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Northern Ireland- a failure 99 years on?

[Deleted User]

Is there another way of looking at it?
It’s still very, very divided, and actually seems to be getting more polarized over the last five years. It’s economy is woeful, very heavily dependent on the public sector.
Unionists are making plans to celebrate its centenary, but there seems to be very little to be happy with, certainly far less than the Republic or the rest of the UK.
No point in arguing about a border poll on this thread, but is there any possible way of looking at NI as a social, political and economic failure?

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downcow

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Again you need to educate yourself on what people mean when they say the British should leave.

I'm sure you already know what it means but you're being purposefully ignorant.

Help me understand. I am british. Should I leave?
If I said the Irish should leave England What would you think if you were Irish living in England?

Hqrry113

I find it hard to believe after all these years people think that when people say things like "brits out" protestants in the north actually believe we are talking about them.

Pretty sure these lads are having me on I'm not going to go on explaining something I'm sure they already know.

downcow

Fann Linn wrote: »

No. They only tried to burn the nationalists/Catholics out of NI.

Fan linn. Do you really believe this was all one way traffic. Do you understand that 1,000s of british were burnt out of their homes in Ireland.
Until the Serbia/Kosovo war, the greatest movement of peoples in Europe since the world wars was the british fleeing the city side in Londonderry.
I never deny the attacks on Irish nationalists but I don’t understand why Irish nationalists cannot own what they visited on their british neighbours in this part of the UK

downcow

Hqrry113 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe after all these years people think that when people say things like "brits out" protestants in the north actually believe we are talking about them.

Pretty sure these lads are having me on I'm not going to go on explaining something I'm sure they already know.

Do you accept I am a Brit? That would be a good starting point

downcow

Hqrry113 wrote: »

I find it hard to believe after all these years people think that when people say things like "brits out" protestants in the north actually believe we are talking about them.

Pretty sure these lads are having me on I'm not going to go on explaining something I'm sure they already know.

I can’t understand, when I say the sky is blue, that people actually believe that I think the sky is blue

Hqrry113

downcow wrote: »

Help me understand. I am british. Should I leave?
If I said the Irish should leave England What would you think if you were Irish living in England?

It's a saying that has been used in Ireland for centuries, before NI was created who do you think that saying refers to? Everyone in Ireland?

Use your head it's not hard to understand what it means.

Fann Linn

downcow wrote: »

Fan linn. Do you really believe this was all one way traffic. Do you understand that 1,000s of british were burnt out of their homes in Ireland.
Until the Serbia/Kosovo war, the greatest movement of peoples in Europe since the world wars was the british fleeing the city side in Londonderry.
I never deny the attacks on Irish nationalists but I don’t understand why Irish nationalists cannot own what they visited on their british neighbours in this part of the UK

Before the Irish govt had to build refugee camps for fleeing nationalists all along the border. Unionists were busily burning out catholics, gerrymndering, discriminating and murdering purely for difference of religion.
Don't take my word for it, or Francies, or McMurphy or MLM. Read some history from Hume or Mallon. I believe they're both regarded as moderates.

downcow

Fann Linn wrote: »

Before the Irish govt had to build refugee camps for fleeing nationalists all along the border. Unionists were busily burning out catholics, gerrymndering, discriminating and murdering purely for difference of religion.
Don't take my word for it, or Francies, or McMurphy or MLM. Read some history from Hume or Mallon. I believe they're both regarded as moderates.

...again fan I am not denying a difficult history but it is rediculous to suggest somehow the Irish have suffered more that the british in ni. We could trade atrocities all night and it would achieve nothing.
Point is you called for the brits to leave and I am a Brit.
I am happy for Irish to stay in ni. And all the new-comers. I want to live in a diverse society. I am not into the ‘ourselves alone’ mentality

Beltby

Or he could ask my sister in laws mother. She was burnt out of her home in Belfast as an 8 year old, and landed in Dublin with her family with nothing but the clothes on their backs. One of her memories of that night was seeing the rows of British army soldiers standing there. She couldn't understand why they weren't preventing people from setting fire to her and her neighbours homes.

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Or he could ask my sister in laws mother. She was burnt out of her home in Belfast as an 8 year old, and landed in Dublin with her family with nothing but the clothes on their backs. One of her memories of that night was seeing the rows of British army soldiers standing there. She couldn't understand why they weren't preventing people from setting fire to her and her neighbours homes.

Ditto for my community. But it doesn’t suit your narrative to admit it.

BonnieSituation

Beltby wrote: »

Or he could ask my sister in laws mother. She was burnt out of her home in Belfast as an 8 year old, and landed in Dublin with her family with nothing but the clothes on their backs. One of her memories of that night was seeing the rows of British army soldiers standing there. She couldn't understand why they weren't preventing people from setting fire to her and her neighbours homes.

That's the sort of thing that should be condemned outright without any qualifier. Just like the murder of innocent people at a football match by the authorities of the State ostensibly of which they were citizens.

Beltby

downcow wrote: »

Ditto for my community. But it doesn’t suit your narrative to admit it.

Did the British army stand by and let people burn you out of your homes?

downcow

Beltby wrote: »

Did the British army stand by and let people burn you out of your homes?

Thankfully I was never burnt out of my home.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

...again fan I am not denying a difficult history but it is rediculous to suggest somehow the Irish have suffered more that the british in ni. We could trade atrocities all night and it would achieve nothing.
Point is you called for the brits to leave and I am a Brit.
I am happy for Irish to stay in ni. And all the new-comers. I want to live in a diverse society. I am not into the ‘ourselves alone’ mentality

Don't remember Nationalists burning protestants out of their homes and them having to run over the water to britain. Don't remember any security services colluding with nationalists to murder a protestant solicitor. Don't why I am pointing this out to you as you'll defend the british security forces and loyalists scum who did these things. On this day 100 years ago, when the british murdered innocent civilians, you'd think you'd have a bit of respect. But hey, enjoy your poppy as the Brits did nothing wrong.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

Thankfully I was never burnt out of my home.

they don't burn out their own, do they. Do you condemn these burnings out or do you deny they happened.

downcow

UDAWINNER wrote: »

Don't remember Nationalists burning protestants out of their homes and them having to run over the water to britain. Don't remember any security services colluding with nationalists to murder a protestant solicitor. Don't why I am pointing this out to you as you'll defend the british security forces and loyalists scum who did these things. On this day 100 years ago, when the british murdered innocent civilians, you'd think you'd have a bit of respect. But hey, enjoy your poppy as the Brits did nothing wrong.

Of course it was wrong. I had lots of neighbours burnt out by the Ira simply because they were Protestant which was equally wrong.
The security services used agents on both sides who killed both sides.
No one has a monopoly on any of this.
I would be surprised if you police force is not using agents currently.

Hqrry113

downcow wrote: »

Of course it was wrong. I had lots of neighbours burnt out by the Ira simply because they were Protestant which was equally wrong.
The security services used agents on both sides who killed both sides.
No one has a monopoly on any of this.
I would be surprised if you police force is not using agents currently.

The security forces used agents on both sides with the end goal being to defeat the IRA.

UDAWINNER

downcow wrote: »

Of course it was wrong. I had lots of neighbours burnt out by the Ira simply because they were Protestant which was equally wrong.
The security services used agents on both sides who killed both sides.
No one has a monopoly on any of this.
I would be surprised if you police force is not using agents currently.

to kill proteststants, i'd be fcucking amazed

downcow

UDAWINNER wrote: »

to kill proteststants, i'd be fcucking amazed

Well be amazed then. One of many examples https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/garda-ira-collusion-story-illustrates-imbalance-legacy-1351461%3famp

BonnieSituation

Interesting details to emanate from that "sectarian" video:

The Examiner wrote:

Kenny had a motivational video put together with historical clips of the Great Famine, 1916 Rising, and Proclamation of Independence, followed by Ray Houghton’s famous goal against England at Euro 88 and David Kelly’s strike at Lansdowne Road in 1995, prior to that friendly being abandoned because of English hooligans.

There was a mock up of ‘1916’ on the Wembley scoreboard at the end followed by an impassioned speech by the Ireland boss in which it can be confirmed Kenny made it clear that he was not anti-English, but felt it was important for the players to understand the significance of the history and the fixture, as well as what the rivalry means.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40087331.html

Wow.Much sectarianism.

downcow

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Interesting details to emanate from that "sectarian" video:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/arid-40087331.html

Wow.Much sectarianism.

Thankfully we do not have a UI or UI football team, therefore it is entirely up to Roi what they do around their game.

The action taken (or rather not taken) demonstrates why a UI or a UI football team would never be a place unionists could be comfortable. Indeed the response by some on here to the antics of Kenny demonstrates that even more starkly.

The content of the video reported is disgusting.
Where is the video and why can it not be released?
Did the investigator not even see the video?
Appears to be an internal one-man investigation?
The players asked if they could support him and then going public on who supported him haha. Obviously any player that wanted to continue playing would be supporting him haha

Above all, very very embarrassing. If this had happened in ni setup then action would have been taken and the video would have been outed. And fans would have been disgusted.

Contrast with ni v Slovakia game, same weekend. A video was made containing Ni sporting heroes and fans contributions and was shown to tv prior to being shown to players pre match.

Hopefully someday pleasing Roi fans will come ahead of the old 1916 nonsense in the heads of the Roi football setup

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If this had happened in ni setup then action would have been taken and the video would have been outed. And fans would have been disgusted.

Sure they would downcow, sure they would

https://twitter.com/piarais91/status/1110290158941814786

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sure they would downcow, sure they would

https://twitter.com/piarais91/status/1110290158941814786

Francie I know you like to deflect but there is no comparison in half a dozen unknowns wearing the shirt of the team singing a disgusting song demonstrating there hate for Catholics, with the entire Roi team and management sitting watching a video demonstrating the hate some of them have for English people.
Also the actions of the ifa and there real fans were diametrically opposed to the actions of fai.

In fairness, I appreciate the many decent Roi supporters who are expressing their absolute disgust and embarrassment with their teams behaviour.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie I know you like to deflect but there is no comparison in half a dozen unknowns wearing the shirt of the team singing a disgusting song demonstrating there hate for Catholics, with the entire Roi team and management sitting watching a video demonstrating the hate some of them have for English people.
Also the actions of the ifa and there real fans were diametrically opposed to the actions of fai.

In fairness, I appreciate the many decent Roi supporters who are expressing their absolute disgust and embarrassment with their teams behaviour.

Making up hate songs is sectarian downcow. The classic definition of it.

Watching the actual history of your country and being proud of what you have overcome is not in the slightest the definition of sectarian.

You really need to grasp this simple point.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Making up hate songs is sectarian downcow. The classic definition of it.

Watching the actual history of your country and being proud of what you have overcome is not in the slightest the definition of sectarian.

You really need to grasp this simple point.

All killings on the original bloody sunday should be unacceptable,not selectively 'ok'depending on your point of view.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

All killings on the original bloody sunday should be unacceptable,not selectively 'ok'depending on your point of view.

So we will see you condemning the pilots of the Spitfires of WW2 for example then Rob?

Or is it ok to have pride in what they achieved?

Beltby

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So we will see you condemning the pilots of the Spitfires of WW2 for example then Rob?

Or is it ok to have pride in what they achieved?

Sure they celebrate king billy and his troops killing catholics with a parade every year. Not only that, they used to ram their parades through catholic areas just to rub it in.

Hqrry113

downcow wrote: »

Francie I know you like to deflect but there is no comparison in half a dozen unknowns wearing the shirt of the team singing a disgusting song demonstrating there hate for Catholics, with the entire Roi team and management sitting watching a video demonstrating the hate some of them have for English people.
Also the actions of the ifa and there real fans were diametrically opposed to the actions of fai.

In fairness, I appreciate the many decent Roi supporters who are expressing their absolute disgust and embarrassment with their teams behaviour.

It's far different singing about a far larger and powerful country which oppressed Ireland for hundreds of years to singing about a minority group which has been discriminated against since the birth of the state.

Hqrry113

NI loyalists are seen around the world as spineless cowards who hide behind the British flag, the only history they have to celebrate is when the greatest power in the world armed and supported them in the oppression of a small part of Ireland.

Then they like to go on as if they're rambo for conquering ulster with the help of the greatest power in the world, even during the troubles they're nothing without their British masters.

Of course though like most Irish people I blame Britain for all of this and not the protestants, they're just a confused people.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So we will see you condemning the pilots of the Spitfires of WW2 for example then Rob?

Or is it ok to have pride in what they achieved?

Your reply suggests you see events on the morning of bloody sunday as acts of war-is that the case?