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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
TheCitizen
V8 Interceptor
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Cordell - lifted 16/08/21
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blindjustice
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TomSweeney
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Cordell
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seenitall

Yes, different posting styles. I’m here for some amusement, some information and some broad-strokes discussion - my posting history testifies to that. I’m not that interested in raising points, asking for links, honing in on details, or generally taking boards.ie as my personal debating society arena. It’s great that there are posters like you, though, as I like reading more than I like almost anything else, and your posts usually offer plenty of reading material on some topics that are of interest to me (like this thread, for example).

Zookey123

seenitall wrote: »

Yes, different posting styles. I’m here for some amusement, some information and some broad-strokes discussion - my posting history testifies to that. I’m not that interested in raising points, asking for links, honing in on details, or generally taking boards.ie as my personal debating society arena. It’s great that there are posters like you, though, as I like reading more than I like almost anything else, and your posts usually offer plenty of reading material on some topics that are of interest to me (like this thread, for example).

Seriously? This thread is just an echo chamber of the same posters regurgitating the same opinions and patting each other on the back as if some new ground breaking information has been shared. I have yet to see any real discussion taking place just the same gotcha points you expect here.

Wibbs

Zookey123 wrote: »

Seriously? This thread is just an echo chamber of the same posters regurgitating the same opinions and patting each other on the back as if some new ground breaking information has been shared. I have yet to see any real discussion taking place just the same gotcha points you expect here.

You have the same freedom to rebut any or all of the points raised as those who raise them and to regurgitate them to your hearts content. And yet the silence is either deafening, or blind dismissal running all the way to insult from the pro side. Care to explain how a position that is apparently so obvious and logical is so easily "gotcha'd"?

Cordell

Deleted User wrote: »

An injection of DNA to stop our inbreeding...

So why not go for the high quality one? :P

Frankie Machine

Zookey123 wrote: »

Seriously? This thread is just an echo chamber of the same posters regurgitating the same opinions and patting each other on the back as if some new ground breaking information has been shared. I have yet to see any real discussion taking place just the same gotcha points you expect here.

Yet here you are.

Multiculturalism hasn't worked, it won't work. It is a failed agenda, and acknowledged to be failed by extremely prominent European leaders in recent years.

If people who fantasise the world as one big Benetton ad campaign would just face that reality, and lose their superficial attachment to variety, that would be most beneficial.

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

Seriously? This thread is just an echo chamber of the same posters regurgitating the same opinions and patting each other on the back as if some new ground breaking information has been shared. I have yet to see any real discussion taking place just the same gotcha points you expect here.

How about providing some alternative views that actually counter the points made by us?

As opposed to this... "thing" of posters sweeping in to cast their judgment over the entire thread, but not committing themselves to arguing anything relevant to the topic. :rolleyes:

[Deleted User]

Cordell wrote: »

So why not go for the high quality one? :P

I've seen many kids and then seen their parents... quality is hard to pin down.

Ever notice how often really beautiful people come from ugly parents?

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

You have the same freedom to rebut any or all of the points raised as those who raise them and to regurgitate them to your hearts content. And yet the silence is either deafening, or blind dismissal running all the way to insult from the pro side. Care to explain how a position that is apparently so obvious and logical is so easily "gotcha'd"?

Silence due to very little room for discussion. If posters here were actually interested in what the opposite side thought on this topic rather then locked and loaded with gotcha points usually found online via some American media personality there could actually be a healthy discussion. And insults have come from both sides to be fair.

[Deleted User]

Frankie Machine wrote: »

If people who fantasise the world as one big Benetton ad campaign would just face that reality, and lose their superficial attachment to variety, that would be most beneficial.

Multiculturalism is the opposite of biodiversity with regard to humanity

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

Silence due to very little room for discussion. If posters here were actually interested in what the opposite side thought on this topic rather then locked and loaded with gotcha points usually found online via some American media personality there could actually be a healthy discussion. And insults have come from both sides to be fair.

Indulge the bigots.
One advantage of multicularism , bar the food

Zookey123

Deleted User wrote: »

How about providing some alternative views that actually counter the points made by us?

As opposed to this... "thing" of posters sweeping in to cast their judgment over the entire thread, but not committing themselves to arguing anything relevant to the topic. :rolleyes:

Alternative view: Multi-culturalism is actually good for the society as a whole as long as it is controlled. Some cultures are not compatible with modern western society and must alter if they are to integrate. Integration is important as we have seen from our neighbours how segregated minority communities can cause a greater divide between them and the general populace and can actually be dangerous in extreme cases.
Why is Multi-culturalism good? A more diverse work force has been proven to increase workplace efficiency. A better understanding of different cultures and ethnicities. And lets be fair society is a lot more interesting when people with different thoughts and ideas are introduced. Who wants everyone to be homogenised?
Feel free to question any of the above for a healthy discussion. I will not reply to regurgitated gotcha points.

Wibbs

Zookey123 wrote: »

Silence due to very little room for discussion. If posters here were actually interested in what the opposite side thought on this topic rather then locked and loaded with gotcha points usually found online via some American media personality there could actually be a healthy discussion.

I have no idea where the Yanks come in this. Indeed I would say too much of the multicultural diversity is our strength comes from that culture. Well they kinda had to paper over the cracks of their setup with platitudes.

As for discussion: You say Point A, others are free to debate it. You're are free to rebut. Gotcha points would suggest that the points raised don't stand up to much scrutiny. And those points have been raised within the thread. They could be pretty much summed up by the following: The Irish were migrants too. Diversity is better. Exotic is better. Paying our pensions. Charity. And that's about it Zoo.

If you have better points to add I for one would be happy, even grateful to hear them.

And insults have come from both sides to be fair.

All of the thread banned and outright banned posters on this thread have been from the pro side because of the run to insult after what debating points they had were disputed. The insults are very much the tendency of one side in this.

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

All of the thread banned and outright banned posters on this thread have been from the pro side because of the run to insult after what debating points they had were disputed. The insults are very much the tendency of one side in this.

Yeah not sure how un-biased the mods here are. I once got a thread warning for pointing out one of the posters had named themselves after a Nazi military unit.

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

Alternative view: Multi-culturalism is actually good for the society as a whole as long as it is controlled. Some cultures are not compatible with modern western society and must alter if they are to integrate. Integration is important as we have seen from our neighbours how segregated minority communities can cause a greater divide between them and the general populace and can actually be dangerous in extreme cases.

Why would I argue against you when I've made all of those points myself previously on this thread?

Now that is funny.

Why is Multi-culturalism good? A more diverse work force has been proven to increase workplace efficiency. A better understanding of different cultures and ethnicities. And lets be fair society is a lot more interesting when people with different thoughts and ideas are introduced. Who wants everyone to be homogenised?
Feel free to question any of the above for a healthy discussion. I will not reply to regurgitated gotcha points.

regurgitated gotcha points? What would they be? Genuinely curious, although somewhat skeptical since you've decided to moderate peoples responses to you.

In any case, a diverse work force has been proven to increase efficiency when people are of comparable skills and experience... A repeated point made about migrants brought in under the guise of multiculturalism is that often they're lacking in the skills and quantifiable education, to be comparable with employment requirements. I've seen very few posts arguing against multiculturalism from EU countries.. since their educational standards would be similar to our own, and less chance of corruption affecting grades achieved. Edit: just to note, if you have been following the thread, you would know that there is no resistance to skilled/educated migrants who can support themselves without State support... so lets skip a few rounds of wrangling and deal with non-skilled immigration, refugees, asylum seekers, etc.

As for a better understanding of other cultures, I'd query how much people actually involve themselves in cultural exchange. I've worked professionally in environments with nationally diverse colleagues, and people focus on their work, with external interactions being quite stilted. One of the main issues with the practical application of integration, is how do you involve people in the lives of the native population, when we, as a society, are moving further towards isolating ourselves (social media, or not partying due to the costs involved).

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

Yeah not sure how un-biased the mods here are. I once got a thread warning for pointing out one of the posters had named themselves after a Nazi military unit.

Perhaps... but regarding this thread, many posters get away with all manner of offensive behavior. Some people get called up on it. I've been warned against aggressive posting, and have had to defend myself before, to the mods over statements said. TBH I suspect the pro-multiculturalism posters have gotten away with far more offensive remarks on the thread..

The mods are typically quite busy and a lot gets past their radar.

Wibbs

Zookey123 wrote: »

Alternative view: Multi-culturalism is actually good for the society as a whole as long as it is controlled. Some cultures are not compatible with modern western society and must alter if they are to integrate. Integration is important as we have seen from our neighbours how segregated minority communities can cause a greater divide between them and the general populace and can actually be dangerous in extreme cases.

The problem is integration Zoo. Some communities integrate and some don't. Some integrate simply because they don't stand out as obviously different to the locals. So a thrid generation Polish guy will integrate more easily than a third generation Sudanese guy. On the other hand others like East Asians don't integrate very much really, yet almost never show up on the anti social radar, or social welfare offices, so integration isn't that informative. The problem is human nature and you can't legislate for that. People tend to prefer being with others like them in outlook, ethnicity and culture. There isn't a single example of a multicultural society on the planet where this doesn't play out.

Why is Multi-culturalism good? A more diverse work force has been proven to increase workplace efficiency.

Every single one of those studies I've read refer to already existing multicultural nations. Which makes sense. If you have more of demographic A in your company you can sell more goods and services to demographic A. Japan has one of the highest standards of workplace efficiency and they're demographically very monocultural. They are quite capable of importing other cultural stuff into Japan without importing actual people.

A better understanding of different cultures and ethnicities.

If you end up exposed to them. How many Muslim women do you know? And we're back to the knotty problem of integration. Unless you've lived oversaes for a period of time you've likely learned more about other cultures from the TV or internet than through actual contact.

And lets be fair society is a lot more interesting when people with different thoughts and ideas are introduced. Who wants everyone to be homogenised?

And we're kinda back to exoticism again. Would you say the same of an Asian nation that's 99% Asian, or an African nation? Would they be more interesting with an influx of 10% White Europeans? Particularly unskilled ones? And I agree with you regarding thoughts and ideas. However thoughts and ideas can and do move without importing people. Indeed that's how most thoughts and ideas moved throughout history. Europe got printing, the compass, gunpowder and a few other things from Asia, mostly China, yet if there were a thousand Chinese people in the whole of Europe at those times I'd be surprised. The Irish wear jeans and listen to music watch media and increasingly ape accents that are American and yet how many Americans live here? A couple of thousand? Ditto for English influence(and when there were more of them here that wasn't so great

)

[Deleted User]

Advantages of multiculturalism:

Zookey123 wrote: »

Multi-culturalism is actually good for the society as a whole as long as it is controlled. Some cultures are not compatible with modern western society and must alter if they are to integrate. Integration is important as we have seen from our neighbours how segregated minority communities can cause a greater divide between them and the general populace and can actually be dangerous in extreme cases.

Are you sure you're not anti- multiculturalism?
This is a significant argument against it, failure to integrate , preferred ethinc separation....along with "controlled migration"

What does controlled mean to you?

Why is Multi-culturalism good? A more diverse work force has been proven to increase workplace efficiency. A better understanding of different cultures and ethnicities. And lets be fair society is a lot more interesting when people with different thoughts and ideas are introduced. Who wants everyone to be homogenised?

Not entirely convinced. You haven't produced a scintilla to support your opinion, but thats ok, we've all opinions.

Your last point in favour of multiculturalism, re homogeneity, it ronic; that's what we will end up with increasing multiculturalism, a few average phenotypes of human, with little variation.

BTW, no one is out to "gotcha".

Cordell

Zookey123 wrote: »

A more diverse work force has been proven to increase workplace efficiency. A better understanding of different cultures and ethnicities.

No, not really, it was never proven that a diverse workforce is better just because it's diverse. It will be very difficult to prove that anyway.
Having a diverse workforce opens you up to a wider recruiting pool, sure.
A diverse workforce selling to a diverse customer base, again, sure, but this is just a reaction, not diversity being good by itself.
And in general companies that promote diversity are also embracing more modern methods for everything they do, this is why they are efficient, not because of diversity.

Kaybaykwah

Wibbs wrote: »

I have no idea where the Yanks come in this. Indeed I would say too much of the multicultural diversity is our strength comes from that culture. Well they kinda had to paper over the cracks of their setup with platitudes.

As for discussion: You say Point A, others are free to debate it. You're are free to rebut. Gotcha points would suggest that the points raised don't stand up to much scrutiny. And those points have been raised within the thread. They could be pretty much summed up by the following: The Irish were migrants too. Diversity is better. Exotic is better. Paying our pensions. Charity. And that's about it Zoo.

If you have better points to add I for one would be happy, even grateful to hear them.

All of the thread banned and outright banned posters on this thread have been from the pro side because of the run to insult after what debating points they had were disputed. The insults are very much the tendency of one side in this.

To be fair to the Americans, though, I think their outlook is more about blending in. Multiculti is more of a brit/canucky thing, as I am sure you are aware. Just look at our PM Justin Trudeau all get-up like a maharaja saying that Canada had no culture, to justify propping up the communities because that was traditionally the base for the Liberals.
His old man introduced this multibit in the old Liberal toolbox many years ago. Then you had a mini-Trump phenom in Toronto; coked-up mayor Rob Ford, whose talking points spoke to those who suffered from the multi-ethicity seen as encroachment on a vast scale. The movement there was called " Ford Nation". I remember sitting in a café on St Clair and seeing this waspy working class looking dude with a Ford Nation Jacket. That was populism 101, a rallying of them that couldn't abide Toronto's overly complex make-up.

seenitall

Zookey123 wrote: »

Seriously? This thread is just an echo chamber of the same posters regurgitating the same opinions and patting each other on the back as if some new ground breaking information has been shared. I have yet to see any real discussion taking place just the same gotcha points you expect here.

Yes, seriously. I, on the other hand, think there is plenty of interesting and informative discussion to be found in this thread. I get that the topic, and more to the point, the opinions generated within, may not be everyone’s cup of tea; it is a big, complex and at times a sensitive subject. But it is one that is absolutely relevant for the times we live in. Thanks for your input.

Wibbs

Kaybaykwah wrote: »

To be fair to the Americans, though, I think their outlook is more about blending in.

Very much on the surface though Kay. It's mostly flim flam, though much of the diversity politic is. First and foremost America is a White, European, Christian(mostly Protestant) nation squarely built on the idea of that. If you match up to that list or can pass for it you can blend in. If you don't then not nearly so much melting pot for you. Their oft quoted constitution states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" unless you were a slave, woman or native of course. Now things have most certainly much improved and much of it on the back of that statement carried to its logical conclusion(which IIRC Jefferson hoped for regarding slavery), but your average Black American is well down the pecking order compared to your average White centuries on.

Aleece2020

zom wrote: »

So you are literally against their culture and multiculturalism in Ireland?

I don't think you can reasonably call thinly veiled misogyny with a few sprinklings of misandry thrown in to be 'culture.'

However, for the sake of the argument, yes - I am opposed to cultures which label women as property to be used and disposed of at the pleasure of men. And I am certainly against those cultures coming here and trying to insist that the way they treat women is acceptable or morally right.

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

You might have come to think that contraception and abortion are of great benefit, but what do they do to the nation?

They are of great benefit to many people who want to control the size of their families and avoid financial difficulties. The nation doesn't need everyone having a brood of kids that they don't want and can't afford to feed or clothe.

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

They don't oppose abortion because they're trying to make life hard for women. They oppose abortion because someone else's abortion isn't just a case of someone else's child being done away with. One of the nation's children is being done away with.

That's the problem though; they are making it harder for women regardless of if that is the intention behind it or not and the majority of women will not vote for a party that is going to make their lives harder.

If the state wants a larger population or a higher birth rate then the solution isn't banning abortions or contraceptives. Women will travel for abortions, order pills online or die trying to have unsafe home abortions. Contraceptives will still be imported illegally or people will take unsafe home-made ones and end up in the hospital. All banning them will do is make poor families poorer and create resentment in the population for a lack of control over their own reproductive choices.

What they need to offer incentives and make it more affordable to have children. The costs associated with childcare and providing food, clothing and everything else are just too high. I can't imagine some mid-20s person on 24k a year trying to pay bills and rent in Dublin - and then having a child on top of it. It's just not financially possible for most people until they're in their 30s and that needs to change. The age at which people are having their first child keeps going up and it's an issue because people, especially women, are on limited time when it comes to fertility.

MontgomeryClift wrote: »

Half of all aborted babies are female, by the way.

And the other half are male. That's how math works.

Hamachi wrote: »

They’ll quickly figure out that they need to de-couple this approach from an anti-abortion platform or any desire to return this country to a catholic theocracy. There’s a receptive audience out there waiting for a force like this to emerge in Irish politics.

So, when are we running and what shall we name our party? :pac:

[Deleted User]

Aleece2020 wrote: »

So, when are we running and what shall we name our party? :pac:

:pac:

Honestly, I'm so frustrated with the spinelessness and lack of leadership from the political class in this country, I'd almost consider it.

Zookey123

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would I argue against you when I've made all of those points myself previously on this thread?

Now that is funny.

Well I don't think there is anything surprising about finding middle ground.

Deleted User wrote: »

regurgitated gotcha points? What would they be? Genuinely curious, although somewhat skeptical since you've decided to moderate peoples responses to you.

Remarks made to push the poster into a corner as opposed to have a discussion often deviating from the conversation at hand (just scroll around you will see what i mean). Rather than try and win a debate on boards perhaps have an actual discussion? Anyone can respond to me I am just choosing who i reply to.

Deleted User wrote: »

In any case, a diverse work force has been proven to increase efficiency when people are of comparable skills and experience... A repeated point made about migrants brought in under the guise of multiculturalism is that often they're lacking in the skills and quantifiable education, to be comparable with employment requirements.

On your point on experienced workers with a comparable skill set being a necessity for an efficient work place , well obviously.. is anyone disagreeing with you there? I would need citation for your last point. Skilled immigrants are very important for this country and one look inside any hospital would tell you why.

Deleted User wrote: »

I've seen very few posts arguing against multiculturalism from EU countries.. since their educational standards would be similar to our own, and less chance of corruption affecting grades achieved. Edit: just to note, if you have been following the thread, you would know that there is no resistance to skilled/educated migrants who can support themselves without State support... so lets skip a few rounds of wrangling and deal with non-skilled immigration, refugees, asylum seekers, etc.

Most foreign hospital staff are from south east Asia/china so i am not sure where you are getting this from? Don't see many eastern European doctors/nurses. I know it's mainly the elite but some of them were refugees/asylum seekers here first. Even in the IT department its a lot of Asians. More African doctors are starting to emerge too.

Deleted User wrote: »

As for a better understanding of other cultures, I'd query how much people actually involve themselves in cultural exchange. I've worked professionally in environments with nationally diverse colleagues, and people focus on their work, with external interactions being quite stilted. One of the main issues with the practical application of integration, is how do you involve people in the lives of the native population, when we, as a society, are moving further towards isolating ourselves (social media, or not partying due to the costs involved).

I try my best to. I have always loved learning new languages for example and when I shared a work place with a french colleague I tried my best communicate purely in French (great way to learn). I think for the last point it really is case by case. Some people will not feel as if they are drifting into a more solitary lifestyle and actively try and engage with other people. Its more of a reflection on the entire society as opposed to natives and immigrants i assume?

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

On your point on experienced workers with a comparable skill set being a necessity for an efficient work place , well obviously.. is anyone disagreeing with you there? I would need citation for your last point. Skilled immigrants are very important for this country and one look inside any hospital would tell you why.

Most foreign hospital staff are from south east Asia/china so i am not sure where you are getting this from? Don't see many eastern European doctors/nurses. I know it's mainly the elite but some of them were refugees/asylum seekers here first. Even in the IT department its a lot of Asians. More African doctors are starting to emerge too.

We're exporting a lot of graduates because <new thread required> and importing doctors to replace them.
Sometimes the calibre leaves a lot to be desired.

We'd need a doctor balance to see if we're self sufficient, but I imagine smarter primary care and better traing opportunities would see us most of the say there.

Zookey123

Wibbs wrote: »

The problem is integration Zoo. Some communities integrate and some don't. Some integrate simply because they don't stand out as obviously different to the locals. So a thrid generation Polish guy will integrate more easily than a third generation Sudanese guy. On the other hand others like East Asians don't integrate very much really, yet almost never show up on the anti social radar, or social welfare offices, so integration isn't that informative. The problem is human nature and you can't legislate for that. People tend to prefer being with others like them in outlook, ethnicity and culture. There isn't a single example of a multicultural society on the planet where this doesn't play out.

This only occurs because it is allowed to occur. If you introduce things like faith schools (Muslim only schools) and ethnic minority ghettos where each minority gets their own area they wont integrate because they are being allowed not to. I read a story recently about a young asian male (20s) in england born and bred who couldn't speak the language. That can't be allowed to happen. This creates social divides and sparks racial tension. If immigrants do come here they must go to our schools and speak our language (yes i know its not really our language).

Wibbs wrote: »

Every single one of those studies I've read refer to already existing multicultural nations. Which makes sense. If you have more of demographic A in your company you can sell more goods and services to demographic A. Japan has one of the highest standards of workplace efficiency and they're demographically very monocultural. They are quite capable of importing other cultural stuff into Japan without importing actual people.

Japan is not as mono-cultural as you might think. I was there recently and it is booming with Europeans now. They have English everywhere even the local fruit vendors could speak basic English.

Wibbs wrote: »

If you end up exposed to them. How many Muslim women do you know?

Quite a few actually since I work in health care. Many of our doctors, nurses, cleaning staff, IT are Muslim ladies.

Wibbs wrote: »

And we're back to the knotty problem of integration. Unless you've lived oversaes for a period of time you've likely learned more about other cultures from the TV or internet than through actual contact.

I have spent some time abroad but most of my interactions with people of different cultures happens daily in the hospital as it does for most people working in healthcare.

Wibbs wrote: »

And we're kinda back to exoticism again. Would you say the same of an Asian nation that's 99% Asian, or an African nation? Would they be more interesting with an influx of 10% White Europeans? Particularly unskilled ones? And I agree with you regarding thoughts and ideas. However thoughts and ideas can and do move without importing people. Indeed that's how most thoughts and ideas moved throughout history. Europe got printing, the compass, gunpowder and a few other things from Asia, mostly China, yet if there were a thousand Chinese people in the whole of Europe at those times I'd be surprised. The Irish wear jeans and listen to music watch media and increasingly ape accents that are American and yet how many Americans live here? A couple of thousand? Ditto for English influence(and when there were more of them here that wasn't so great )

Yup.

Zookey123

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

We're exporting a lot of graduates because <new thread required> and importing doctors to replace them.
Sometimes the calibre leaves a lot to be desired.

We'd need a doctor balance to see if we're self sufficient, but I imagine smarter primary care and better training opportunities would see us most of the say there.

The process of becoming a doctor is long and getting into medicine is difficult. Some people choose to study this abroad (England) as it is easier to get in if you have a few quid. But then they realise how terrible the NHS is for junior doctors so they come back here to find things are so much worse. I assume America would attract due to the really high pay from the privatized healthcare system they have but they always have their own board exams and it really isn't easy getting a licence there. But yeah that's a discussion for another thread i believe.

[Deleted User]

Zookey123 wrote: »

Well I don't think there is anything surprising about finding middle ground.

The funny part is the irony of you first dismissing the points made in the thread, and then, repeating back to us, many of the points I have repeatedly made throughout the thread. So, yeah.. definitely funny.

Remarks made to push the poster into a corner as opposed to have a discussion often deviating from the conversation at hand (just scroll around you will see what i mean). Rather than try and win a debate on boards perhaps have an actual discussion? Anyone can respond to me I am just choosing who i reply to.

Ahh, you placed yourself in that corner when you set the limitation.. your own words.. and you're deflecting.

On your point on experienced workers with a comparable skill set being a necessity for an efficient work place , well obviously.. is anyone disagreeing with you there? I would need citation for your last point. Skilled immigrants are very important for this country and one look inside any hospital would tell you why.

Why the need for a citation? Educational qualifications in 3rd world nations are significantly lower in quality (due to lack of funding, lecturers/teachers being shared between majors, a contract approach for teachers, etc), and reliability (due to corruption, bribing of officials for better results, and the faking of degrees). I have previously on two different occasions, linked a variety of reports from Africa, and the M.East relating to this. And as someone who lectures in Asia, I can say, the same is reflected in many Asian countries which are poor, or emerging from poverty.

As for skilled immigrants being important:

Me: "Edit: just to note, if you have been following the thread, you would know that there is no resistance to skilled/educated migrants who can support themselves without State support... so lets skip a few rounds of wrangling and deal with non-skilled immigration, refugees, asylum seekers, etc.".

So, you're feeling the need for a few rounds of wrangling.. Nah. Been there, done that, hoping for something better.

Most foreign hospital staff are from south east Asia/china so i am not sure where you are getting this from? Don't see many eastern European doctors/nurses. I know it's mainly the elite but some of them were refugees/asylum seekers here first. Even in the IT department its a lot of Asians. More African doctors are starting to emerge too.

The numbers of hospital related employment (many of whom are on limited contracts and don't stay long-term) vs actual immigration is tiny. Once again, though, very few, if anyone, has any issue with people who come here with the skills/education to be properly employed, and not needing State supports.

I try my best to. I have always loved learning new languages for example and when I shared a work place with a french colleague I tried my best communicate purely in French (great way to learn). I think for the last point it really is case by case. Some people will not feel as if they are drifting into a more solitary lifestyle and actively try and engage with other people. Its more of a reflection on the entire society as opposed to natives and immigrants i assume?

Ok... so, we're back to mixing immigrants into a broad selection so we can use migrants from comparable (western) nations to validate the overall benefits of multiculturalism? I thought you'd read many of the posts to the thread, and had an understanding of the objections of the posters here.

Let's lay it out a little, since you seem to be willfully missing the primary points.

Nobody has any issue with EU migrants who have the skills/education to be gainfully employed, without needing State supports. ie. people for whom there are jobs, and don't need welfare until jobs become available. Also.. jobs which can provide an income to live decently without governmental supplements.

Few people have any issues with people from non-EU countries who have adequate skills/education to be employed.. bla bla bla (same as above).

In terms of integration, most posters would like to see a greater emphasis on western or comparative cultures (Eastern Europe) as they tend to integrate more easily, due to shared values and history of social development. Whereas people from the M.East or Africa are suspect because there isn't a comparative culture, nor are the values shared, therefore integration is highly questionable. With Asians, integration isn't an issue since they tend to do very well for themselves professionally or in private business, and don't cause many problems.

And since minorities tend to congregate together to form groups, actual interaction between them and natives is rather limited, except for certain points of intersection such as work, sports, and schooling (kids).. but in each of those cases, again, the actual degree of interaction is extremely limited, especially where their own cultures/religions limit such interactions.

I could go on, but I suspect there's little point since your response so far has completely skipped over what posters have contributed and instead repeated the tired comments of past pro-multiculturalism posters..

I'm not trying to dismiss you, but you're not giving me much to work with here. You came on to the thread, calling it an echo chamber, and suggesting that you could present a viable alternative... Grand. Wonderful. However. you haven't. Instead, you've regurgitated many of the points previously discussed (and what's contributed to any kind of echo chamber). So... what is it you're going to argue about multiculturalism, bearing in mind, the points made by posters here?

Dyr

Zookey123 wrote: »

Yeah not sure how un-biased the mods here are. I once got a thread warning for pointing out one of the posters had named themselves after a Nazi military unit.

And its a good job you did, otherwise people might not have noticed the Nazi connotation of the phrase "Das Reich" :rolleyes:

zom

Zookey123 wrote: »

I assume America would attract due to the really high pay

Richest and most powerful country in the history of the world attracting young smart and qualified people from around the world? Surely this is not a surprise to anyone. They multicultural society has nothing to do with it - take off their power and wealth and they as well turn into migrants source not destination.