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Mayo GAA Discussion - Part 4

Hulk Hands

The comparison was silly. Walsh could be argued as the worst of those three and Mayo sacrificed their best player on Saturday to follow him everywhere. If Walsh jumped into the first row of concrete benches around the edge, Keegan would've hopped in beside him. Hardly conductive to getting easy space and ball

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Blackjack

kilns wrote: »

Can someone not ask a geniune question with out being shot down and people being so touchy about it

The problem is that somehow many of his detractors (usually from a particular county with a huge population) seem to think that scores from frees don’t count as much, or are easy or something. Anytime anyone mentions Cillian’s scoring records all you get is “how many from frees, how many from the left, how many from the right, how many this that or the other” as if somehow a 13 yard free is worth less on the scoreboard than a shot taken to draw a game from the 45.
The stats are there for anyone to see, the records are there for anyone to see. his record score in a championship game last Sunday (where he out scored the entire Tipp team while he was on the pitch) is met with “soft goals, poor opposition blah blah blah”.

He’s an outstanding player, the records he holds should be enough for anyone to see that. However there’s a large vocal cohort of idiots, some former players themselves, who won’t see it because they don’t like him. Fair enough if people don’t like him but it would be refreshing to see if the same detractors at least have the intelligence and good grace not to be blindsided by hatred to see how good a player he is.

The intelligence seems to be the biggest factor missing in those that continually express negative views of him though.

Green&Red

kilns wrote: »

Can someone not ask a geniune question with out being shot down and people being so touchy about it

I’ve just pointed out that it wasn’t genuine though

You’re not “WE” are you?

So why use that pronoun if it’s not to troll?

WE have enough trolls in here to be able to spot them a mile off

Green&Red

yop wrote: »

And Keegan has outscored Connolly yet he is the bestestest ever.
Good to see a new reg today to tell us those stats.
Wonder who has re-reg'd

It couldn’t possibly be a re-reg Yop

The week before an All-Ireland the amount of trolls circling to pick at your bloody carcass is hilarious. Don’t worry lads there’ll be enough bottlers, not a marquee forward, cheater insulted to go around

Speaking of which, I see the Shinner spokesman on sport was out earlier this week

https://twitter.com/chrisandrews64/status/1335638130481901568?s=21

Hopefully Rose Conway’s voters remember this

kilns

Green&Red wrote: »

Was it a genuine question though?

Because you say “ it remains to be seen if WE have enough to trouble Dublin”

By its not WE is it, you’re a dub as far as I can see, certainly not from Mayo, so it’s just more trolling, what’s new ?

Can someone not ask a geniune question with out being shot down and people being so touchy about it

spakman

muddle84 wrote: »

Thats the worry isn't it?

A worry that he's not going to do a major reshuffle for the final?
No - it would be far more worrying if he did.

muddle84

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

no

Thats the worry isn't it?

[Deleted User]

BandMember wrote: »

That's an interesting theory and one I wouldn't completely rule out. However, there are two things that I would wonder about it:

1. Would Coen have the pace to match him? Wouldn't argue that he could compete with him in all other areas in order to do an excellent nullifying job, but this might be a worry. Mobility, yes. Pace, I'm not so sure. For the record, I'm a fan of this guy - ultimate team player and completely underrated. You don't get to be the captain of multiple All-Ireland winning teams by not having something about you....

2. If this did happen, that would necessitate moving Coen from CB to MF, moving one of the lads from MF to the half forward line and then another move one of the lads selected there. That's a lot of musical chairs.....and that's before you even ask the question who plays CHB instead of Coen/who moves back to the defence and where they would fit in.... I suppose the obvious answer is that Kevin McLoughlin moves back, but to CHB? Who would his match up be? I'd imagine that Keegan will go against Kilkenny wherever he goes, so would probably start at CHB.

Given Horan's well established refusal in the past to change his team/style of play to match the opposition (a la Rochford) as he allegedly sees it as a sign of weakness, do we really think that he's going to do a major reshuffle of a winning team all of a sudden for an All-Ireland Final?? I have my doubts...

...........is a question that you would never ask about Dean Rock on any of the Dubs forums...... :rolleyes:

BandMember

Green&Red wrote: »

Ah Ref reckons Coen could be put on Fenton, not the worst idea, great engine, can completely sacrifice his own game to neutralise one of their best players

That's an interesting theory and one I wouldn't completely rule out. However, there are two things that I would wonder about it:

1. Would Coen have the pace to match him? Wouldn't argue that he could compete with him in all other areas in order to do an excellent nullifying job, but this might be a worry. Mobility, yes. Pace, I'm not so sure. For the record, I'm a fan of this guy - ultimate team player and completely underrated. You don't get to be the captain of multiple All-Ireland winning teams by not having something about you....

2. If this did happen, that would necessitate moving Coen from CB to MF, moving one of the lads from MF to the half forward line and then another move one of the lads selected there. That's a lot of musical chairs.....and that's before you even ask the question who plays CHB instead of Coen/who moves back to the defence and where they would fit in.... I suppose the obvious answer is that Kevin McLoughlin moves back, but to CHB? Who would his match up be? I'd imagine that Keegan will go against Kilkenny wherever he goes, so would probably start at CHB.

Given Horan's well established refusal in the past to change his team/style of play to match the opposition (a la Rochford) as he allegedly sees it as a sign of weakness, do we really think that he's going to do a major reshuffle of a winning team all of a sudden for an All-Ireland Final?? I have my doubts...

kilns wrote: »

Out of interest how many are from dead balls?

...........is a question that you would never ask about Dean Rock on any of the Dubs forums...... :rolleyes:

yop

RedDevil55 wrote: »

Yes but 1-2 of Fenton's scores against mayo came last year and the replay in 2015. They were both hammerings so the scores don't count. At least that's the logic I hear with Cillian.

And Keegan has outscored Connolly yet he is the bestestest ever.
Good to see a new reg today to tell us those stats.
Wonder who has re-reg'd

RedDevil55

dockysher wrote: »

coen isnt a third of the player fenton is, people are delusional if they think coen can stop fenton

Jack Barry has kept Fenton quiet in several games. That's the job we need someone to do.

RedDevil55

BenThornley wrote: »

From play, just for clarity and to those wondering.

2012: 0-1
2013: 0-0
2015 Drawn Game: 0-0
2015 Replay: 1-1
2016 Drawn Game: 0-2
2016 Replay: 0-0
2017: 0-3
2019: 0-1

So in 1-8 from play across eight games. Three times held scoreless and averages out at a point per game from play with a goal coming one in every eight games. Take nothing away from his free-taking but the greats do it from play against the very best. COC is an elite free-taker, one of the best forwards to ever play Gaelic football? I’m not so sure.

In contrast, David Clifford scored 0-6 from play between drawn game and replay alone last year v the Dubs. Brian Fenton a midfielder has scored 1-5 in six games against Mayo for a very similar record which is telling in itself.

Yes but 1-2 of Fenton's scores against mayo came last year and the replay in 2015. They were both hammerings so the scores don't count. At least that's the logic I hear with Cillian.

PARlance

I woke up this morning and I started to BELIEVE!

yop

Green&Red wrote: »

COC V Dublin
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that’s close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he’ll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I’m surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Unfortunately you will still have those simpletons who will still argue against that.
Even the Dubs glorify a free taker, but yet when Its COC its a different reaction, sad isn't it.

https://www.wearedublin.com/football/rocks-free-kick-statistics-show-his-importance-to-dublin/

Coen on Fenton could be interesting. He has the physical attributes to handle him and he is a quality but yet not glorified player.

Horan usually pulls some rabbit out of the hat.

muddle84

dockysher wrote: »

coen isnt a third of the player fenton is, people are delusional if they think coen can stop fenton

There is nobody in the country close to Fenton in terms of what he does for Dublin and how good he is. That's not the point, he doesn't have to be a third of the footballer. He is everybit the athlete that Fenton is. Sure Fenton might catch it over his head but is he going to be as effective when Coen is tackling him and following him the full length of the field.

Coen's best games are when he is given a specific role like this. He tends to get a bit lost when running up the field. When he gets into the other half he usually looks to off load. I think this is why he is underrated so much.

muddle84

Green&Red wrote: »

COC V Dublin
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that’s close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he’ll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I’m surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

He is not a marquee forward end of.....? He has now overtaken Matt Connors record for average scores from play in championship now.

But he doesn't score from the sideline on the outside of the boot, so he can't be a marquee forward......right?

Green&Red

kilns wrote: »

It was a geniune question

Alot of respect for COC, he is a great finisher and is probably the difference between Mayo being a middle of the road team and a real contender, he has that nasty streak too which is no harm too

Maybe I havent watched him as closely but whenever he has played Dublin, I dont ever remember him being one of Mayos top performers, when as I said he is the X factor player who elevates them above the norm. For me personally Dublin seem to be able to cope with him in open play as he lacks that bit of pace which would scare a defender but who knows he could rip it up next Sunday

Was it a genuine question though?

Because you say “ it remains to be seen if WE have enough to trouble Dublin”

By its not WE is it, you’re a dub as far as I can see, certainly not from Mayo, so it’s just more trolling, what’s new ?

Loafing Oaf

While we're on the subject, just to mention that COC jointly held the previous highest score in a game record himself with 3-9 against Limerick in 2018. But both tallies overshadowed by the 6-12 he notched in a U-12 game for Ballintubber back in the day:P
https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/gaa/gaelic-football/gaelic-football-news/how-cillian-oconnors-4-9-23148460

kilns

It was a geniune question

Alot of respect for COC, he is a great finisher and is probably the difference between Mayo being a middle of the road team and a real contender, he has that nasty streak too which is no harm too

Maybe I havent watched him as closely but whenever he has played Dublin, I dont ever remember him being one of Mayos top performers, when as I said he is the X factor player who elevates them above the norm. For me personally Dublin seem to be able to cope with him in open play as he lacks that bit of pace which would scare a defender but who knows he could rip it up next Sunday

Green&Red

kilns wrote: »

Out of interest how many are from dead balls?

Sorry, I forgot they count less

It’s as tired a line as €50 doesn’t kick the ball over the bar

[Deleted User]

kilns wrote: »

Out of interest how many are from dead balls?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............

kilns

Green&Red wrote: »

COC V Dublin
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that’s close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he’ll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I’m surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Out of interest how many are from dead balls?

Blackjack

Green&Red wrote: »

COC V Dublin
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that’s close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he’ll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I’m surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

Of all the teams he’s played more than once his average is only higher against Tipp and Leitrim, and that’s only after this years games are included.
He’s scored more goals than anyone else in championship football.
His average per game is higher than anyone else in championship football.
He’s scored more in a single game than anyone else in championship football.
His average vs current and former champions when playing them is better also than his overall average, which puts paid to any narrative that he doesn’t do it against the “big teams”.

Green&Red

COC V Dublin
2012 - 0-7
2013 - 0-8
2015 - 1-9
2015 - 1-6
2016 - 0-7 (Including the kick on the buzzer to draw)
2016 - 0-9
2017 - 0-7
2019 - 0-3

This narrative that Cillian only does it against Sligo and Leitrim is a joke, that’s close to an 8 point average, by Sunday he’ll have played 15% of his games against Dublin.
Even I’m surprised to see that his average score versus Dublin (7.75) is higher than his championship scoring average versus the remaining counties (7.12)

kilns

dockysher wrote: »

coen isnt a third of the player fenton is, people are delusional if they think coen can stop fenton

To be fair he doesn't have to be half the player all they want is to stop him and players with less talent than Coen have been great spoilers in the past

Having said that unless Mayo repeat than goal haul they did against Tipp I can't see them laying a glove on Dublin and while COC can perform against weaker teams it remains to be seen if we have enough to trouble Dublin, I don't think he has . Mayo of old seemed to raise their game even above their own abilities against Dublin, hopeful they can do that again and give us a great final

PARlance

Green&Red wrote: »

This is the issue with Coen

Lads that don’t have a clue about football underestimate him. Captain of minor, U-21 and Sigerson winning teams. That Sigerson team had Jimmy Feehan, Jack Barry, Conor McCarthy and Con O’Callaghan on it

Not half the player Fenton is but he’s such an effective man when given a job. He’s well capable of nullifying Fenton

Extremely underrated player, none more so than in Mayo imo. I wouldn't be surprised to see him on Fenton and Aidan playing very deep for a chunk of the game.

Green&Red

dockysher wrote: »

coen isnt a third of the player fenton is, people are delusional if they think coen can stop fenton

This is the issue with Coen

Lads that don’t have a clue about football underestimate him. Captain of minor, U-21 and Sigerson winning teams. That Sigerson team had Jimmy Feehan, Jack Barry, Conor McCarthy and Con O’Callaghan on it

Not half the player Fenton is but he’s such an effective man when given a job. He’s well capable of nullifying Fenton

dockysher

coen isnt a third of the player fenton is, people are delusional if they think coen can stop fenton

charlie14

Green&Red wrote: »

Ah Ref reckons Coen could be put on Fenton, not the worst idea, great engine, can completely sacrifice his own game to neutralise one of their best players

Could be an idea, and if he neutralised Fenton it would be a sacrifice well with making. If you can neutralise Fenton and Kilkenny I reckon you would go a long way to beating Dublin.
What height is Coen ? Far as I know Fenton is 6ft 6 inches.

Green&Red

charlie14 wrote: »

Mayo are going to need somebody with height in the middle, not just to compete on high ball, but to track Fenton in particular imo.
O`Shea was more or less thrown in green in the past against Dublin.
He has a bit more experience under his belt now to know it`s not just all about just fielding. If he is to start at full forward, I would be surprised if Horan isn`t working on him breaking ball for some of those other nippy forwards of Mayo`s

Ah Ref reckons Coen could be put on Fenton, not the worst idea, great engine, can completely sacrifice his own game to neutralise one of their best players

charlie14

Squatman wrote: »

thats where jordan flynn would be beneficial, or, old man parsons.
im not sure if Aiden O'shea ever created havoc in the dublin back line. My memory is he was always kept in phillys back pocket? open to correction?

Mayo are going to need somebody with height in the middle, not just to compete on high ball, but to track Fenton in particular imo.
O`Shea was more or less thrown in green in the past against Dublin.
He has a bit more experience under his belt now to know it`s not just all about just fielding. If he is to start at full forward, I would be surprised if Horan isn`t working on him breaking ball for some of those other nippy forwards of Mayo`s