the moment as I'm happy for the HW cylinder to receive heat whenever the upstairs rads call for heat.

My previous set up was essentially 2 zones with 3 motorised valves and a very basic "apt" branded rotary timer. The zones are a) downstairs rads controlled by a wall stat and b) upstairs rads plus HW cylinder combined. For upstairs there's 2 motorised valves, 1 for the rads manifold and the other for the HW cylinder but both are wired together to the wall stat on the landing - hence the lack of HW control currently. Neither of the old wall stats had/have the ability to call for heat, they were set up to simply open and close.

What I'm trying to figure out is if there's any benefit at all in trying to keep these old zones now that I have the Tado TRVs on most of my rads. I don't have any wired Tado stats, just the wireless temperature sensor that came with the new starter kit so I'm thinking I should just remove the valves and the old wall stats. Does this make sense or am I missing something obvious?