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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Well Francie have it your way. No organisations in ni were sectarian, they just carried out sectarian crimes. You couldn’t make it up.
And you can stop accusing the ni state as being sectarian as well. They just done sectarian stuff. This is mad.

. And we have two SF MPs in the last week who have refused to condemn sectarian murders when asked directly. Listening to you I now understand why - it’s obviously very important to your mental health to never admit the ira were sectarian

jh79 set out his criteria, which is what I was addressing. You cannot call the IRA sectarian even using his metric. Unless he can prove members were ordered to kill people because they were protestant.

MY metric for deciding is to look at 'primary targets' as you know.

YOUR metric is to depend on anecdote and to hold on to the 'evidence/data' you say you have because you are afraid one poster might not accept it.

[Deleted User]

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So...I have no evidence in the case of FG...therefore I cannot call FG as an organisation - corrupt.

I'll let you work out the next bit yourself.

Well it's better than they didn't kill enough of them to be truly sectarian i suppose.

If there is a Truth process and the IRA say they ordered these killings would you consider them sectarian then?

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

Could you also describe the British security forces as a 'sectarian murder gang' ?

downcow I'd say you are a tan, can you answer the question

Mod: Banned

Junkyard Tom

jh79 wrote: »

Well it's better than they didn't kill enough of them to be truly sectarian i suppose.

If there is a Truth process and the IRA say they ordered these killings would you consider them sectarian then?

The PIRA killed a lot of Catholics too and had Protestant members in their ranks. Describing the PIRA as sectarian is like designating the ANC racist because its members were majority black, that is to say it would be bad logic, or, in more colloquial terms, 'utter bollocks'.

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The PIRA killed a lot of Catholics too and had Protestant members in their ranks. Describing the PIRA as sectarian is like designating the ANC racist because its members were majority black, that is to say it would be bad logic, or, in more colloquial terms, 'utter bollocks'.

So the IRA never carried out a sectarian attack? Francie claim is we don't know if they were sanctioned. That has logic to it even if it is not believable.

Yours is baffling. Are you saying that Protestants were the enemy not the British state and what else would Catholics in the IRA be doing?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The PIRA killed a lot of Catholics too and had Protestant members in their ranks. Describing the PIRA as sectarian is like designating the ANC racist because its members were majority black, that is to say it would be bad logic, or, in more colloquial terms, 'utter bollocks'.

Tom this is actually enlightening for me. Having lived all my life in Northern Ireland, I have never really encountered such bigotry and prejudice.

You are trying to tell us that because the IRA killed Catholics they are not sectarian?
Could you tell me when the IRA stopped a minibus, got everyone out, and ask them to identify their religion. Then tell the Protestants to run along while the set about murdering Catholics?
Could you tell me when the IRA drove past dozens of Protestant hotels to get to a catholic one and then plant firebombs which would burn 12 Catholics to death and delivered life-threatening injuries to many more?

Much of what Francie writes is nothing short of absurd, blinkered and prejudiced - but Tom you take the biscuit. You actually make Francie look like a well rounded individual

Junkyard Tom

The Provos did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in the North and they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Provos did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in the North and they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

Tom. You are so deluded

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Tom. You are so deluded

___________________________________________________________

Rachel Kowalsaki argues that the IRA did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in Northern Ireland and that they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

Kowalski, Rachel Caroline. "The role of sectarianism in the Provisional IRA campaign, 1969–1997." Terrorism and political violence 30, no. 4 (2018): 658-683.
___________________________________________________________

Maybe you should send Mrs Kowalski a strongly worded email DC? Because, I mean, she has put her name and academic reputation on the line to write the above. A quick google and you'll find how to contact her, let us know how you get on.

[Deleted User]

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Provos did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in the North and they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

But that only means they were less sectarian.

How many times are they allowed a free pass and not get the label?

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

___________________________________________________________

Rachel Kowalsaki argues that the IRA did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in Northern Ireland and that they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

Kowalski, Rachel Caroline. "The role of sectarianism in the Provisional IRA campaign, 1969–1997." Terrorism and political violence 30, no. 4 (2018): 658-683.
___________________________________________________________

Maybe you should send Mrs Kowalski a strongly worded email DC? Because, I mean, she has put her name and academic reputation on the line to write the above. A quick google and you'll find how to contact her, let us know how you get on.

I might just do that. She’s not your cousin is she.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I might just do that.

Don't forget to tell her you think she's 'deluded'.

She’s not your cousin is she.

Nope. My surname is of Irish origin and is fairly common in the northwest.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Don't forget to tell her you think she's 'deluded'.

Nope. My surname is of Irish origin and is fairly common in the northwest.

email sent. we'll see if she has the balls for the zoom call I'v sug meegested

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

He

email sent. we'll see if she has the balls for the zoom call I'v sug meegested

Will you show her the 'evidence' you claim you have?

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The Provos did not generally engage in sectarian activities but instead targeted those they deemed responsible for British rule in the North and they generally only targeted members of the military and police and made efforts to avoid civilian deaths.

An admission by default.

If they did not generally engage in sectarian activities, that could mean that 40% of their activities were sectrarian.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

An admission by default.

If they did not generally engage in sectarian activities, that could mean that 40% of their activities were sectrarian.

When you empower one section of the community, let's call them 'blue people', at the expense of another section, let's call them 'red people', then it should come as no surprise that the nature of conflict, should it arise, will break down along blue/red lines.

This is stuff small children can cognitively process lads but it somehow stubbornly eludes some.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

then it should come as no surprise that the nature of conflict, should it arise, will break down along blue/red lines.
/quote]

That sounds like a nasty sectarian conflict you are describing. I can’t disagree with you

maccored

downcow wrote: »

He

email sent. we'll see if she has the balls for the zoom call I'v sug meegested

do let us know. she'll probably just ignore your ludicrous insinuations.

maccored

downcow wrote: »

That sounds like a nasty sectarian conflict you are describing. I can’t disagree with you

the IRA targeted the British government and those that worked with the british government in keeping the north as it was - as a sectarian loyalist stronghold.

It was the loyalists who used to attack catholics because of their religion (Ive enough experience of that myself to last a lifetime). I dont remember anyone as a catholic running around abusing and beating up protestants because of their religion.

You do understand what sectarian means, yes?

downcow

maccored wrote: »

the IRA targeted the British government and those that worked with the british government in keeping the north as it was - as a sectarian loyalist stronghold.

It was the loyalists who used to attack catholics because of their religion (Ive enough experience of that myself to last a lifetime). I dont remember anyone as a catholic running around abusing and beating up protestants because of their religion.

You do understand what sectarian means, yes?

You can’t be serious. You don’t remember any Catholics running around beating up Protestants.
If I was you I would seek some help for my memory loss

blanch152

maccored wrote: »

the IRA targeted the British government and those that worked with the british government in keeping the north as it was - as a sectarian loyalist stronghold.

It was the loyalists who used to attack catholics because of their religion (Ive enough experience of that myself to last a lifetime). I dont remember anyone as a catholic running around abusing and beating up protestants because of their religion.

You do understand what sectarian means, yes?

Nonsense, that is a revisionist fabrication. The IRA had two targets, primary target was anyone not of their own, the secondary target was their own, hence all the kneecapping, rape, sexual abuse and punishment beatings that they approved in their areas

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

It will be interesting to see which region of the uk gets the vaccine last. I don't know which one it will be, but it will just be interesting.

Just another wee update on your measure of failure/success.

First person in world to receive vaccine as rollout was a 90-year old northern Irish woman this morning in Coventry. The rollout also begins in Belfast rvh this morning.

I think we passed that test with flying colours!

FrancieBrady

In order to get a deal, (any kind of a deal will do at this stage for Boris, they appear to have thrown Brexit Unionists under the bus again.) Someone ring Edwin Poots and tell him to keep building that Irish Sea border infrastructure.

https://twitter.com/MarosSefcovic/status/1336298681188954113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1336298681188954113%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058099620page%3D130

Blanco100

FrancieBrady wrote: »

In order to get a deal, (any kind of a deal will do at this stage for Boris, they appear to have thrown Brexit Unionists under the bus again.) Someone ring Edwin Poots and tell him to keep building that Irish Sea border infrastructure.

https://twitter.com/MarosSefcovic/status/1336298681188954113?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1336298681188954113%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058099620page%3D130

Its actually gas. So desperate to be part of the British gang, and they are not even wanted.

Remember all the whooping and hollering when Boris showed up at the DUP party convention waving his union Jack for them. For 20 minutes he made them feel as British as they have ever felt in their lives.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Just another wee update on your measure of failure/success.

First person in world to receive vaccine as rollout was a 90-year old northern Irish woman this morning in Coventry. The rollout also begins in Belfast rvh this morning.

I think we passed that test with flying colours!

Good news for our four great nations-the silence from the usual suspects is deafening!

FrancieBrady

Blanco100 wrote: »

Its actually gas. So desperate to be part of the British gang, and they are not even wanted.

Remember all the whooping and hollering when Boris showed up at the DUP party convention waving his union Jack for them. For 20 minutes he made them feel as British as they have ever felt in their lives.

Boris was telling them there'd be no sea border in Belfast while Edwin Poots was actually overseeing the building of the infrastructure for one.

Will they now admit NI has been a failure for them? I doubt it.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Good news for our four great nations-the silence from the usual suspects is deafening!

I already said it is great to see ROb. Hope I'm not one of the usual suspects? I never played the macabre competitive game blanch and downcow etc wanted to play with this tragedy for everyone on the island regardless of their politics.

pixelburp

This conversation has become pretty fatuous & infantile if somehow "... who got the vaccine first" becomes some kind of point of pride to crow about, or indeed rub in the face of those yet to apply their own strategy. There's a long, painful road ahead regardless of what vaccine is chosen or how it's implemented; and the success or failure of NI is not contingent on it being the first in the UK to get a vaccine for a pandemic that has stripped the world raw (beyond the presumption it being the smallest state means it's the most obvious test case). There's plenty of ammunition on both sides from the years leading up to 2020.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Good news for our four great nations-the silence from the usual suspects is deafening!

I was delighted to hear it was an Enniskillen woman, known to my family who was the first to get it, Rob. Who exactly has said anything negative about this?

We're all in it together with a pandemic. Reduced viral load in the UK benefits everyone.

Junkyard Tom

RobMc59 wrote: »

silence from the usual suspects is deafening!

I'm pleased for the people getting the vaccine particularly the NHS workers who've, let's not forget, lost colleagues to COVID19.

I'm bemused by the crowd of bluffers running Britain attempting to turn approval of the vaccine into a nationalistic triumph, especially when it exemplifies transnational cooperation.