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M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

BluntGuy

The new M20 motorway inbetween Cork and Limerick. I've heard that there are many people that feel it's rather unnecessary considering the traffic volume.

I personally believe if they're going to upgrade the N20 route, they may as well use the safest long-term solution, which of course is a direct motorway link. But what do you all think?

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niloc1951

Markcheese wrote: »

Are you talking about a rail bridge or tunnel across the harbour ? That's almost a kilometer of water ,
Maybe Less if you build a bridge to hawlbowline,across the navy base and then another bridge to ringaskiddy ,
Anything is possible but .. for how much rail frieght.

I'm not talking about that at all, I was just expressing confusion at the comment by AugustusMinimus in post #6684

Markcheese

niloc1951 wrote: »

???? check out the geography of Cork Harbour

Are you talking about a rail bridge or tunnel across the harbour ? That's almost a kilometer of water ,
Maybe Less if you build a bridge to hawlbowline,across the navy base and then another bridge to ringaskiddy ,
Anything is possible but .. for how much rail frieght.

niloc1951

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Hence why extending the Cork - Cobh line to Ringaskiddy instead of doing the m28 makes no sense either.

???? check out the geography of Cork Harbour

AugustusMinimus

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In a country the size of Ireland with our low population density outside cities rail makes little sense. With logistical JIT requirements loading and unload on to trains to still have to use road transport for the final journey negates the usefulness of rail. It works well on Continental Europe where containerised goods can come into Amsterdam and be transported by rail into large urban centers in the Low Countries, France and Germany, similar with Hamburg or Calais.

It makes no sense to unload loads of Coal, Grain or other bulk goods into Foynes and load them onto a train to unload and deliver 40-50 miles by truck. It similar for containerised goods dropped off to Dublin Port that needs to go to Nenagh. There is no point in loading it on a train to send to Limerick to then load onto a truck to go back to Nenagh.

Hence why extending the Cork - Cobh line to Ringaskiddy instead of doing the m28 makes no sense either.

Sam Russell

Mod: General rail transport does not belong on this thread. Start a new thread if you want to discuss it further. Also rail to Foynes should be on a different thread.

Thank you.

Edit: I have opened a new thread to discuss Rail vs M20

Bass Reeves

Isambard wrote: »

Nenagh has a train line of course, but the point is valid for many other towns.

Even though places Like Nenagh, Thurles, Tipperary town, Charlesville a have train stations it unrealistic to imagine rail will drop off and collect containers in towns like these on a regular basis. How many full containers would towns like these take. Logistics dose not work like that. These would have to come from Limerick at best

Isambard

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In a country the size of Ireland with our low population density outside cities rail makes little sense. With logistical JIT requirements loading and unload on to trains to still have to use road transport for the final journey negates the usefulness of rail. It works well on Continental Europe where containerised goods can come into Amsterdam and be transported by rail into large urban centers in the Low Countries, France and Germany, similar with Hamburg or Calais.

It makes no sense to unload loads of Coal, Grain or other bulk goods into Foynes and load them onto a train to unload and deliver 40-50 miles by truck. It similar for containerised goods dropped off to Dublin Port that needs to go to Nenagh. There is no point in loading it on a train to send to Limerick to then load onto a truck to go back to Nenagh.

Nenagh has a train line of course, but the point is valid for many other towns.

Bass Reeves

niloc1951 wrote: »

Co-sharing rail infrastructure for freight and passenger services has never been a problem and is common throughout the world.
Freight by rail is currently an option here in Ireland, every year, over 9000 road journeys are saved by using rail freight transport in Ireland see here.
With the congestion of Dublin Port becoming more and more of an issue it must be only a matter of time before Foynes, Marino Point and Bell Port are again serviced by rail.
Per tonne/kilometre, freight is by rail has only one-sixth of the carbon footprint of freight by road.

In a country the size of Ireland with our low population density outside cities rail makes little sense. With logistical JIT requirements loading and unload on to trains to still have to use road transport for the final journey negates the usefulness of rail. It works well on Continental Europe where containerised goods can come into Amsterdam and be transported by rail into large urban centers in the Low Countries, France and Germany, similar with Hamburg or Calais.

It makes no sense to unload loads of Coal, Grain or other bulk goods into Foynes and load them onto a train to unload and deliver 40-50 miles by truck. It similar for containerised goods dropped off to Dublin Port that needs to go to Nenagh. There is no point in loading it on a train to send to Limerick to then load onto a truck to go back to Nenagh.

Limerick74

The active travel part of the project getting some traction in the media.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40086260.html

niloc1951

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There's a plan to reopen the Foynes line for freight, so I doubt commuter or greenaway use is on the cards.

Co-sharing rail infrastructure for freight and passenger services has never been a problem and is common throughout the world.
Freight by rail is currently an option here in Ireland, every year, over 9000 road journeys are saved by using rail freight transport in Ireland see here.
With the congestion of Dublin Port becoming more and more of an issue it must be only a matter of time before Foynes, Marino Point and Bell Port are again serviced by rail.
Per tonne/kilometre, freight is by rail has only one-sixth of the carbon footprint of freight by road.

Cookiemunster

pigtown wrote: »

In the unlikely event that a rail option is chosen, I hope that it's a new section linking to the Limerick- Limerick Junction line, leaving the Foynes line free for possible commuter rail/greenway in the future.

At the very least though, direct services should be facilitated at Limerick Junction as well as the new road

There's a plan to reopen the Foynes line for freight, so I doubt commuter or greenaway use is on the cards.

pigtown

In the unlikely event that a rail option is chosen, I hope that it's a new section linking to the Limerick- Limerick Junction line, leaving the Foynes line free for possible commuter rail/greenway in the future.

At the very least though, direct services should be facilitated at Limerick Junction as well as the new road

BelfastVanMan

niloc1951 wrote: »

Why not build it as a dual carriageway or HQDC like a lot of the current M7/M8 was originally built as and then by the magic pen of The Minister make it a Motorway.
Just ask Noel Dempsey, he did it back in 2008 linky

That is Type 1 DC which is exactly what they're (probably) going to build.

niloc1951

Why not build it as a dual carriageway or HQDC like a lot of the current M7/M8 was originally built as and then by the magic pen of The Minister make it a Motorway.
Just ask Noel Dempsey, he did it back in 2008 linky

Isambard

one car breaks down in a live lane and gets rear ended, and there's your saving gone. Stop giving them ideas, motorway all the way

prunudo

None of this 2+2 in the middle nonsense, build it right from the start, proper motorway end to end. If history has thought us anything, skimping on infrastructure is short sighted. Retrofitting costs many times the original savings.

[Deleted User]

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Mary and John, sitting in their kitchen in Kilfinane, Co. Limerick (pop. 778) can ring the cousins abroad and explain to them that there's not one, but two motorways linking them to Cork. Naturally, Cork Airport is delighted with its status as the premier gateway to Ireland's Ancient East and South Limerick.

Funny thing. I knew a John and Mary from Kilfinane. John has now passed, and has no care for any motorway. Thought you might like to know, so you can rest easy.

L1011

Dum_Dum wrote: »

Mary and John, sitting in their kitchen in Kilfinane, Co. Limerick (pop. 778) can ring the cousins abroad and explain to them that there's not one, but two motorways linking them to Cork. Naturally, Cork Airport is delighted with its status as the premier gateway to Ireland's Ancient East and South Limerick.

Interesting variant reductio ad absurdum argument there, combined with cherry-picking and potentially one or two other logical fallacies in one post.

Dum_Dum

Mary and John, sitting in their kitchen in Kilfinane, Co. Limerick (pop. 778) can ring the cousins abroad and explain to them that there's not one, but two motorways linking them to Cork. Naturally, Cork Airport is delighted with its status as the premier gateway to Ireland's Ancient East and South Limerick.

marno21

Dum_Dum wrote: »

When this project is finished there will be 8 lanes of motorway linking Cork City with rural South Limerick.

Indeed. Just like the 16 lanes of motorway from Dublin to rural south Meath.

Sam Russell

Dum_Dum wrote: »

When this project is finished there will be 8 lanes of motorway linking Cork City with rural South Limerick.

Frank McCourt would be delighted to note that the lanes of Limerick are getting recognition at last.

riddlinrussell

Dum_Dum wrote: »

When this project is finished there will be 8 lanes of motorway linking Cork City with rural South Limerick.

*4 lanes and *Cork City and Limerick City, as it will join the existing M20

Dum_Dum

When this project is finished there will be 8 lanes of motorway linking Cork City with rural South Limerick.

marno21

Sam Russell wrote: »

Motorway all the way from Limerick to Cork. No point in cheap skate cutting.

And around Cork. NW and NE quadrants.

riddlinrussell

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

Crazy waste of money. No need for those foreign motorways at all. Just build a dual carriageway.

Well that's the thing I am wondering about, how much money are you saving by making this section dual carriageway, if we assume the two ends are to be Motorway standard junctions (which I don't think anyone here would argue they shouldn't be?) then you are essentially saving the cost of a better safety barrier and a minor additional land take. As I said I would assume in a case like this they would need to 'future-proof' any structures on this section to motorway width, so those are basically your two cost savings, no lower standard junctions or anything and with a potential speed reduction on this section (Unlikely to be observed by many)

marno21

This will be a motorway. As I stated here yesterday, approx 30% of the 2010 route involved upgrades to road projects which were less than 15-20 years old. Penny pinching in the 90s and early 00s resulted in the need to upgrade freshly opened roads. The Croom bypass was open 8 years before a plan to dual it was published. This is crazy stuff.

Build it as motorway for once and for all. This route is HGV heavy and will be with port expansions at Foynes and Ringaskiddy planned. The change in journey dynamics may change HGV routing also. A 2+2 is not a place for heavy HGV traffic either.

Sam Russell

Motorway all the way from Limerick to Cork. No point in cheap skate cutting.

AugustusMinimus

Crazy waste of money. No need for those foreign motorways at all. Just build a dual carriageway.

Sam Russell

niloc1951 wrote: »

It's not unusual to come across changes from motorway to dual-carriageway and vice versa in Europe. They can do it without roundabouts, just signs indicating the change of status and a change to the appropriate speed limits.

I hope they learn that soon.

The transition from M17 to Tuam Bypass could not be achieved without a roundabout. Also the junction of M6/M17/M18 could not be achieved without the biggest roundabout in the country.

Of course it could, but they do not know that.

niloc1951

riddlinrussell wrote: »

........................ its a bad look to have it take 30 years for a motorway between Cork and Limerick and then 'half-ass' it by having potentially two roundabouts in the middle of it.

It's not unusual to come across changes from motorway to dual-carriageway and vice versa in Europe. They can do it without roundabouts, just signs indicating the change of status and a change to the appropriate speed limits.