Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

votecounts wrote: »

Comparing gaa flags which are put up due to being supported by sportsfans to loyalist flags which support bigotry, intimation, murderers.etc is completely stupid. What next, comparing St. Patricks day parade which is an inclusive event celebrated the world over to the 12th july parade which only serves a purpose of burning tricolours, putting nationalist political posters on bonfires and threatening people when can't walk a certain road.

Either completely naive or completely disingenuous. I wish I knew.
Actually I don’t think I case waste energy responded to something as blatantly one sided as this. You probably should just reflect on your post and try again

downcow wrote: »

I am sure you don’t mean it to be but are you aware how arrogant your post would read to any unionists.
To suggest that unionists should accept a flag that became official flag of Roi when it separated from uk and was never an official flag in the 6 counties.
Also to say it is somehow a flag of peace because republicans designed it and decided it should be and decided how they would represent british people in it. This is the height of arrogance

I could say all the same things about the union flag. In 1801 the most well know flag in the world was amended to include the st Patrick’s cross so as. To welcome Ireland into the fold and recognise your importance to our great nation.
I wouldn’t say that because I am aware it would be arrogant and unreasonable even though true.

It was designed by French women and presented to Thomas Francis Meagher in 1848. It's intention was outlined by Meagher as:

"The white in the centre signifies a lasting truce between Orange and Green and I trust that beneath its folds the hands of Irish Protestants and Irish Catholics may be clasped in generous and heroic brotherhood".

The colours representing the two major traditions here are 'equal' in weight on the flag even though the Protestant tradition was always the minority one. Something of which I am proud of as a democrat and a republican.
The problem with the Union Jack is that St Patrick's Cross was incorporated into the flag without asking the people if that was what they wanted.

Junkyard Tom

A lot of Unionist hate isn't for the GAA in and of itself but the community who enjoy it:

'Roman Catholics going to and from their Masses and GAA matches on Sundays and all of that stuff - everything that auld Sabbath breakers do ... the auld GAA [...] and everything Fenian and dark and hellish it stands for.”

'Pastor' Barry Halliday.

A lot of these people have deep-seated anti-Catholic anti-Nationalist feelings and, for them, the sight of their neighbours just enjoying their ordinary civic lives, like hundreds of thousands of Irish people do every Sunday all over Ireland, just reminds them of the loss of having their boot on their necks.

Imagine Halliday (former UDR) stopping your car, with a machine gun on his hip, on a dark country road in mid Ulster during the Troubles? Scary stuff.

grayzer75 wrote: »

I've lived in a mixed village for 17 years now but still can't get my head around the whole 12th of July thing. Covering half the village in flags and bunting, putting up an arch on the way into the village, parading into the village and back out to sit in a field all day listening to anti catholic / nationalist speeches in the name of something that happened over 300 years ago - I've heard the speeches myself btw. All it does is raise tensions unnecessarily.

By all means go direct to your field and parade round it until your heart is content but why take over a village when half the population have no interest in it?

Grayzer I really appreciate an honest attempt at dialogue.
I can completely understand your thoughtful confusion.
Your description is fair and I think it would be useful to continue in a vain of the normal general stuff and avoid the extreme exceptions on either side like paramilitary flags or nasty stuff on bonfires I am very happy to address those but I think best done separately.

So fad as the political speeches and the religious service at the field. Did you notice how many were present listening when you were there. Out of a celebration event which will be attended by 10,000s, I can confidently say that not 100 will be present or pay the slightest attention to the the speeches or service. That’s the point the masses go for picnics or to the pub. It is a nonsense and heeds to stop but traditionalists continue it. And yes you are right, clips of speeches I have seen on tv are extreme. Are the speeches all like that- I don’t know. I have been to the twelfth every year of my life (except covid) and I have never heard the speeches.

The flags bunting and arch we will disagree on. I really like them and it fills me with pride and belonging when I drive through an area that is well decorated. I am aware enough to know that nationalists driving through that will feel exactly as I feel driving through an area bedecked in nationalist gaa bunting and flags. But I believe in richness of diversity rather than the beige of neutrality and therefore I need to accept that that is a nationalist celebration and there needs to be space for it. And I accept that decorating towns is a much bigger thing in unionist community in the same way as taking over towns for fleadh is bigger in nationalist community. So it’s not like for like and nationalists will be pissed of more often than unionists with town decorations. And I will have to endure my town having days sometimes feels like weeks of Irish festivals and music in the street.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The problem with the Union Jack is that St Patrick's Cross was incorporated into the flag without asking the people if that was what they wanted.

Exactly the same as the orange being put in the Irish flag to represent the british community living here without asking us.
Ditto. The point I am making

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

A lot of Unionist hate isn't for the GAA in and of itself but the community who enjoy it:

A lot of these people have deep-seated anti-Catholic anti-Nationalist feelings and, for them, the sight of their neighbours just enjoying their ordinary civic lives, like hundreds of thousands of Irish people do every Sunday all over Ireland, just reminds them of the loss of having their boot on their necks.

Imagine Halliday (former UDR) stopping your car, with a machine gun on his hip, on a dark country road in mid Ulster during the Troubles? Scary stuff.

Ditto again tom. Exactly the point I am making. It’s not the decorations it’s what the other community feel when they see them. And what it brings up for them about their past treatment by the other community.

Now we are starting to understand.

downcow wrote: »

Exactly the same as the orange being put in the Irish flag to represent the british community living here without asking us.
Ditto. The point I am making

The Irish flag was incorporated into the Constitution and approved by all. I think we had a Protestant president at the time too.

It's important to stress that it represents the Protestant Orange tradition, howsoever that tradition identifies. Not all of them identify as British just as not all Catholics identify as Irish.

Junkyard Tom

downcow wrote: »

I am aware enough to know that nationalists driving through that will feel exactly as I feel driving through an area bedecked in nationalist gaa bunting and flags.

The desperate grasping to equate supremacist Unionism with ordinary Irish civic life continues.

Unlike the 'Ulster' Banner, Union Flags, and UVF stuff, nobody ever killed their neighbour in the name of a GAA club.

Peter Robinison echoing Carson's:

“What a fool I was. I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into power.”

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/peter-robinson-in-english-tory-brexit-trade-talks-warning-39797214.html

It's something many Unionists know but whose siege mentality won't let them accept.
Maybe the 100 year anniversary might bring some reflection. Will we see a deepening obsession with marking territory or some realism and real moves towards accepting their reality.
Is there a 'leader' who will face the reality that allegiance to Britain has brought them to where they are now - between a rock and a hard place.

BonnieSituation

downcow wrote: »

To welcome Ireland into the fold and recognise yourimportance to our great nation.

Can you try that again please?

The reason you wouldn't say that is because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

There you go again comparing the incomparable.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The Irish flag was incorporated into the Constitution and approved by all. I think we had a Protestant president at the time too.

It's important to stress that it represents the Protestant Orange tradition, howsoever that tradition identifies. Not all of them identify as British just as not all Catholics identify as Irish.

Unfortunately Francis you are dragging the discussion down again to win/lose and I should know better than get dragged into it.
I know an awful lot of people from the orange tradition and I don’t know a single one who would not identify as british (there may be other identities they also own but the only one they would all agree on is british) so it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
And to say you had a Protestant president at the time haha. That’s like saying I have a friend who is a Protestant so I can’t be sectarian.
If my history is correct the Irish flag was never the official flag of the 6 counties but rather was a foreign power telling us that they had designed a flag for us and we should really like it because they have put an orange bit in it hahahahahahahahaha. At least when the union flag got the St Patrick’s cross on it it was the official flag of the UK of gb & Ireland - not that I am defending that in any way, rather just comparing.

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Can you try that again please?

The reason you wouldn't say that is because it doesn't make a lick of sense.

There you go again comparing the incomparable.

I am referring to how Britain was perceived by many 200 years ago. I’m not sure what you issue is

[Deleted User]

Unionism doesn't seem to be reflecting very much on the 100 years. There seems to be a decision to celebrate regardless of what the State they're celebrating has been and is like. If Catholics generally won't celebrate it, it has to be seen as an indictment, it's not much good having a State if half of the population don't buy into it. It's an important moment for unionism to reach out and acknowledge the historically poor treatment of Catholics., but it'll almost certainly squander it.

downcow wrote: »

Unfortunately Francis you are dragging the discussion down again to win/lose and I should know better than get dragged into it.
I know an awful lot of people from the orange tradition and I don’t know a single one who would not identify as british (there may be other identities they also own but the only one they would all agree on is british) so it is disingenuous to suggest otherwise.
And to say you had a Protestant president at the time haha. That’s like saying I have a friend who is a Protestant so I can’t be sectarian.
If my history is correct the Irish flag was never the official flag of the 6 counties but rather was a foreign power telling us that they had designed a flag for us and we should really like it because they have put an orange bit in it hahahahahahahahaha. At least when the union flag got the St Patrick’s cross on it it was the official flag of the UK of gb & Ireland - not that I am defending that in any way, rather just comparing.

I am not 'telling' you anything but the truth about the origins of the flag which you said was designed by republicans.
It wasn't and was approved as the official flag here by all who sat in the Dáil which included those from the protestant tradition.

There are many many Orange lodge members and from the Orange tradition here who would not identify as British downcow.

It is a shame the debate is being dominated again by our resident xxxxxs (a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.)

I would love to hear from open minded nationalists on this issue of why many nationalists see their displays as more benign than unionist displays (again setting aside both sides nasty extreme stuff on the edges)

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Unionism doesn't seem to be reflecting very much on the 100 years. There seems to be a decision to celebrate regardless of what the State they're celebrating has been and is like. If Catholics generally won't celebrate it, it has to be seen as an indictment, it's not much good having a State if half of the population don't buy into it. It's an important moment for unionism to reach out and acknowledge the historically poor treatment of Catholics., but it'll almost certainly squander it.

I think we should continue to do that, and unilaterally if necessary. I would be great though if both communities would do it

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am not 'telling' you anything but the truth about the origins of the flag which you said was designed by republicans.
It wasn't and was approved as the official flag here by all who sat in the Dáil which included those from the protestant tradition.

There are many many Orange lodge members and from the Orange tradition here who would not identify as British downcow.

Your second para is a very fair point I had overlooked - a classic example of seeing things from our own perspective only.
Yes of course there are orange members in Roi who are not british. The spirit of what I meant is still accurate ie there are no orange in ni who are not british.

I will have to check my history but I assumed the Dail which agreed the flag would have been majority nationalist in the same way as the majority in ni parliament who agreed the Ulster banner would have been majority unionist.

Could you confirm if that was the case Francie ?

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

It is a shame the debate is being dominated again by our resident xxxxxs (a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.)

I would love to hear from open minded nationalists on this issue of why many nationalists see their displays as more benign than unionist displays (again setting aside both sides nasty extreme stuff on the edges)

The irony of your opening paragraph is staggering, Downcow...but while perhaps ill advised, I'll engage with your question.

Firstly in the Irish state, all flags are more benign than in the North, so those speaking from the context of their experiences in the 26 counties obviously won't have the same stigma attached to flags, and are unlikely to have been exposed to the territorialism of the North, which is often more akin to dogs and lampposts.

In the North, while I think your community tends to more of the territory marking behaviour (I've seen very few kerbs painted in green white and orange), there is certainly an equivalency to be noted between the flying of Tricolours vs Union Flags in areas to denote one community's ownership of the place. Without even pulling into the even more questionable, 'Soldier F' or UVF flags often flown alongside them, in both cases these flags are inherently political. There is no possible way to detach this from politics, no grey area end of story. The intention of flying these flags is always political.

This doesn't apply to GAA flags. While you may infer politics from a GAA flag, they are not inherently political, they're a sporting organisation. While some people may engage in flying county or club flags to make a political statement, plenty of people (I'd vouch the majority) fly GAA county flags to support their local team. This would be evidenced by the existence of the new East Belfast GAA club, and the PSNI GAA club (who had their best ever season last year).

There's also much less of the permanent/year round flying of these flags, generally they're flown in the event of an upcoming fixture, during a fixture or after a victory in a fixture. The more significant the fixture, the more likely you are to see them. This further lends credence to the idea that they're not political territory marking like the previously discussed flags, which are often permanently flown (and often in very poor condition, which I always thought was very disrespectful of that which they're trying to push).

It would be much more comparable if you were discussing NI flags being flown in the lead up to a soccer game rather than the year round Union flag, Red Hand, Ulster Banner tower often sported on lampposts year round.

[Deleted User]

downcow wrote: »

It is a shame the debate is being dominated again by our resident xxxxxs (a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.)

I would love to hear from open minded nationalists on this issue of why many nationalists see their displays as more benign than unionist displays (again setting aside both sides nasty extreme stuff on the edges)

Displays in the North are often not benign, even covering a village in flags is a terrible idea, as it is going to alienate a lot of people, it's true of both nationalists and unionists.
Again it's an indictment of the North that marking out territory is totally commonplace. There can be exceptions, putting up flags when a GAA team or Linfield or Northern Ireland are going well should be accepted, and would be in a more functional society.
Unionists should be looking for a moratorium on the territory marking kind of stuff, they're going to need Catholic support sooner rather than later, need a de-escalation strategy of some kind.

saabsaab

It doesn't really matter the origins or symbolism of the tricolour at this point. It is seen as a 'free state' 26 county flag and wouldn't be appropriate in a 32 county context. A new flag amongst other changes would be needed in an Ireland united.

saabsaab wrote: »

It doesn't really matter the origins or symbolism of the tricolour at this point. It is seen as a 'free state' 26 county flag and wouldn't be appropriate in a 32 county context. A new flag amongst other changes would be needed in an Ireland united.

No problem with all the people deciding on a new flag, for the first time ever.

Would you accept that downcow?

downcow wrote: »

It is a shame the debate is being dominated again by our resident xxxxxs (a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.)

I would love to hear from open minded nationalists on this issue of why many nationalists see their displays as more benign than unionist displays (again setting aside both sides nasty extreme stuff on the edges)

If Ireland was combined then the Irish and Northern Irish flag would have to be gone. We would need a new flag.
New anthem for Ireland
All parades, St Patrick and Orange order would have to be treated with the same respect. If the Orange order want to walk up the middle of Dublin then let them off.
Which city is the capital of Ireland? in the new Ireland Belfast is just as entitled to see itself as capital as Dublin.
Which government buildings are used for Dail or what it will be called. It can't be called Dail. I would expect we will need new buildings
How will HSE and NI Health integrate? both have different policies so that is going to be a nightmare to bring both together
Government offices like revenue etc are all based in Dublin, this would not be able to continue.
Easiest way would be to shut all government building both sides and build a new ones in a specific location in Ireland.
These are just a few things off top of head which would need to be considered before even looking at a combined Ireland. The answer you will get here from the SF heads is that more or less everyone will just take on the Rep's way. This is not the way forward

Most people you meet on the street downcow will have a decent conversation in regards to what a Unified Ireland would look like. All of these topics would come up, people are aware you can't just take over Northern Ireland so to speak and then tell them they have to do exactly what the Republic wants.

I think you know already getting a balanced view point on this thread is not achievable. I seen FF are having a discussion on facebook and invited an actual minister from the North, Ian Paisley Junior. So at least both sides get to give an opinion. Something some parties would never dream of doing. Better to slag them off and play to the crowd which gets lapped up by the few.

Solutionking wrote: »

The answer you will get here from the SF heads is that more or less everyone will just take on the Rep's way.

Just another lie you have made up SK.

Never mind the 'SF heads' here, not even SF themselves say that.

Mary Lou McDonald wrote:

"I think that we can have not just an united Ireland, but an equal Ireland, an entire society of people getting the chance to turn the page.

"Unionists, loyalists, call them whatever, that's a tricky one. On the one hand we've got to accept and respect the fact that when we have our debate and our referendum on unity they're going to come out and argue against it, which they are perfectly entitled to do. But at the same time we have to create a mechanism wherein everyone can have their first option - but if your first option is not available, what does Plan B and Plan C look like?

"I know from talking to unionists, or loyalists, or British citizens, they have some ideas as to what this new chapter, new Ireland, might look like. I don't want the new united Ireland to become a bigger Republic. That would be a complete waste of a huge opportunity.

"I hope we have learnt the lesson that you have to respect people's beliefs. The state that we live in has to facilitate all of that."

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just another lie you have made up SK.

Never mind the 'SF heads' here, not even SF themselves say that.

You are very angry. Relax man its a Friday.
Maybe discuss the topics I raised. Every post with you is a personal attack.

Solutionking wrote: »

You are very angry. Relax man its a Friday.
Maybe discuss the topics I raised. Every post with you is a personal attack.

It's not an 'attack' it is pointing out a lie you told.

If it isn't a lie, post a link to where a 'SF head' has said 'that more or less everyone will just take on the Rep's way.' in a UI?

Other than that, I have said everything is up for discussion, the flag, the anthem, capitals etc. As long as it is a democratic decision that is fine by me.

'Respect' will have to be earned though, nobody has a right to it and it shouldn't be given just to appease.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It's not an 'attack' it is pointing out a lie you told.

If it isn't a lie, post a link to where a 'SF head' has said 'that more or less everyone will just take on the Rep's way.' in a UI?

Other than that, I have said everything is up for discussion, the flag, the anthem, capitals etc. As long as it is a democratic decision that is fine by me.

'Respect' will have to be earned though, nobody has a right to it and it shouldn't be given just to appease.

In regards to the bit I put in bold. What are you talking about? the people in Northern Ireland will be deemed as second class citizens till the earn the respect from you? what do they have to do to earn this respect? do you have list of qualifications?

You want the people of Northern Ireland to throw out all their history? is that the plan? then once you or someone else decides they have now earned this respect they can do what? are they then treated as equals?

Solutionking wrote: »

In regards to the bit I put in bold. What are you talking about? the people in Northern Ireland will be deemed as second class citizens till the earn the respect from you? what do they have to do to earn this respect? do you have list of qualifications?

You want the people of Northern Ireland to throw out all their history? is that the plan? then once you or someone else decides they have now earned this respect they can do what? are they then treated as equals?

You mentioned respect in relation to St Patrick's Day parades and the Orange Order.

No closed, bigoted organisation has my 'respect'.
I never mentioned the 'people of Northern Ireland' more and more of whom are leaving the Orange Order even according to downcow.

I find St. Patrick's Day Parades tacky myself and never go to them, but each to their own. I see no disrespect shown by them to any minority.

votecounts

Solutionking wrote: »

In regards to the bit I put in bold. What are you talking about? the people in Northern Ireland will be deemed as second class citizens till the earn the respect from you? what do they have to do to earn this respect? do you have list of qualifications?

You want the people of Northern Ireland to throw out all their history? is that the plan? then once you or someone else decides they have now earned this respect they can do what? are they then treated as equals?

maybe not burning tricolours on bonfires on the 12th would be a start. Maybe realising that they simply can't march where they are not wanted. Only people who do that are those looking confrontation. maybe some of their politicians not referring to our former taoiseach as "the queer indian" as john taylor called him.
These would all be a start.

ELM327

downcow wrote: »

Your second para is a very fair point I had overlooked - a classic example of seeing things from our own perspective only.
Yes of course there are orange members in Roi who are not british. The spirit of what I meant is still accurate ie there are no orange in ni who are not british.

I will have to check my history but I assumed the Dail which agreed the flag would have been majority nationalist in the same way as the majority in ni parliament who agreed the Ulster banner would have been majority unionist.

Could you confirm if that was the case Francie ?

You are aware that "Northern Ireland" has no official state flag beyond the union jack?