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AMD Navi Discussion

cherryghost

Embargo lifts tomorrow. Some leaked benchmarks look good. AMD heavily rumoured to discount the GPUs at launch, putting them at direct competition with the 2060S and 2070S, at which it seems to peg or better them.

Competition is great for consumers.

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Wonda-Boy

All my hopes are now pinned on the 6900XT launch.....if I fail at launch I am not ****ing doing it anymore until Feb or the like where I can just choose the card I want!!!!!

grogi

Rezident wrote: »

I got a box from amazon recently, it arrived in a taxi! And the taxi driver rang the bell, left it on the step and just drove away. This year is mental.

That is the Amazon delivery service.

Rezident

I think I got a 6800 yesterday on OCUK, they were on sale for about 5 minutes. 'order received - not yet shipped' so fingers crossed. Money gone from my Revolut so I am hopeful, as long as they did not oversell again.

Still won't believe it until I get the box. Or some delivery guy leaves it in my green bin or lying around outside the door again! Do they not require signatures anymore!? I'll have to camp on the doorstep the day it's due, I'm surprised the skangers haven't started following delivery vans and robbing doorsteps yet. I got a box from amazon recently, it arrived in a taxi! And the taxi driver rang the bell, left it on the step and just drove away. This year is mental.

Mucashinto

Wow, great post thanks.

Jesus, reading that article makes it look like intel is fooooked for the next while. Spending more money to produce inferior chips that they’ll have to sell at a lower cost surely...damn

Slutmonkey57b

Mucashinto wrote: »

Are there benefits gained automatically from doing this though (increasing the amount of transistors I guess)? When people say "moving to 7nm" etc sometimes it could be literally taking the existing design and doing the necessary work to transfer it and boom, you get double the capability but only spend a %age of the R&D you would starting fresh? Again, guessing this is why the thought is the gains used to be easier to achieve when sizes were rapidly coming down.

(Currently searching youtube for "how do computer chips work" :rolleyes:)

Generally speaking when you hear reports of a company like AMD "moving to 7nm" what they're talking about is moving an architecture (like Zen) rather than a specific processor design. So for Zen, they designed the initial architecture, then laid out specific chips for TSMC's "14nm" process. Then they did the Zen+ 2xxx series chips, which were small design improvements, moved to the 12nm process. The 3xxx chips were a significant set of improvements, designed from the start with the 7nm process in mind. So what AMD would have done is got the specs from TSMC of how each process is physically implemented, TSMC would have told them "for 14nm you can expect the silicon to have these characteristics, and this type of thing will be beneficial", which might mean that AMD would move some of the transistor blocks around, or change the way the electrical routings are done, or work out what their possible frequencies are. Then when they did "Zen+", they didn't necessarily make massive layout changes, but they might have been able to tweak the frequency, or run things at lower heat, etc. It's very much a hand-in-hand process. "Zen2" being on 7nm was an indication that AMD had a marketing plan worked out so that they would have Zen released Year 1, Zen+ release Year 2, and Zen2 released Year 3. They knew that Zen2 wouldn't be ready for Year 2, and they decided that the investment to tweak Zen and move it to a smaller process node would give enough of a performance jump to make it a worthwhile sell in Year 2.

This article by Semiaccurate is a good description of what chip companies do when they're planning things out, and what it means when they talk about "moving" an architecture. Basically, if you are designing a chip, once you've got over the initial high level design, you have to work out how to manufacture it, and it's at that stage you choose a foundry partner (TSMC) and a process technology (12nm, 7nm, 5nm) so that you can fully optimise your design. If a chip design itself is moving from one process to another it generally is an indicator that something's wrong with the process, or the company has been hanging on to a chip design too long. (e.g. Intel backporting from 10nm to 14nm is an admission of the fact that 10nm is ****, and their last 4-5 generations all getting "small tweak" versions of a "14nm" process indicates they're hanging on to a processer design too long, so intel is currently ****ed in both directions.)

Mucashinto

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

...This means that if amd design a chip, then choose to use samsung's 12nm process, it's a very big engineering job to start printing that same design on tsmc's 7nm. It can be done...

Are there benefits gained automatically from doing this though (increasing the amount of transistors I guess)? When people say "moving to 7nm" etc sometimes it could be literally taking the existing design and doing the necessary work to transfer it and boom, you get double the capability but only spend a %age of the R&D you would starting fresh? Again, guessing this is why the thought is the gains used to be easier to achieve when sizes were rapidly coming down.

(Currently searching youtube for "how do computer chips work" :rolleyes:)

Slutmonkey57b

Mucashinto wrote: »

Honestly I've never really known how this all works, just reading up a little now. Apparently Apple is now making their own chips, but they use TSMC as well as they are the only ones who have advanced 5nm capability but I'm wondering how much of an impact TSMC would have. Like would they have propriatary features/processes that would mean all 5nm chips are not the same and they actually develop the chip with Apple or they are literally just factories putting wires on boards to a customer's specification?

Also says TSMC are opening a plant in the US, I'm guessing for the Apple business. Can see why countries would start viewing this as a matter of national importance and want them closer to home, more likely wars will be fought over these resources in the future than land probably.

So as much money AMD/Nvidia make, it's still not enough to justify their own manufacturing capability and they're dependent on hiring out specialists. And in a perfect world it all works nicely anyway but there's a squeeze atm with TSMC being the one everyone wants?

So now the unthinkable has happened and I'm not able to get the GPU I want, when I want, at the price I want to pay :pac: :pac: :pac:

Tsmc print the transistor designs on the silicon wafers. Companies like apple, nvidia, or amd do the transistor design work. When they are towards the middle /end of that process they engage with companies like Tsmc to understand the process that will be used to print the designs physically. This will often lead to design tweaks to exploit the benefits / mitigate the bad points of the process. This means that if amd design a chip, then choose to use samsung's 12nm process, it's a very big engineering job to start printing that same design on tsmc's 7nm. It can be done, but often the cost and effort isn't worth it because there will anyway be a newer chip design coming along before the reengineering work could be done.

Current transistor printing processes are getting to the physical limits of technology. Intel and global foundries have both failed to make newer processes work (Intel is lying about it and gf have publicly given up). Samsung and Tsmc are the only companies who can make the latest chip technology work, and Tsmc are well ahead. So yes, it's all about the lack of supply and competition for Tsmc capacity.

Mucashinto

Honestly I've never really known how this all works, just reading up a little now. Apparently Apple is now making their own chips, but they use TSMC as well as they are the only ones who have advanced 5nm capability but I'm wondering how much of an impact TSMC would have. Like would they have propriatary features/processes that would mean all 5nm chips are not the same and they actually develop the chip with Apple or they are literally just factories putting wires on boards to a customer's specification?

Also says TSMC are opening a plant in the US, I'm guessing for the Apple business. Can see why countries would start viewing this as a matter of national importance and want them closer to home, more likely wars will be fought over these resources in the future than land probably.

So as much money AMD/Nvidia make, it's still not enough to justify their own manufacturing capability and they're dependent on hiring out specialists. And in a perfect world it all works nicely anyway but there's a squeeze atm with TSMC being the one everyone wants?

So now the unthinkable has happened and I'm not able to get the GPU I want, when I want, at the price I want to pay :pac: :pac: :pac:

BloodBath

It's not so much a gpu competition problem, it's a fab competition problem.

TSMC are kings of the castle and everybody want's their 7nm chips. There's not enough to go around.

Mucashinto

SeanW wrote: »

Interesting thing to note: supplies of even last gen AMD Radeon cards is now getting tight. On Scan you can't get any 5500XT to 5700XT cards, and on Overclockers you can only get one brand of 5700XT. Seems insane that AMD would "release" a new batch of graphics cards when they not only cannot supply any of those, but while allowing stocks of even their last gen stuff to run out. If you want a Radeon card from a reputable supplier, it looks like you're mostly limited to the the RX 500 series. What a joke.

Yeah, I really think this has a disastrous knock on effect to stock all the way through. People who who would be happy to buy an older card, preferably at a discount, end up chasing the same limited amount of new releases. The best thing about a new smartphone release for me is picking up the basically same older version at a nice cost reduction

.

The competition in the PC parts place...well it just means 2 makers doesn't it - AMD vs one other. This would be like if smartphones only had Samsung and Apple and Xiaomi/Huawei/One+ never came in and disrupted them. Until Chinese makers get into the PC space like they did there it's a fairly captive market for the manufacturers imo

Edit: Actually this probably doesn't translate, nvidia/amd are chipmakers and the phone manufacturers are dealing with the same small amount of those (ARM/Snapdragon?) so...*sigh* I just want to be able to buy a new GPU

Squidgy Black

SeanW wrote: »

Interesting thing to note: supplies of even last gen AMD Radeon cards is now getting tight. On Scan you can't get any 5500XT to 5700XT cards, and on Overclockers you can only get one brand of 5700XT. Seems insane that AMD would "release" a new batch of graphics cards when they not only cannot supply any of those, but while allowing stocks of even their last gen stuff to run out. If you want a Radeon card from a reputable supplier, it looks like you're mostly limited to the the RX 500 series. What a joke.

They've stopped production on the older series for quite a while now, couple of months. Same as Nvidia did with the 2070 super etc etc. No incentive to keep producing boards for the older cards when you're trying to ramp up production for the newer cards.

SeanW

Interesting thing to note: supplies of even last gen AMD Radeon cards is now getting tight. On Scan you can't get any 5500XT to 5700XT cards, and on Overclockers you can only get one brand of 5700XT. Seems insane that AMD would "release" a new batch of graphics cards when they not only cannot supply any of those, but while allowing stocks of even their last gen stuff to run out. If you want a Radeon card from a reputable supplier, it looks like you're mostly limited to the the RX 500 series. What a joke.

Rezident

Homelander wrote: »

Yeah I'm sure it'll be sorted. What a nightmare though.

Guess it's the brute force rx560 until next year....luckily though I am playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic at the moment, so not too demanding on the GPU front, but pain in the ass not being able to play 'proper' games over the next few weeks/Christmas.

I know! I don't think I am going to buy any new games at Christmas for the first time ever, because I can't buy a gpu. Crazy year.

Luckily there are loads of older games that are great and that I still haven't played, even though I did buy some of them a while ago.

grogi

Homelander wrote: »

Ah the 5500XT isn't that bad, isn't that basically an RX590? My RX560 can just about run Modern Warfare at 1080p low...

5500XT is more like 580 than 590. 590 would be 10% faster.

It's comical how much difference there is between 560 and 570 though.

Homelander

Ah the 5500XT isn't that bad, isn't that basically an RX590? My RX560 can just about run Modern Warfare at 1080p low...

Wizard!

Homelander wrote: »

...but pain in the ass not being able to play 'proper' games over the next few weeks/Christmas.

On the same page here...
Sold my 1080ti, I have a RX 5500XT for now, I can play some game, but not PUBG with my friends... I guess I have to spend more time with the family during XMas :rolleyes:

Homelander

Yeah I'm sure it'll be sorted. What a nightmare though.

Guess it's the brute force rx560 until next year....luckily though I am playing a lot of Deep Rock Galactic at the moment, so not too demanding on the GPU front, but pain in the ass not being able to play 'proper' games over the next few weeks/Christmas.

JoyPad

Homelander wrote: »

Well, still no card, have to say AMD are fairly useless as well thus far, so chargeback might be the only solution in the end.

AMD Support are very slow to answer the queries, but they do, eventually.

I placed an order on AMD website for a 3950X. I soon regretted the decision, and tried to cancel. But they do not offer this on the website. They say you should refuse the delivery, have it returned to them, and then they issue a refund.

Fastway driver left the parcel on a doorstep, not even mine. Neighbour came over and brought the box.

I am now in day 30 of trying to get the order refunded.

Hyzepher

Homelander wrote: »

I didn't realise they would be the courier, if I had I would not have used them.

They are unbelievable, they literally leave parcels on doorsteps all the time.

For all I know they left my RX6800 on my doorstep at 7am and it was stolen.

I mean what happens in that case, it says I signed for the ****ing thing, I'm sure AMD will look at it and go "you signed for it"...how are they supposed to know that's not my signature?

I would immediately put a formal query into the courier and put the onus on them to produce the signature. In my experience, 0% of "signed for" items are getting signatures, even if a real person accepted the item. Social distancing is causing this imo.

NO signature = no delivery. The courier would need to provide proof of delivery

Samuel T. Cogley

Homelander wrote: »

Well, still no card, have to say AMD are fairly useless as well thus far, so chargeback might be the only solution in the end.

But hopefully AMD get back to me with something before that, crazy though that an online shop has no direct contact number or email.

Literally had to ring AMD UK customer support and the call centre guy didn't seem to know what to do with my query.

Even though my invoice is from "River Digital Ireland" with a Limerick address/phone, and email said "River Digital is the authorised reseller and merchant of the products and services offered within this store"

Rang River Digital twice and both said it was nothing to do with them and get in touch with AMD.

FFS - sorry man. There is a 6800 up for sale on adverts in Killester at €650 if that's any use to you.

Homelander

Well, still no card, have to say AMD are fairly useless as well thus far, so chargeback might be the only solution in the end.

But hopefully AMD get back to me with something before that, crazy though that an online shop has no direct contact number or email.

Literally had to ring AMD UK customer support and the call centre guy didn't seem to know what to do with my query.

Even though my invoice is from "River Digital Ireland" with a Limerick address/phone, and email said "River Digital is the authorised reseller and merchant of the products and services offered within this store"

Rang River Digital twice and both said it was nothing to do with them and get in touch with AMD.

wotzgoingon

I ordered runners twice a few years apart from Lifestyle Sports and twice the driver(obviously the same guy) sends text message I dropped the parcel off at Centra. That's the only contact he made. The Centra is 4 miles away from my house on a main road.

JoyPad

GHOST MGG wrote: »

I have had a few run ins with fastway in my time..

These are very good examples of what happens with our regular mail in the estate where I live. I receive mail for other people, and sometimes I see neighbours deliver post with my name on it that was dropped in their mailboxes.

GHOST MGG

I have had a few run ins with fastway in my time..expected one delivery..got the text message that it was delivered to me and signed for...no sign of it..Next day a guy pulls up and says this package was left at his house and luckily my address was on it..so fair play to him.

Another time same thing happened..they said parcel was delivered and signed for..and i had not got it..
2 days later it shows up..later i found out that delivery driver will usually sign that a parcel is delivered if he is behind schedule of he cant be arsed to deliver it because of traffic/ too far from his normal deliver route

I would say wait a day or 2 before you report it to police just in case it comes.

Samuel T. Cogley

Homelander wrote: »

I didn't realise they would be the courier, if I had I would not have used them.

They are unbelievable, they literally leave parcels on doorsteps all the time.

For all I know they left my RX6800 on my doorstep at 7am and it was stolen.

I mean what happens in that case, it says I signed for the ****ing thing, I'm sure AMD will look at it and go "you signed for it"...how are they supposed to know that's not my signature?

Report it to the Gardaí and make sure they give you a PULSE ID. This will at least show you're not trying to pull a fast one.

Homelander

GHOST MGG wrote: »

Yeah but usually the garden they dump it in is about 20 miles away from where it should be...i hate fastway..i steer well away from any site using them as delivery.

I didn't realise they would be the courier, if I had I would not have used them.

They are unbelievable, they literally leave parcels on doorsteps all the time.

For all I know they left my RX6800 on my doorstep at 7am and it was stolen.

I mean what happens in that case, it says I signed for the ****ing thing, I'm sure AMD will look at it and go "you signed for it"...how are they supposed to know that's not my signature?

GHOST MGG

Rumours floating around this morning that AMD have had talks with AIB partners to ensure their cards are sold at MSRP and we should expect a influx of those MSRP cards within 8 weeks

GHOST MGG

yoshiktk wrote: »

Typical Fastway. Deliver it, dump it in garden.

Yeah but usually the garden they dump it in is about 20 miles away from where it should be...i hate fastway..i steer well away from any site using them as delivery.

yoshiktk

Homelander wrote: »

My RX6800 was delivered by Fastway this morning and signed for by me. Except it wasn't, and receptionist knows nothing about it either. Call to Fastway got nowhere. Seriously hope it turns up tomorrow.

Typical Fastway. Deliver it, dump it in garden.

Foxhole Norman

Homelander wrote: »

My RX6800 was delivered by Fastway this morning and signed for by me. Except it wasn't, and receptionist knows nothing about it either. Call to Fastway got nowhere. Seriously hope it turns up tomorrow.

That's happening very often with deliveries in general. We have it with a lot of our orders due to Covid. Most of the time the delivery driver didn't get time to deliver it on his run and will sign your name and try again the next day.