Aleece2020 wrote: » These far-right parties that want to stop or limit immigration could draw in plenty of voters if they didn't run on an anti-abortion platform. They don't seem to grasp that the values of Islam that people do not want here (no access to abortion. etc.) are the same things they themselves are pushing.
Hamachi wrote: » I agree. For now, there is no viable right-leaning alternative in Ireland. However, the penny will drop in the coming decade. I’m pretty confident that an articulate, savvy politician will rise, agitating for tight immigration controls. They’ll quickly figure out that they need to de-couple this approach from an anti-abortion platform or any desire to return this country to a catholic theocracy. There’s a receptive audience out there waiting for a force like this to emerge in Irish politics. Another point is that many Irish people haven’t yet experienced multiculturalism in their daily lives. Unless you live in places like Ongar, Tyrellstown, or Balbriggan in Dublin or a small number of regional towns like Ballyhaunis, chances are that your home area remains overwhelmingly Irish, with a decent sprinkling of Eastern Europeans. As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalized on the growing sense sense of national unease.
ExMachina1000 wrote: » Iv been in Ongar on a few occasions. A kip. Place feels unsafe
Hamachi wrote: » To be fair, it’s not particularly unsafe. It just has an extraordinarily high % of non-EU migrants, particularly from the Indian subcontinent. I live in the area. Regardless of the census / CSO stats, my eyes tell me that 35%-40% of the Ongar population is non-EU. There’s also one primary school that I’m aware of, in which children of white European background are less than 25% of the school population.
Eric Cartman wrote: » I wouldn't dare allow a female relation to be out alone at night there. Half the town corners have gangs of lads from teens to 30s on any night of the week. It is visibly quite an intimidating place to be in the dark.
Hamachi wrote: » I can’t agree. My wife and a friend of hers regularly jog around the area in the evenings without incident.Having said that, as soon as my kids reach school-going age, my family is out of here.
Eric Cartman wrote: » I know exactly what you mean and why but do indulge the class (pun intended) and explain it for those who will disagree.
zom wrote: » So you are literally against their culture and multiculturalism in Ireland?
Hamachi wrote: » As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalizes on the growing sense of national unease.
seenitall wrote: » What’s wrong with being against a culture that literally sees your sex as the less valuable one, there to be managed, used, bartered or disposed of as suits the stronger sex? Ever heard of FGM, “honour” killings, arranged “marriages” (aka arranged rapes), acid attacks, gang rapes or grooming gangs...? I still can’t believe how so many people remain so willfully blind to the world. I suppose it comes from the privilege of living in places where their wives and daughters don’t have to be extra vigilant walking out, especially at night, not to mention all the other delights of cultural enrichment for us women.
The city in Eastern Europe I come from is one of the safest in the world. As a 15 year old girl, I could walk the length and breadth of it in the middle of the night after a night out, in fact I often did, and nothing ever happened or was going to happen. A million-strong city, mind you. Some areas here, in comparison, may as well be South Central LA. You won’t like this, but IMO the difference is multi-culturalism.
No one wants to go to Eastern Europe, and Eastern Europe is not all that keen on getting culturally enriched, either. And may it long stay that way, as I plan to live out my days there.
seenitall wrote: » as I plan to live out my days there.
statesaver wrote: » klaz, What do you mean by ' cultural corruption ' ? I have never heard of that before.
Deleted User wrote: » Ahh well, most Irish don't travel outside of Europe, except to live in other western countries, and possibly to do a few weeks in an Asian country for an adventure. People are generally focused on themselves and the range of their own experiences, so they're not going to be too interested in the negatives, because we do have a national culture of not borrowing trouble.. so people will continue to ignore the risks until it's in their faces, and even then, seek to avoid acknowledging it. You've still got multiculturalism in Eastern Europe, except it's based on Eastern European nations, the Balkans, former USSR, etc. And I'm calling BS on safety, since I've been to many countries in the area, and they're not wonderfully safe places. The difference is that the risks are known, and can, for the most part, be avoided... with a little sense of awareness (of where you are), and who you're with. But few women will be 'perfectly' safe in many EE cities.. And nowhere in Ireland is like LA.. that's pure drama. Few want to go there now... because you're essentially 20 years behind Ireland. Recent entry into Europe, starting to get investment, and as that happens, the influence of the EU (and other western cultures) will grow, increasing the power of the politicians (both local and foreign), expansion of regulatory bodies, links to international bodies such as the NGOs and you'll eventually find that EE is damn similar to Ireland. Once you see salaries rise, along with services, and the push for social welfare to meet the rising quality of life, most EE countries will evolve naturally towards what Ireland is today... (I have serious hope that Poland won't) Unless, of course, they manage to learn from the mistakes of Europe.. which is definitely possible, but EE has a long history of cultural corruption, and that will factor into how change occurs. I think you're being awfully selective in how you view EE countries, and the problems they currently face, in considering how they might develop in the future.
Cordell wrote: » when it's going to be a big issue? When it's too late to do anything about it?
biko wrote: » Leftist governments have a really really bad track record when it comes to protecting their citizens.
seenitall wrote: » What’s wrong with being against a culture that ...
Cordell wrote: » Don't take this the wrong way, but it looks like you've been here for at least 10 years, but still you don't plan to settle here. If you don't want to really integrate, coming from a similar culture and all that, what hope can there be for non Europeans? I'm an Eastern European immigrant myself, and I'm more concerned about what is happening here rather than hoping it's not happening there.
seenitall wrote: » So... you’re calling BS meaning calling me a liar on my experience of growing up in EE? That’s not very nice of you! Anyways I know where and how I grew up, I still say it was one of the safest places to grow up in general, and walk the city streets at night as a teenager, and I’ve no reason to lie on this platform as I am only joining in for a bit of banter and discussion, no skin of my nose if you don’t believe me.
As far as SC LA, fair enough, if you say so. I suppose nowhere in Ireland is quite Marseille, either (where as a woman I didn’t feel quite safe to walk the main thoroughfare in broad daylight, let alone anything else).
We will see about Eastern Europe. Your argument makes sense, and Time will tell, as they say. EE is corrupt, yes. But it is also generally a rather racist area of the world, certainly going by western standards.
I don’t mean the politicians’ patter here, but rather the rough and ready mentality of the man in the street. I am talking about where I come from specifically, I won’t name it though as I am obviously not being very complimentary in relation to it with saying this, but I would think it is the case for most of EE. I don’t think that kind of environment is where multi-kulti will thrive easily on the ground, especially in certain areas which have seen ethnic conflict in recent past and some of them are still seeing it or its remnants, politically. Not very attractive to your average Afghani fortune-seeker, or at least it will be a no go for him long enough for me to live out my days without worrying about being culturally enriched in my city’s Christmas market or in its Ariana Grande concert.
3DataModem wrote: » Is some people's perception of their quality of life impacted by MCism? Yes Is that sometimes based on fact? Yes Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No
3DataModem wrote: » Should that affect our willingness to embrace MCism and cultural diversity? No
Hamachi wrote: » I As diversity grows and spreads across the country, more people will become familiar with the demographic changes that those of us who live in West Dublin experience daily. Resistance to immigration will inevitably grow and find expression in a politician who capitalizes on the growing sense of national unease.
Wibbs wrote: » Maybe, but going on other multicultural nations it's almost entirely an urban problem and usually specific areas. And as you noted it's already started here. The usual trajectory is areas attract one demographic or the other, with some there are few enough issues, with others more. With the more problematic, the locals start to move away when they get the chance(White flight) and the areas become more and more one demographic and more distant from the host culture. For most of the native population they can essentially ignore it from some distance, doubly so for rural populations.
And again why? Why is this multiculturalism - and it's always of a remarkably narrow kind when being discussed - such a positive when the positives as we've seen on this thread are extremely hard to pin down and the negatives so obvious? I would bought into the diversity stuff years ago, before I looked too deeply at it. It was a handed down belief mostly born of those nations trying to deal with it. The more I look, the more of an empty marketing term it seems to be. Even in the space of this thread. I have been genuinely surprised at how poor the pro diversity argument has turned out to be. It basically boils down to exoticism with a hint of charity. I really thought there would be much better arguments for the politic itself. A holdover from the vague belief I had in it myself.
MikeOxsgreen wrote: » Despite your experience, you cant not be willing to embrace cultural diversity. Think of all the advantages: •different food options • • Jesus, lads, I'm struggling here. What have I missed?
seenitall wrote: » You misunderstood me about Marseille there, klaz. I wasn’t being sarcastic, Ireland is nowhere near that level of multi-culturalism yet. Marseille just popped into my head as an example of a city that certainly doesn’t feel French or European in any way, shape or form. It was a scary experience for me, and this was 20 years ago. I suppose it was my first encounter with the, er, touchy-feely (trying to be polite here) in-your-faceness of the Arabic world.
The time element might have something to do with the safety aspect, ok; not all of the safety aspect is covered by it IMV, but certainly in relation to that subject I could talk about the difference in living under a weakening communist on-its-last-legs system versus living in an ‘in transition’, free economy, free-for-all one. I’ve experienced both, and then something different yet again by living in Ireland. Most things have their benefits and drawbacks, even those dichotomies. But that is really straying far off topic of the thread and is a very complex discussion, so for some other thread.
ETA: In conveying my experience, I was arguing my point. What I don’t expect to be is challenged as a liar just because my experience of living in a certain area of EE doesn’t tally with your one.
Deleted User wrote: » Um, I didn't think you were being sarcastic. I assumed that you were making an actual comparison, suggesting that some places in Ireland would be similar to Marseille or LA. I'll admit my ability to detect sarcasm has disappeared over the last year on boards, so I tend to assume that people are being direct. As for first experiences, I visited Egypt when I was a teen, and I seriously didn't enjoy the experience. Since then, as an adult, I've traveled extensively throughout the M.East, staying just over two months in Iran, and while I've found aspects to the various cultures that I appreciate, I wouldn't be very comfortable with the pervasive aspect of Islam... There's too much of a two-faces to everyone.. with people being open minded until their religious persona kicks in. I've seen similar in China, where people will suddenly switch to a political mindset, and all the years of indoctrination just kick in.. it's creepy. What is IMV? In my view? Well, I spent 6 months living between Moscow and St. Petersburg over a decade ago, and I first went to Russia, almost two decades ago, so I have some understanding of what you're talking about. With China, you can still see the effects of a communist system on the people and society. I didn't call you a liar. I called BS on your statement. Simply stating your opinion is not making an argument. When called upon statements, provide links to establish your POV.. you could have asked me to back up my statements... rather than relying on an emotional response of being offended. (being called a liar). You're simply expecting people to accept your POV.. and in many cases, they will... but you made a comparison between places in Ireland with LA. Come on.. seriously?
seenitall wrote: » IMV (yes, in my view!) “calling BS on someone’s statement” is calling them a liar, you obviously have a different definition, fine; now that you’ve explained it, I accept it’s a misunderstanding. I did accept your point on LA, it wasn’t a good call to mention it anywhere in relation to IRE; however I am still not very likely to provide links to my lived experience, as there very well may not even exist a link to my lived experience; the same way I wouldn’t think to ask you to provide links to your anecdotes of life in China - to me that would seem a weird, OTT and not a very realistic thing to expect, but again, each to their own manner of discussion.
It’s interesting what different people get out of their experiences. For you, it’s the two-facedness that sticks out with Islam. For me, it is the disrespect directed at my sex which takes precedence in any considerations. (No two-facedness there.) Everyone itches where they’ve been bitten I suppose. Although I have to say there is much more than religion at play, it is a cultural thing that grates, I find. Some of the most disrespectful men I’ve met in Ireland, in terms of treatment of women, have been Hindi.
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