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Why not pay the student nurses?!

political analyst

https://www.thejournal.ie/motion-to-pay-student-nurses-5287097-Dec2020/

The Solidarity-People Before Profit (PBP) motion was defeated by 77 votes to 72.

Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party all voted against the motion, while opposition parties and groups supported it.

The motion called for the immediate reinstatement of the payment of student nurses and midwives who are in placements during the Covid-19 pandemic, among other measures.

The Tánaiste responded: “The matter is being considered. A full review of student allowances is under way. It should be ready in September 2021.”

Morally, it's right to pay the student nurses, given the hard work they've done - and are still doing - during the pandemic.

So why did the government parties vote against the motion?

It's as if the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste are gluttons for punishment - they seem ignorant of the increasing likelihood of a far-left coalition forming a government after the next general election.

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weisses

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

*learning

I think Its 10-20% actual learning on a typical day if you are lucky. the rest of your time you are working hard.

ExMachina1000

weisses wrote: »

The fact you didn't see any nursing students there looking at you has probably to do with the fact they were busy working

*learning

thomasdylan

Sardonicat wrote: »

It's not books for the most part. Its exactly the same amount of practical hours they always had before the Bsc with a fulltime degree course on top. About double the workload of any other degree course.

I don't know about the double the workload comment. There's lots of degrees with less placements but higher academic demands.

ma003

thomasdylan wrote: »

Internship isn't the last year of the medical degree. You can leave Ireland after the 5 or 6 year medical degree and start medical training in the US or Canada without having done an intern year. Interns can prescribe and can do pretty much everything an SHO can so I'm not sure if they're quite the same as a student nurse.

Yeh this is true! You finish your medical degree once you're finished college. You are a doctor during your intern year and an employee of the hse so its not the same thing as a student nurse still in college.

Also as already mentioned placements as a medical student are learning experiences where as student nurses are actually working from year so should be paid.

[Deleted User]

Exceptional times. I think they should be paid. It's not like 17-year-olds choosing a degree could ever imagine they'd be thrown into the front line of a global pandemic.

weisses

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I was in the acute diagnostic ward in Tullamore last year. The consultant was asking me questions while examining me. There were 3 or 4 students also there watching him work and listening to his process of diagnosis. He would also ask them the odd question but focused on me.

I assume they weren't getting paid because they didn't do anything! Stood watching as they are training. It's just part of their education. It's not a job

The fact you didn't see any nursing students there looking at you has probably to do with the fact they were busy working

thomasdylan

khalessi wrote: »

Traditionally student nurses were paid when they trained in hospitals as they were working 40 hour weeks and doing night duty. This changed when the training became university based. They should be paid for their year on the wards.

Medicine has been hospital based for years but the last year or first year on the was as an intern has always been paid.

It should be the same for student nurses.

They should also have been paid for working on the wards during the pandemic, as they were doing 30 hour weeks.

Internship isn't the last year of the medical degree. You can leave Ireland after the 5 or 6 year medical degree and start medical training in the US or Canada without having done an intern year. Interns can prescribe and can do pretty much everything an SHO can so I'm not sure if they're quite the same as a student nurse.

Galwayguy35

Wanderer78 wrote: »

just give people the money, its much faster and circulates quicker, the economy needs money fast, reducing taxes doesnt increase the money supply, borrowing does, its how we create more money, reducing taxes just increases the velocity of the money supply, even though this is also needed....

Typical far left statement.

Shake the mythical money tree and keep the taxes high.

LuasSimon

We can’t afford to pay the student nurses because there are so many bosses and long standing staff in the HSE earning 80/90/100k plus salaries with the cost of their pensions crippling the state .

weisses

Solutionking wrote: »

I mean that a nurse gets placed a far distance from home/college.

Very difficult to asses Students in college here are from all over Ireland ... My own situation is a 140 km roundtrip daily at least with the furthest possible placement 150 km away

Solutionking wrote: »

I hate to tell you but some people are spending thousands to get an educations.

Yes I am aware I spend thousands and that is before going on placement

Solutionking wrote: »

Plus I dont think you are telling the truth. I know lots of people who have gone trained, done more courses etc in the hSE. They always take into consideration location.

Why would I tell lies?? We were told there are hundreds of places to be allocated each and every time and they could not take into account peoples preferences. Which to me makes perfect sense

Solutionking wrote: »

Other personal circumstances are what? I dont like XYZ, hate to tell you no company does.

Uhh no .. Other circumstances could be a mature nursing student with 3 kids looking for a place closer to home for instance

ExMachina1000

thomasdylan wrote: »

Medical students aren't any practical help usually and shouldn't be paid. They're really just there for learning.

I was in the acute diagnostic ward in Tullamore last year. The consultant was asking me questions while examining me. There were 3 or 4 students also there watching him work and listening to his process of diagnosis. He would also ask them the odd question but focused on me.

I assume they weren't getting paid because they didn't do anything! Stood watching as they are training. It's just part of their education. It's not a job

Solutionking

weisses wrote: »

Roughly around 12 times during the first 3 years. You usually are on 2 placements per semester, sometimes these placements are in the same Hospital though

I mean that a nurse gets placed a far distance from home/college.

weisses wrote: »

Yes I was aware of not getting paid, The problem I have with this whole thing is that the allowances while on placement are not covering the cost so being on placement is potentially costing me money, which I think should be addressed. And they don't take into account where you live or any other personal circumstances when allocating placements.

I hate to tell you but some people are spending thousands to get an educations.

I know lots of people who have gone trained, done more courses etc in the hSE. They always take into consideration location.

Other personal circumstances are what? I dont like XYZ type stuff? hate to tell you no company does.

weisses

Solutionking wrote: »

How many times does this actually happen to any student nurse?

Roughly around 12 times during the first 3 years. You usually are on 2 placements per semester, sometimes these placements are in the same Hospital though

Solutionking wrote: »

When you signed up didn't they make you fully aware you don't get paid and placements could have to be far away but they would hope to place you as close as possible?

Yes I was aware of not getting paid, The problem I have with this whole thing is that the allowances while on placement are not covering the cost so being on placement is potentially costing me money, which I think should be addressed. And they don't take into account where you live or any other personal circumstances when allocating placements.

Gervais08

Sardonicat wrote: »

It's not books for the most part. Its exactly the same amount of practical hours they always had before the Bsc with a fulltime degree course on top. About double the workload of any other degree course.

Fair comment tbf. I never saw the logic in changing to be a degree course when it worked well.

I don’t know about here but I know in the UK it was a bad side effect of New Labour’s obsession with getting half the population into university - even creating nonsense courses.

Solutionking

What would nurses say if they got paid during training but they have to work in Ireland and HSE for at least 15 years after they are fully trained? to pay back for the investment?

Solutionking

weisses wrote: »

I have possible placement 3 hours away from where I live ....And placements are not known until 4 weeks before actually going there

How many times does this actually happen to any student nurse?

When you signed up didn't they make you fully aware you don't get paid and placements could have to be far away but they would hope to place you as close as possible?

Gervais08

weisses wrote: »

Once you start your internship in year 4 you should be paid close to what a nurse is getting..... mainly because you actually have your own patients assigned to you.

Completely agree.

Sardonicat

thomasdylan wrote: »

Medical students aren't any practical help usually and shouldn't be paid. They're really just there for learning.

Exactly. Its why we have intern Drs who are new graduates. This is when they start working, not while they are pursuing their degree.

weisses

Gervais08 wrote: »

No they’re not - they can leave to take up very lucrative positions wherever they want.

They pay 10-12k for Ireland to train them and can be off earning six figures tax free in the Middle East before the ink has dried on the certificate.

Sounds good doesn't it. Its the reward for 4 years of hard work.

thomasdylan

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

What would peoples thoughts be regarding whether student doctors should get paid also? You'd never really see a campaign for them, which is somewhat surprising.

Medical students aren't any practical help usually and shouldn't be paid. They're really just there for learning.

Sardonicat

Gervais08 wrote: »

I cannot fathom how this posit is still going on!

The biggest mistake happened was to create a phoney BSc in Nursing when the sensible option was what had gone on before; nurses were hired and worked their apprenticeship in a hospital; earned pay while getting experience.

Now it’s books for the most part and has turned out a lesser breed of nurses. “I didn’t sign up to a pandemic”

No one did you precious tart!!!!

It's not books for the most part. Its exactly the same amount of practical hours they always had before the Bsc with a fulltime degree course on top. About double the workload of any other degree course.

Sardonicat

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Do they pay for their education is the question I'm asking?

Well, if they qualify for fees to be paid they will be, if not they pay for them themselves. Likewise , if they qualify for a maintenance grant they will receive one, if not they won't. Like all other degree courses.

weisses

Gervais08 wrote: »

Okay, half books. Or they wouldn’t have got degree status for the placements etc.

I couldn't do it if it was mostly books

weisses

Caquas wrote: »

An interesting discussion with Katie Hannon.

Credit to Brid Smith for getting to the nub of the problem- the student nurses are used to fill staffing gaps because so many nurses are self-isolating.

The student nurse from UCD almost gave the game away when she said “”I didn’t sign up for a pandemic”. That’s what she hears in the hospital corridors.

http://rte.ie/r.html?rii=9_21876333_26960_05-12-2020

Once you start your internship in year 4 you should be paid close to what a nurse is getting..... mainly because you actually have your own patients assigned to you.

Gervais08

weisses wrote: »

Ohh its work ...Hard work, Its not books for the most part, That was what I responded to

Okay, half books. Or they wouldn’t have got degree status for the placements etc.

weisses

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Are they contracted to the hse for a period after becoming qualified?

No ..and why should they ?

Do other degree courses require you to stay here in Ireland once qualified ?

weisses

Gervais08 wrote: »

Still not work tho.

Ohh its work ...Hard work, Its not books for the most part, That was what I responded to

weisses

Solutionking wrote: »

What placements are so far away? because I have never once heard that.

I have possible placement 3 hours away from where I live ....And placements are not known until 4 weeks before actually going there

Gervais08

weisses wrote: »

Its not ...First 3 years its placement for half the time and year 4 is 36 weeks internship ... so in all its on the job training for the most part

Still not work tho.

weisses

Gervais08 wrote: »

Now it’s books for the most part and has turned out a lesser breed of nurses. “I didn’t sign up to a pandemic”

Its not ...First 3 years its placement for half the time and year 4 is 36 weeks internship ... so in all its on the job training for the most part