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Greenways [greenway map of Ireland in post 1]

dowlingm

So there's been quite a bit of discussion of greenways on threads like Western Rail Corridor (Train & Rail Systems) and I was thinking it might be useful to have a thread which pulls together both technical discussion (for example how greenways can co-exist with adjacent roadways or railways) and news (expansions of existing greenways / announcements of new ones)

According to the Connaught Tribune there are moves on getting on Galway-Clifden along the old rail line alignment. Is there anything else starting to reach firm proposals as opposed to discussion?

MOD EDIT: Fantastic Greenway map of Ireland by riddlinrussell here: https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1HAHB3jpXV7qgrTHgopH4Zl7-ItDHGEPv&ll=53.4320326010536%2C-8.939188105408448&z=7

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Pete_Cavan

A bridge over the new N52 would be very easy, the former trackbed is already raised on one side where the former bridge crossed over the be to bypassed N52. All that would have to be done is build up the greenway at a suitable gradient on the other side and put in a simple bridge. Does anyone know which local Councilors would be any use to take up this issue before design is finalised?

riddlinrussell

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A bridge over the new N52 would be very easy, the former trackbed is already raised on one side where the former bridge crossed over the be to bypassed N52. All that would have to be done is build up the greenway at a suitable gradient on the other side and put in a simple bridge. Does anyone know which local Councilors would be any use to take up this issue before design is finalised?

Seems Cllr Eugene Cassidy is the main driver at Council, at least according to the website. I've dropped him an email about it anyway.

daniel_t1409

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A bridge over the new N52 would be very easy, the former trackbed is already raised on one side where the former bridge crossed over the be to bypassed N52. All that would have to be done is build up the greenway at a suitable gradient on the other side and put in a simple bridge. Does anyone know which local Councilors would be any use to take up this issue before design is finalised?

Something like this?https://www.google.com/maps/@52.2027761,-7.4083266,3a,75y,239.99h,89.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sNAtP6N8d38CsqszRlCTWsg!2e0!5s20170601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

pigtown

Preliminary design work has gone out for tender for the Limerick to Scariff greenway.

It will link to the UL - Limerick city greenway across a restored Black Bridge which was damaged in floods almost a decade ago.

It will then run alongside the long abandoned Erina Canal, and then along publicly owned lands to Killaloe and north to Scariff. I assume it will run along the Shannon headrace for a section of it.

I can't see any obvious route from Killaloe to Scariff though.

Tigerandahalf

Interesting idea here re running a greenway along a new motorway. Not sure if the noise of a motorway would appeal though.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40086260.html

Re that Scariff greenway. I was looking at google maps. I guess this could connect upto Lough Derg and a potential blueway route, kayak upto Portumna and you have the forest walk there plus it doesn't seem too far from Banagher where one of the Offaly greenways could link up.
Is there a walking route around Lough Derg already?

whisky_galore

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Interesting idea here re running a greenway along a new motorway. Not sure if the noise of a motorway would appeal though.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40086260.html

"Prominent Cork solicitor and environmental law expert floated the idea on social media"

"Expert" with no involvement in the project, no background in roads or civil eng, no clue how it can be accommodated sends a tweet.

loyatemu

whisky_galore wrote: »

"Prominent Cork solicitor and environmental law expert floated the idea on social media"

"Expert" with no involvement in the project, no background in roads or civil eng, no clue how it can be accommodated sends a tweet.

every idea has to start somewhere. I assume it wouldn't be right beside the motorway - I don't think it's a terrible idea.

Pete_Cavan

I'm pretty sure that an active travel alternative has to be provided with these projects now anyway. The preferable solution would be away from the new road although that is not always possible. Such a route should link up the towns along the way while the motorway avoids them. I don't know other options there are in this case, perhaps there are still some sections of the old railway north of Charleville, the state has a very large landholding at Doneraile.

[Deleted User]

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Interesting idea here re running a greenway along a new motorway. Not sure if the noise of a motorway would appeal though.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40086260.html

Re that Scariff greenway. I was looking at google maps. I guess this could connect upto Lough Derg and a potential blueway route, kayak upto Portumna and you have the forest walk there plus it doesn't seem too far from Banagher where one of the Offaly greenways could link up.
Is there a walking route around Lough Derg already?

While I've no issue with the idea in principle, there's no way you could apply the term "greenway" to anything like that.

riddlinrussell

Deleted User wrote: »

While I've no issue with the idea in principle, there's no way you could apply the term "greenway" to anything like that.

I've added the proposal to the map as the "C20" route, at present I just have it running alternately along side roads to the current N20 and along the current N20 where the planned Motorway diverges. I would hope this is the sort of thing that could be put in in most places as an M20 'Teaser' project, should take a lot less time to implement than the several years till the M20 is ready to go.

Various locations where it could use the old railway line etc, I'd say a firm route will have to wait until we have a specific plan for the M20 project

Del.Monte

Could they not put the proposed greenway along the trackbed of the former Charleville/Patrickswell railway line and thereby kill two birds with one stone?

riddlinrussell

Del.Monte wrote: »

Could they not put the proposed greenway along the trackbed of the former Charleville/Patrickswell railway line and thereby kill two birds with one stone?

I'd say that's a likely option. Currently I kept to the N20(ish) as it remains to be seen what will happen with the M20 project regarding the rail options.

nilhg

Running a cyclelane next to a motorway isn't an unheard of idea, one I've seen myself is the Mandurah PSP which runs alongside the Kwinana freeway which runs from the south up int Perth in Western Australia.

It's easy to follow on google maps , some riding impressions and photos here

https://waytoomuchcoffee.com/microadventure/cycle-perth/100km-on-perth-bike-path/

Capt'n Midnight

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Interesting idea here re running a greenway along a new motorway. Not sure if the noise of a motorway would appeal though.

If you don't mind noise and no view.

The box sections of the M50 toll bridge are big enough to fit a DART in.

[Deleted User]

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

If you don't mind noise and no view.

True but your focusing on just one set of users.

For example, I live in a motorway connected town, 20ish km from the city where I work. There is no safe route to cycle it.

Given the option of a motorway cycle route or no route for the daily commute, I know which I'd prefer.

In all honesty I truly hope we end up with some kind of cycling infrastructure built soon either alongside an intercity rail line or a new/existing motorway. If not we'll doom the country to thinking every single cycle route outside the cities must be scenic greenways.

hans aus dtschl

Deleted User wrote: »

True but your focusing on just one set of users.

For example, I live in a motorway connected town, 20ish km from the city where I work. There is no safe route to cycle it.

Given the option of a motorway cycle route or no route for the daily commute, I know which I'd prefer.

In all honesty I truly hope we end up with some kind of cycling infrastructure built soon either alongside an intercity rail line or a new/existing motorway. If not we'll doom the country to thinking every single cycle route outside the cities must be scenic greenways.

You're the same user type as me.
Meandering stop/start shared infrastructure won't work for end users like us: we want to get from A to B, and shared-space scenic greenways aren't an appropriate way to do that.

Also, for the record if there was a segregated route parallel to the M20, I'd probably use it.

riddlinrussell

Deleted User wrote: »

True but your focusing on just one set of users.

For example, I live in a motorway connected town, 20ish km from the city where I work. There is no safe route to cycle it.

Given the option of a motorway cycle route or no route for the daily commute, I know which I'd prefer.

In all honesty I truly hope we end up with some kind of cycling infrastructure built soon either alongside an intercity rail line or a new/existing motorway. If not we'll doom the country to thinking every single cycle route outside the cities must be scenic greenways.

I'd be a strong advocate for it along the M20 route, hopefully if successful there it could be rolled out to other routes.

I'd say directly along the Motorway is fine where appropriate, but I'd say in many cases a safe route along 'the old road' is the optimum route for cyclists, connecting all the bypassed towns.

I'd say your maximum limit on 'common' cycle commuters is an hour/hour and a half (Roughly my own cycle commute) so you are looking at 25/30km on a good surface.

The old road is usually fairly direct, but I'd advocate for 'fastest route' that still serves all major towns, with minor routes off to smaller villages as appropriate.

daniel_t1409

Deleted User wrote: »

In all honesty I truly hope we end up with some kind of cycling infrastructure built soon either alongside an intercity rail line or a new/existing motorway. If not we'll doom the country to thinking every single cycle route outside the cities must be scenic greenways.

Yep - we need to focus on greenways/cycleways for commuting as opposed to tourism/leisure. There needs to be direct links from nearby towns to the cycleway. They also need to be more interconnected with other cycleways to create a network rather than one going nowhere just so tourists can see the scenery. We need to drop this 'scenic' obsession. Also we need to drop this carpark nonsense and instead have, like I said, direct links from nearby towns and villages. And promote them as commuting infrastructure.

Zubeneschamali

An advantage of doing it as part of the M20 project is that the budget is massive and CPOs are normal.

The route does not have to be on top of the motorway.

riddlinrussell

daniel_t1409 wrote: »

Yep - we need to focus on greenways/cycleways for commuting as opposed to tourism/leisure. There needs to be direct links from nearby towns to the cycleway. They also need to be more interconnected with other cycleways to create a network rather than one going nowhere just so tourists can see the scenery. We need to drop this 'scenic' obsession. Also we need to drop this carpark nonsense and instead have, like I said, direct links from nearby towns and villages. And promote them as commuting infrastructure.

In fairness, especially as many of them are on Canals/Rail routes the actual full route rarely 'goes nowhere', but I agree the sectional nature of them seems to be focussed on getting the pretty bits done first, sometimes with no thought at all for how you will continue the route from your nice fancy car-park.

I think a fair number of the 'core-routes' can be sold to people under the guise of Tourism, The Grand/Royal/Barrow/Ulster canals, various rail routes. These routes may have been developed at Tourist routes, but they still form a potential backbone for a true network. Once a major route is done the local area focus needs to be on the relatively small costs of linking into the 'trunk' route.

There are 5 or 6 major towns along the Royal Canal, but a number of short branch routes could massively increase the number of smaller towns and villages that can reach the route and therefore connect to larger towns and each other via the main greenway

pigtown

https://lda.ie/state-asset-database/

For those who enjoy imagining new routes the LDA have a handy database of all state owned lands in the country

BrianD3

pigtown wrote: »

https://lda.ie/state-asset-database/

For those who enjoy imagining new routes the LDA have a handy database of all state owned lands in the country

Great link, never knew that map existed (probably very new?)

I checked some former railway land which is unregistered on the PRAI and the LDA map states that it is owned by a local authority.

Also, I checked land where the formation has been ploughed back into a field and there is no sign on the ground of there ever having been a railway at that location - unregistered land on PRAI, owned by a LA on LDA.

Edit: disregard all of the above, I mixed up a former railway with a road:o

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

Could they not put the proposed greenway along the trackbed of the former Charleville/Patrickswell railway line and thereby kill two birds with one stone?

Good luck negotiating with landowners.

Del.Monte

whisky_galore wrote: »

Good luck negotiating with landowners.

The sarcasm in my post was missed too.

serfboard

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Interesting idea here re running a greenway along a new motorway. Not sure if the noise of a motorway would appeal though.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40086260.html

I read down that piece from what I'm guessing is a wannabe politician, until I got to the:

I don’t know the potential costs

And here's another gem from the piece:

The response to his proposal has been enthusiastic online, to put it mildly. People love the idea of a greenway connecting the two biggest cities in Munster.

Good God.

hans aus dtschl

I think calling it a "greenway" might be a mistake and throwing a few people. I don't think anything shadowing the N20/M20 alignment would be a leisure/tourism route. But infrastructure would be good. Like the road itself, very few users would be end-to-end, but a residual need is there.

I have no issues cycling on some of the dual carriageways around, but the N20 is one I go to great lengths to avoid. I think it's worth at least asking "what is the alternate route" for each of the sections from Cork-Mallow, Mallow-Buttevant, Buttevant-Charleville etc. At the moment for some of these sections there is no alternative. That's not just a problem for cyclists and tractors, but also for M20 users, when there's a closure etc.

riddlinrussell

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I think calling it a "greenway" might be a mistake and throwing a few people. I don't think anything shadowing the N20/M20 alignment would be a leisure/tourism route. But infrastructure would be good. Like the road itself, very few users would be end-to-end, but a residual need is there.

I have no issues cycling on some of the dual carriageways around, but the N20 is one I go to great lengths to avoid. I think it's worth at least asking "what is the alternate route" for each of the sections from Cork-Mallow, Mallow-Buttevant, Buttevant-Charleville etc. At the moment for some of these sections there is no alternative. That's not just a problem for cyclists and tractors, but also for M20 users, when there's a closure etc.

I explicitly referred to it as a Cycleway on the map, I envision it more like the Arnhem to Utrecht Cycleway than any Greenway, good provision with junction priority, and, vitally, continuous provision/Dutch quality traffic calming as it passes through towns.

Arnheim-Utrecht Country Road Junctions

Arnheim-Utrecht Town Roundabout

hans aus dtschl

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I explicitly referred to it as a Cycleway on the map, I envision it more like the Arnhem to Utrecht Cycleway than any Greenway, good provision with junction priority, and, vitally, continuous provision/Dutch quality traffic calming as it passes through towns.

Arnheim-Utrecht Country Road Junctions

Arnheim-Utrecht Town Roundabout

Well if that was achievable in Ireland, I would be very happy indeed.

[Deleted User]

The second phase of public consultation for the Galway to Athlone greenway project will take place in January

A report on the first phase of consultation and its related submissions is due to issue in the coming weeks.

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/second-phase-of-public-consultation-for-galway-to-athlone-greenway-to-take-place-in-january/

gjim

Possibly a flawed idea so criticise away but...

As the motorway network has progressed there are a lot of declassified N routes which seem over specced in terms of width these days - surely the huge hard shoulders on a lot of ex-N roads are vastly under-utilised?

Why not narrow the roads by taking away the width of a single hard shoulder and separating from the traffic section by concrete median barrier to provide a safe separated cycle/walk way along these routes? Or if you wanted to be fancy closer to towns and villages, concrete planter boxes or something like that?

Obviously depending on your definition of "greenway", such routes might or might not qualify in terms of scenery but for commuters and communities, they would provide practical and useful safe routes as these road connect population centres.

Of course you would provide connections to scenic/touristic greenways where practical.

A big advantage is that the roads are already fully in public ownership so there would be little or no issues with fighting land-owners or cost for CPOs etc. Besides the median barriers, you'd need to reposition the other road markings so surely it could be done reasonably cheaply.

Tourism benefits are one thing but rural and small town life in Ireland can be very disconnected/dislocated as these roads are just too dangerous to walk or cycle on particularly when visibility is poor in the evening or when it's overcast or raining.

For a large section of the population - outside of the big cities - nearly all mobility has switched to being dependent on cars in the last few decades. It would be great to see this development reversed a bit; maybe cycling to the pub on a black nelly would make a come-back or letting kids safely walk to the nearest town/village to buy sweets or whatever would be a thing again.