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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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Rolo2010

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So are the many many monuments and names celebrating Britain and Unionism. Not least the statue to the original 'terrorist' who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics - Carson.

Yet nobody wants that all torn down.

By all means fly the British flag and mark your kebs Red White and Blue...but understand what it is - the marking of territory.

Exactly. Unionists didn't want home rule because Irish people would be the majority. Of course they had a different view when it was just home rule for NI backed up by the British state. That allowed them to put the boot on Irish necks.

RobMc59

jm08 wrote: »

Would renaming them make a difference?

Probably not now but it might discourage some who might like to go to a game.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So are the many many monuments and names celebrating Britain and Unionism. Not least the statue to the original 'terrorist' who re-introduced the gun to Irish politics - Carson.

Yet nobody wants that all torn down.

By all means fly the British flag and mark your kebs Red White and Blue...but understand what it is - the marking of territory.

Steady on francie,I understand GAA is an Irish sport which is fine.I wasn't trying to criticize the ground names,just suggesting it might discourage some people..
No painted kerbs here in England.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Steady on francie,I understand GAA is an Irish sport which is fine.I wasn't trying to criticize the ground names,just suggesting it might discourage some people..

It didn't discourage Arlene from going to a game nor does British and Unionism celebrations of belligerence and oppression discourage Irish politicians nor ever did.

That Arlene could no longer hold on to her bigotry and had to behave like a democrat speaks volumes.

GAA games were played by the RUC and PSNI, is played in Britain and all around the world, displaying the British flag outside the norms of everywhere else in the UK is only pertinent to that place peopled by Unionists. Obsessed with territory marking Unionists

Junkyard Tom

So intimidating the GAA is that it has managed to intimidate East Belfastonians to set up their own GAA club that is thriving and has led to members getting engaged to one another! Horrifying!

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downcow

This is what I find really enlightening about this forum. I never cease to be surprised by the levels of prejudice and hypocrisy displayed by some.
Poster after poster here seems to think it is fine to cover a town in their flags but disgusting the other way around.

I would love someone to tell me clearly and articulately what is the difference in a unionist majority putting up Ulster flags and a nationalist majority putting up gaa flags.

Don’t attack me, stick to the question. I genuinely would like help to understand that mentality.

And if it helps you let me give you a little local background.
My town has decreased from 40% unionist to less than 2%. The last unionists left after a Wolfe tone concert in the gaa club led to their houses being attacked by a drunken mob. The Ira commemoration Easter parade use the gaa hall to get changed before and after, etc. So this beleaguered minority have to put up with the town bedecked annually in gaa flags and bunting and watch people walking into shops with gaa hunger strike and 1916 jerseys on.

Help me please

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

This is what I find really enlightening about this forum. I never cease to be surprised by the levels of prejudice and hypocrisy displayed by some.
Poster after poster here seems to think it is fine to cover a town in their flags but disgusting the other way around.

I would love someone to tell me clearly and articulately what is the difference in a unionist majority putting up Ulster flags and a nationalist majority putting up gaa flags.

Don’t attack me, stick to the question. I genuinely would like help to understand that mentality.

And if it helps you let me give you a little local background.
My town has decreased from 40% unionist to less than 2%. The last unionists left after a Wolfe tone concert in the gaa club led to their houses being attacked by a drunken mob. The Ira commemoration Easter parade use the gaa hall to get changed before and after, etc. So this beleaguered minority have to put up with the town bedecked annually in gaa flags and bunting and watch people walking into shops with gaa hunger strike and 1916 jerseys on.

Help me please

The GAA is a sporting organisation.

'Unionism' is a political ideology that ran a sectarian bigoted statlet for 80 years backed by the British state.

Beltby

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GAA is a sporting organisation.

'Unionism' is a political ideology that ran a sectarian bigoted statlet for 80 years backed by the British state.

I couldn't have explained it more clearly myself.

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

I couldn't have explained it more clearly myself.

I trust that is sarcasm beltby

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The GAA is a sporting organisation.

'Unionism' is a political ideology that ran a sectarian bigoted statlet for 80 years backed by the British state.

So if my town was bedecked annually with Celtic flags you would feel that was fine?

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

So if my town was bedecked annually with Celtic flags you would feel that was fine?

Are they a Gaa team?

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

I couldn't have explained it more clearly myself.

Could you place these flags in ‘ok’ and ‘not ok’, based on a town’s majority bedecking their town in them?

Ni football flag
Celtic flag
Ulster flag
Irish tricolours
Sunburst
Starry plough
Uvf 1918 flag
St Patrick’s flag
Rangers flag
Rainbow flag
Union flag
Etc

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Could you place these flags in ‘ok’ and ‘not ok’, based on a town’s majority bedecking their town in them?

Ni football flag
Celtic flag
Ulster flag
Irish tricolours
Sunburst
Starry plough
Uvf 1918 flag
St Patrick’s flag
Rainbow flag
Union flag
Etc

Heart of your problem right there. 'Majority' and ownership. Unbelievable reveal again.

You need to study what a democracy is downcow, just because you are in the majority does not mean you 'own' it.

The core reason partition failed, right there in one post.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Heart of your problem right there. 'Majority' and ownership. Unbelievable reveal again.

You need to study what a democracy is downcow, just because you are in the majority does not mean you 'own' it.

The core reason partition failed, right there in one post.

Francie ducks the question again. Monotonous

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie ducks the question again. Monotonous

I'm not 'Beltby'.

You don't own the places you live in downcow. Perhaps try and accept that after 100 yrs of trying.

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

Could you place these flags in ‘ok’ and ‘not ok’, based on a town’s majority bedecking their town in them?

Ni football flag
Celtic flag
Ulster flag
Irish tricolours
Sunburst
Starry plough
Uvf 1918 flag
St Patrick’s flag
Rangers flag
Rainbow flag
Union flag
Etc

You're easily outraged.

downcow

downcow wrote: »

This is what I find really enlightening about this forum. I never cease to be surprised by the levels of prejudice and hypocrisy displayed by some.
Poster after poster here seems to think it is fine to cover a town in their flags but disgusting the other way around.

I would love someone to tell me clearly and articulately what is the difference in a unionist majority putting up Ulster flags and a nationalist majority putting up gaa flags.

Don’t attack me, stick to the question. I genuinely would like help to understand that mentality.

And if it helps you let me give you a little local background.
My town has decreased from 40% unionist to less than 2%. The last unionists left after a Wolfe tone concert in the gaa club led to their houses being attacked by a drunken mob. The Ira commemoration Easter parade use the gaa hall to get changed before and after, etc. So this beleaguered minority have to put up with the town bedecked annually in gaa flags and bunting and watch people walking into shops with gaa hunger strike and 1916 jerseys on.

Help me please

So folks, you were falling over each other to have a go and pretend only one sides flags were a problem.
I ask for help to understand and Francie and beltby deflect and the rest of you run for cover

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

So folks, you were falling over each other to have a go and pretend only one sides flags were a problem.
I ask for help to understand and Francie and beltby deflect and the rest of you run for cover

I never said anything about a 'problem', I outlined what each one was i.e. one is celebrating sporting achievement or excitement and the other is a marking of territory. An obsession with a flag and it's display that doesn't exist anywhere else in Ireland or the UK. An attempt was made to bring NI to a standstill when people wanted it displayed normally like everywhere else in the UK.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I never said anything about a 'problem', I outlined what each one was i.e. one is celebrating sporting achievement or excitement and the other is a marking of territory. An obsession with a flag and it's display that doesn't exist anywhere else in Ireland or the UK. An attempt was made to bring NI to a standstill when people wanted it displayed normally like everywhere else in the UK.

More deflection ðŸ¥±

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

More deflection &#55358;&#56689;

Deflecting from what?

saabsaab

How about a new all Ireland flag? Maybe this four provinces

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQHZQSr_Z0pmpwXnJnUIejiXDGgGrjZktvBJu15iscd5FT0iWS0tqU4jcYbb4_7pUetSG5ZIk&usqp=CAc

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTQHZQSr_Z0pmpwXnJnUIejiXDGgGrjZktvBJu15iscd5FT0iWS0tqU4jcYbb4_7pUetSG5ZIk&usqp=CAc

Also a new national anthem for a 32 county republic

and, wait for it..

A new capital!

Fr D Maugire

downcow wrote: »

So folks, you were falling over each other to have a go and pretend only one sides flags were a problem.
I ask for help to understand and Francie and beltby deflect and the rest of you run for cover

GAA flags can be found in any part of Ireland, so not exactly sure what political significance you think they might have in the Republic. If I am driving through some town or village in Wexford and it is bedecked in say Blue/Yellow flags, I would usually assume it to be the colours of a local GAA team who are in a final or something. Now it may be for some other local Sports team doing well, but it is more often than not for a GAA team.

Likewise, if I am driving through some town or village in Down and it is bedecked in say Blue/White flags, I would assume the same thing, a local GAA team in a final or something, but again it could be for some other sports team. I am sure Cavan is covered in blue/white flags at the moment, is it because they are trying to piss off the local Protestant community? or perhaps it's because they won the Ulster Title last Sunday, their first in over 20 years. Lets see now:rolleyes:

Happens all over the island, but as others have pointed out, the Unionist mentality is that it is some blatant political statement. Imagine getting offended because people put up flags to show support for their local U-12 team playing in a final. Totally the same as a UVF flag or IRA flag in your mind somehow.

Hqrry113

saabsaab wrote: »

How about a new all Ireland flag? Maybe this four provinces

Also a new national anthem for a 32 county republic

and, wait for it..

A new capital!

Why would we need a new flag? The Irish flag the green pale of the flag symbolises Roman Catholics, the orange represents the minority Protestants who were supporters of William of Orange and the white in the middle represents the peace between them.

Of course though the unionists still hate the flag and want to wave around their bigoted union jack instead of a flag representing peace and love between the two communities on our island because of hatred implanted in them hundreds of years ago.

The Irish flag is the perfect flag for a united Ireland.

Capt'n Midnight

downcow wrote: »

Writings of Winston Churchill

“By the grace of God Ulster stood a faithful sentinel”

Words are cheap. The plan was to hand NI over.

The British plan, drawn up in June 1940, envisaged an immediate declaration accepting "the principle" of a united Ireland, the establishment of a Joint Defence Council and a joint body to deal with the constitutional detail of unity and the possibility of merging the administrations North and South. In return, the then Taoiseach, Eamon de Valera, was asked to abandon the policy of neutrality

Not that anyone down south trusted it.

votecounts

Comparing gaa flags which are put up due to being supported by sportsfans to loyalist flags which support bigotry, intimation, murderers.etc is completely stupid. What next, comparing St. Patricks day parade which is an inclusive event celebrated the world over to the 12th july parade which only serves a purpose of burning tricolours, putting nationalist political posters on bonfires and threatening people when can't walk a certain road.

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

So if my town was bedecked annually with Celtic flags you would feel that was fine?

since when are celtic a gaa team, which you stated whats the difference between loyalist flags and gaa flags?

downcow

Folks I am taken aback, honestly.
I can disregard the francies on here who dance on the head of a pin to avoid ever being wrong.
But I think I am reading a series of posters who seem genuine and sincere yet completely naive to the marking of territory etc in ni.

I will be completely honest in responses to these posts (I do know that jm08, Francie, etc will see my honesty as weakness and opportunity to twist what I say but so be it)

Here goes - and please try to be honest and thoughtful in your replies and we both might learn something

downcow

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

GAA flags can be found in any part of Ireland, so not exactly sure what political significance you think they might have in the Republic. If I am driving through some town or village in Wexford and it is bedecked in say Blue/Yellow flags, I would usually assume it to be the colours of a local GAA team who are in a final or something. Now it may be for some other local Sports team doing well, but it is more often than not for a GAA team.

Likewise, if I am driving through some town or village in Down and it is bedecked in say Blue/White flags, I would assume the same thing, a local GAA team in a final or something, but again it could be for some other sports team. I am sure Cavan is covered in blue/white flags at the moment, is it because they are trying to piss off the local Protestant community? or perhaps it's because they won the Ulster Title last Sunday, their first in over 20 years. Lets see now:rolleyes:

Happens all over the island, but as others have pointed out, the Unionist mentality is that it is some blatant political statement. Imagine getting offended because people put up flags to show support for their loc GM al U-12 team playing in a final. Totally the same as a UVF flag or IRA flag in your mind somehow.

I agree 100% with your first paragraph and indeed your second para except I never suggested those that were putting up the flags were trying to piss off Protestants - so lets stay with the facts

You depart from reality in your last para
(Firstly I cannot speak for all unionists so I will reflect what I understand the vast majority of my community believe)
No way do we think the majority of gaa put flags up for any reason other than to show their pride and love for the gaa and in particular their local team. I think it is an impressive show of community and sense of belonging to the gaa/ nationalist community.
There is also no way it is like putting up a Uvf or ira flag.
In ni it would be highly unusual for this to happen in an area that was not dominated by nationalists and therefor also an area where unionists have been murdered and have left under intimidation. Unfortunately, in ni most unionists find the gaa flag displays oppressive and a reminder that they have been hammered and driven out of their homes throughout the troubles and that the gaa have been involved in that.

The other bit I don’t think you get is the mind of unionists when flags go up in the summer. They are in the main put up by the local lodge or the local band. Both will host parades in the town or area of town and other lodges and bands will come to their event. There is great pride in having your area look clean tidy and very colourful for the event and in being great hosts that evening.
There are very few people putting u the flags who want to piss off their neighbours and workmates (no doubt a tiny number as in the gaa who do take pleasure in showing their dominance).
I am confident it has the same effect in the minds of nationalists as I have outlined above for unionists.

I would love to see things different and more respect for each other’s identity but we are where we are right now

downcow

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Why would we need a new flag? The Irish flag the green pale of the flag symbolises Roman Catholics, the orange represents the minority Protestants who were supporters of William of Orange and the white in the middle represents the peace between them.

Of course though the unionists still hate the flag and want to wave around their bigoted union jack instead of a flag representing peace and love between the two communities on our island because of hatred implanted in them hundreds of years ago.

The Irish flag is the perfect flag for a united Ireland.

I am sure you don’t mean it to be but are you aware how arrogant your post would read to any unionists.
To suggest that unionists should accept a flag that became official flag of Roi when it separated from uk and was never an official flag in the 6 counties.
Also to say it is somehow a flag of peace because republicans designed it and decided it should be and decided how they would represent british people in it. This is the height of arrogance

I could say all the same things about the union flag. In 1801 the most well know flag in the world was amended to include the st Patrick’s cross so as. To welcome Ireland into the fold and recognise your importance to our great nation.
I wouldn’t say that because I am aware it would be arrogant and unreasonable even though true.

grayzer75

downcow wrote: »

Folks I am taken aback, honestly.
I can disregard the francies on here who dance on the head of a pin to avoid ever being wrong.
But I think I am reading a series of posters who seem genuine and sincere yet completely naive to the marking of territory etc in ni.

I will be completely honest in responses to these posts (I do know that jm08, Francie, etc will see my honesty as weakness and opportunity to twist what I say but so be it)

Here goes - and please try to be honest and thoughtful in your replies and we both might learn something

I've lived in a mixed village for 17 years now but still can't get my head around the whole 12th of July thing. Covering half the village in flags and bunting, putting up an arch on the way into the village, parading into the village and back out to sit in a field all day listening to anti catholic / nationalist speeches in the name of something that happened over 300 years ago - I've heard the speeches myself btw. All it does is raise tensions unnecessarily.

By all means go direct to your field and parade round it until your heart is content but why take over a village when half the population have no interest in it?