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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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[Deleted User]

United Ireland isn't at all what folk reckon it might be. It's not the 26 counties taking back the 6 ...... it's a new 32 county country........ new anthem, new flag, Loyalists being accomodated........ it'll won't happen in the next 99 years I reckon.

declanflynn

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The UK isn't a nation, the Irish are. The way it's going the last people on Earth who'll describe themselves as 'British only' will be Unionists (former Unionists in a United Ireland) despite not having lived in Britain for centuries.

I doubt they understand that, but it's TRUE, we are watching the final days of the once mighty (rolls eyes) united kingdom

declanflynn

Augeo wrote: »

United Ireland isn't at all what folk reckon it might be. It's not the 26 counties taking back the 6 ...... it's a new 32 county country........ new anthem, new flag, Loyalists being accomodated........ it'll won't happen in the next 99 years I reckon.

Take ur head out of the sand mate

[Deleted User]

declanflynn wrote: »

Take ur head out of the sand mate

I could say the same to you "mate".
When it comes to it not many folk in the 6 counties will want to pay thousands more to buy a car and not many in the 26 counties will want to pay extra tax to subsidise the sink hole the 6 counties are.

The SF following Celtic jersey clad folk etc will be in favour of it no doubt.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The UK isn't a nation, the Irish are. The way it's going the last people on Earth who'll describe themselves as 'British only' will be Unionists (former Unionists in a United Ireland) despite not having lived in Britain for centuries.

You might want to write the UN and tell them they are wrong!
https://www.un.int/protocol/sites/www.un.int/files/Protocol%20and%20Liaison%20Service/officialnamesofcountries.pdf

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The UK isn't a nation, the Irish are. The way it's going the last people on Earth who'll describe themselves as 'British only' will be Unionists (former Unionists in a United Ireland) despite not having lived in Britain for centuries.

Who belongs to that Irish nation of yours? Interested on your definition

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

Who belongs to that Irish nation of yours? Interested on your definition

Irish people, particularly Irish people born in Ireland.

ELM327

Augeo wrote: »

United Ireland isn't at all what folk reckon it might be. It's not the 26 counties taking back the 6 ...... it's a new 32 county country........ new anthem, new flag, Loyalists being accomodated........ it'll won't happen in the next 99 years I reckon.

I have no problem with this. In the past whole island elections, affluent areas in Ireland (including Dublin) returned unionist candidates. We have a representative democracy so it's natural there would be unionist representation in the parliament in the future.

To be honest, I agree with your perception. This isnt going to be like west and east germany. (it will in one way, the Germans are still paying for that, 30 years on!)

There will have to be considerations given to a confederate ireland of two independent states north and south, or of a united Ireland rejoining the commonwealth. Something to unite the country but show unionism that they are welcomed and respected.
We're all people at the end of the day. Hopefully the days of the bullet are still gone, and replaced with the ballot box.

ELM327

downcow wrote: »

Who belongs to that Irish nation of yours? Interested on your definition

Irish = Born in Ireland.

Everyone from Bobby Sands to Ian Paisley meets that definition.

FrancieBrady

ELM327 wrote: »

Irish = Born in Ireland.

Everyone from Bobby Sands to Ian Paisley meets that definition.

Yes, even if they resist we will give them passports when they are stuck.

saabsaab

downcow wrote: »

Haha. A british spy once told me......

And
You are probably right, sure why would you take any risks to play a part in ending racism when all the other mugs in Europe will do the dying for you and they can have their cities bombed. Shameful

I have huge admiration for those from ROI who ignored your attitude and payed the ultimate sacrifice LWF

No neutral nation took part until they were attacked. In this we were no different. In addition our Gov had been at war with the British less that 20 years earlier they could not be blamed for being tardy in coming to their aid. By the way the spy was J Betjeman the info is from recently released british files.

downcow

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Irish people, particularly Irish people born in Ireland.

So does 'particularly' mean they are super-irish or what do you mean.
also when you say 'irish people' does that mean anyone in the world who claims Irish heritage or is it based on passports or what?

downcow

ELM327 wrote: »

Irish = Born in Ireland.

Everyone from Bobby Sands to Ian Paisley meets that definition.

So does that mean, Not born in Ireland = not Irish?

downcow

saabsaab wrote: »

No neutral nation took part until they were attacked. In this we were no different. The spy was J Betjeman the info is from recently released british files.

of course we could use another word to describe them - Cowards

Annd9

downcow wrote: »

As I have said several times the term failure or success is very subjective. I accept your premise that a good way to go is to compare to another.
I think your figures of Northern Ireland people travelling to work in building sites in the Republic of Ireland is ridiculous, but since you have zero evidence other than a hunch it will be hard to disprove.

When you compare Northern Ireland to the Republic of Ireland, one big problem is that you are comparing a small region of the nation, with an entire nation. If you wish to use your method of deciding who is the greater success, and you would like to compare our nation with your nation, I would suggest that there is a very significant number more Republic of Ireland residents who moved to my nation, the UK, to find work. If you think this is not true then certainly I can look for stats. So using your rule this would suggest that my nation is much more successful than your nation, or you nation is a greater failure than mine.

I also do not know why you are upset about you challenging me that my nation is comparable to Nazi Germany. Another ludicrous statement not based on any fact. My nation took on Germany while your nation sat aside and reaped the benefits. To make matters worse, some of your countryfolk collaborated with the Nazis. Of course, thankfully, there were a much greater number of your countryfolk who volunteered to fight alongside our nation to defeat Nazism - it would be nice if your government had done the same

A little quirk I have just noticed. I use dictation software, and during that last post each time I referred to ‘your nation’ my computer typed ‘urination’.
Did it need corrected? I don’t know, but I corrected it anyhow

Unfortunately I cannot provide you with exact figures on cross border commuting so I accept your apprehension . I am simply going on first hand experience which you can believe or not , I'm sure any other posters working on construction in the Leinster region could verify .

Once again this thread is about The North being a success or not , I never once compared it to the south ? I'm simply asking why so many people feel the need to cross the border for work ? I'm guessing it's because The UK has some of the most underfunded regions in Europe (The North being one )

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out-of-the-10-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe/06/06/

If you want to start the argument about sympathetic leanings towards Germany before the horror of what they did was truly revealed to the world , using the British as some sort of shining light is absolutely hilarious to say the least .

Granted we never joined the war but we were fresh enough from having some of our own problems with a certain neighbour .

downcow

Annd9 wrote: »

Unfortunately I cannot provide you with exact figures on cross border commuting so I accept your apprehension . I am simply going on first hand experience which you can believe or not , I'm sure any other posters working on construction in the Leinster region could verify .

Once again this thread is about The North being a success or not , I never once compared it to the south ? I'm simply asking why so many people feel the need to cross the border for work ? I'm guessing it's because The UK has some of the most underfunded regions in Europe (The North being one )

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-uk-has-9-out-of-the-10-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe/06/06/

If you want to start the argument about sympathetic leanings towards Germany before the horror of what they did was truly revealed to the world , using the British as some sort of shining light is absolutely hilarious to say the least .

Granted we never joined the war but we were fresh enough from having some of our own problems with a certain neighbour .

how does this sit alongside the huge numbers of Irish who move to work in the UK?

saabsaab

downcow wrote: »

of course we could use another word to describe them - Cowards

By your definition they were all Cowards that's every neutral country? Every One. Churchill wasn't too anxious to get troops into mainland Europe until the Russians had done plenty of dying first and the tide had turned. Almost 90% of the German army fought on the Eastern front.

FrancieBrady

saabsaab wrote: »

By your definition they were all Cowards that's every neutral country? Every One. Churchill wasn't too anxious to get troops into mainland Europe until the Russians had done plenty of dying first and the tide had turned. Almost 90% of the German army fought on the Eastern front.

Churchill hadn't a bob left, He was lucky the German's had their head turned and didn't invade. Only Roosevelt pulled a few strings he wouldn't have mounted a challenge at all. The Americans/Russians and the rest of the Allies won the war for him and then finished off the empire.

saabsaab

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Churchill hadn't a bob left, He was lucky the German's had their head turned and didn't invade. Only Roosevelt pulled a few strings he wouldn't have mounted a challenge at all. The Americans/Russians and the rest of the Allies won the war for him and then finished off the empire.

True to some extent but Russia would have collapsed early on if they didn't get supplies from mainly the USA with the essential aid of British shipping and The RN.

Annd9

downcow wrote: »

how does this sit alongside the huge numbers of Irish who move to work in the UK?

I've already stated that if you would like a discussion on Emigration we can do elsewhere . This thread is about the North and my point is about cross border commuting .

FrancieBrady

saabsaab wrote: »

True to some extent but Russia would have collapsed early on if they didn't get supplies from mainly the USA with the essential aid of British shipping and The RN.

I'm sure the 50 ships from the States helped the RN too.

Not getting into it, just to say that Britain won nothing on their own, as some like to pretend.

They were lucky they had something to barter with.

declanflynn

Augeo wrote: »

I could say the same to you "mate".
When it comes to it not many folk in the 6 counties will want to pay thousands more to buy a car and not many in the 26 counties will want to pay extra tax to subsidise the sink hole the 6 counties are.

The SF following Celtic jersey clad folk etc will be in favour of it no doubt.

And the DUP following rangers Jersey clad folk etc will be in favour of staying on the sinking ship that is the uk

downcow

Annd9 wrote: »

I've already stated that if you would like a discussion on Emigration we can do elsewhere . This thread is about the North and my point is about cross border commuting .

I think you premise is a nonsense.
You don’t want to consider people immigrating or moving temporarily for work in UK. You suggest that does not demonstrate a failed state.
But let’s assume everything you say is correct and Roi employment is booming and thousands are flocking from OWC to avail of these jobs.
Surely it tells you the amazing success OWC is if these thousands put up with the daily commute so as they can have the quality of life owc provides, not to mention the nhs, our schools, community, etc. If these people thought Roi was even nearly as good as owc to live in then there is nothing to stop them moving and avoiding 4 hours a day commuting

You might have more jobs but you clearly don’t have the quality of life. I know which one I would measure success by.

downcow

declanflynn wrote: »

And the DUP following rangers Jersey clad folk etc will be in favour of staying on the sinking ship that is the uk

I think it’s Celtic that are sinking

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Churchill hadn't a bob left, He was lucky the German's had their head turned and didn't invade. Only Roosevelt pulled a few strings he wouldn't have mounted a challenge at all. The Americans/Russians and the rest of the Allies won the war for him and then finished off the empire.

I see you`re back to your usual drivel about the UK and WW2-it would be acceptable if your factual knowledge was`nt so woefully lacking.Here`s just a small snippet of information you appear unaware of,which contradicts your assertion the UK was a bit part player in WW2.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ww2-anniversary-arctic-convoys/russia-honours-first-british-arctic-convoy-75-years-on-idUKKCN1162JX

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I think you premise is a nonsense.
You don’t want to consider people immigrating or moving temporarily for work in UK. You suggest that does not demonstrate a failed state.
But let’s assume everything you say is correct and Roi employment is booming and thousands are flocking from OWC to avail of these jobs.
Surely it tells you the amazing success OWC is if these thousands put up with the daily commute so as they can have the quality of life owc provides, not to mention the nhs, our schools, community, etc. If these people thought Roi was even nearly as good as owc to live in then there is nothing to stop them moving and avoiding 4 hours a day commuting

You might have more jobs but you clearly don’t have the quality of life. I know which one I would measure success by.

How likely would it be that somebody who has to travel so far to just earn a living would have the wherewithal to move?
We already know those mobile enough are leaving you and not coming back.
https://www.lighthouseni.com/news/northern-ireland-brain-drain-statistics-overdue/

Junkyard Tom

200,000 people from the UK moved to Ireland since the turn of the millennium, on a pro-rata basis that would be equivalent to around three million Irish moving to Britain.

I'm sure immigration from Britain to Ireland will remain strong with the utter ****-show Brexit is turning out to be. Also British people settle well in Ireland and fully integrate, maybe Unionists in the north could learn a thing or two from the British.

saabsaab

Perhaps reverse the question and see what answer is there?

How is the Northern Ireland a success?

declanflynn

downcow wrote: »

I think it’s Celtic that are sinking

now I know how the EU negotiating team feel, it's like explaining quantum physics to pre school kids

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

200,000 people from the UK moved to Ireland since the turn of the millennium, on a pro-rata basis that would be equivalent to around three million Irish moving to Britain.

I'm sure immigration from Britain to Ireland will remain strong with the utter ****-show Brexit is turning out to be. Also British people settle well in Ireland and fully integrate, maybe Unionists in the north could learn a thing or two from the British.

Loads of British people here in this small border town, never an issue with any of them. Except a lad I employed who did like to go on about how everything was better in England. Never did figure out why he was here. Good worker though, so we put up with it.