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Air Corps SAR

roadmaster

Over the last couple of months the air corps have released several videos on social media of them working at sea using the 139's. Are the air corps looking to get back in the SAR business or is it simply just skill training?

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bigmac3

roadmaster wrote: »

Over the last couple of months the air corps have released several videos on social media of them working at sea using the 139's. Are the air corps looking to get back in the SAR business or is it simply just skill training?

Not a chance. It’s allowing them get the hours up to go off and work for CHC.

roadmaster

Jesus that's a bit cynical line of thinking

sparky42

Given the EAS commitment and the issues the AC have had in supporting that, I can't see how they could go into a SAR role without the usual need for a step change in defence spending, I mean unless they are going to be in position to give a 24/7/365 coverage for the tasking then the State will just end up having to pay CHC/whoever gets the next contract to cover the difference anyway.

Also if they were to do, that's at least one more 139 and multiple crews that wouldn't be available for any other tasking...

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

Given the EAS commitment and the issues the AC have had in supporting that, I can't see how they could go into a SAR role without the usual need for a step change in defence spending, I mean unless they are going to be in position to give a 24/7/365 coverage for the tasking then the State will just end up having to pay CHC/whoever gets the next contract to cover the difference anyway.

Also if they were to do, that's at least one more 139 and multiple crews that wouldn't be available for any other tasking...

If funded correctly there's no reason they cant buy extra aircraft, hire extra staff and make the T&Cs for old crew and new that they want to be part of the air corps

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

If funded correctly there's no reason they cant buy extra aircraft, hire extra staff and make the T&Cs for old crew and new that they want to be part of the air corps

Sure, but the contract is up within the next 24 months and the replacement for that needs to be ready to go the next Day. The AC can't grow to that level within that timeframe. Nor are you going to get private staff of CHC to sign on to the AC no matter what T&C's you offer.

It's no different than 20 years ago when the Government of the day looked at the price tag to do SAR right for the nation and decided "no way in hell" are we spending that in Defence, and that was when Bertie and Co were flush with cash. That's why I started the post with saying any such tasking would need the usual point of massive change in spending that just isn't going to come.

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

They haven't been funded correctly since the foundation of the state, why start now?

And by "they" I think we can all agree you mean all of the DF.

Psychlops

roadmaster wrote: »

If funded correctly there's no reason they cant buy extra aircraft, hire extra staff and make the T&Cs for old crew and new that they want to be part of the air corps

That is the problem, they wont get it, you should see some of the comments from what I would guess are ex IAC over on IMO about SAR, it will never fully go back to them, I would guess with how busy EAS is that it is eating the airframes out of the AW139 fleet, that & a huge lack of Crews, sure you can buy all the aircraft & equipment but you need years to get to anywhere near CHC are with regards to skill & experience.

At present CHC are operating 4 bases 24/7/365 with a Crew of 4 flying & 2 ground in any 24hr period so in total that is 24 persons & EAS is daylight only & the Casa's are not available 24/7/365.

If they want to (Govt) be serious about the IAC they need to give it a niche market, personally & from the IAC themselves their main role is support of the Army, so do that, make the IAC a nearly purely rotary force, build on it & invest in it & delopy overseas & go to exercises like "Hot Blade", leave the Military to do Military jobs, SAR needs dedicated personnel 24/7/365 not some Crews on a Casa one day & PC9M the next & then SAR for a day or two.

Have a look:

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?27802-No-Role-for-the-Air-Corps-says-Minister-for-Defence-in-SAR&p=481731&viewfull=1#post481731

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

Sure, but the contract is up within the next 24 months and the replacement for that needs to be ready to go the next Day. The AC can't grow to that level within that timeframe. Nor are you going to get private staff of CHC to sign on to the AC no matter what T&C's you offer.

It's no different than 20 years ago when the Government of the day looked at the price tag to do SAR right for the nation and decided "no way in hell" are we spending that in Defence, and that was when Bertie and Co were flush with cash. That's why I started the post with saying any such tasking would need the usual point of massive change in spending that just isn't going to come.

I fully agree its not going to happen this time around, but with all there videos they are releasing they seam to want to get in to the public mind they can do it. In the long run i think it would be a good idea if the took it over completely.

If you had we say a bigger rotary section and the pilots & crew got to do more tasking such as taking 2/3 year stints in each of the following

Military operations ( Home & Overseas0
HEMS
SAR
Air ambulance
GASU

This would encourage them to stay as i am sure they didn't join to stay on the ground .

roadmaster

Psychlops wrote: »

That is the problem, they wont get it, you should see some of the comments from what I would guess are ex IAC over on IMO about SAR, it will never fully go back to them, I would guess with how busy EAS is that it is eating the airframes out of the AW139 fleet, that & a huge lack of Crews, sure you can buy all the aircraft & equipment but you need years to get to anywhere near CHC are with regards to skill & experience.

At present CHC are operating 4 bases 24/7/365 with a Crew of 4 flying & 2 ground in any 24hr period so in total that is 24 persons & EAS is daylight only & the Casa's are not available 24/7/365.

If they want to (Govt) be serious about the IAC they need to give it a niche market, personally & from the IAC themselves their main role is support of the Army, so do that, make the IAC a nearly purely rotary force, build on it & invest in it & delopy overseas & go to exercises like "Hot Blade", leave the Military to do Military jobs, SAR needs dedicated personnel 24/7/365 not some Crews on a Casa one day & PC9M the next & then SAR for a day or two.

Have a look:

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?27802-No-Role-for-the-Air-Corps-says-Minister-for-Defence-in-SAR&p=481731&viewfull=1#post481731

I just think there is a role there for the air corps fully funded , properly managed and equipped to take a more active role long term. Look at the Canadians with their dedicated CASA SAR force

roadmaster

Dohvolle wrote: »

They haven't been funded correctly since the foundation of the state, why start now?

In fairness they did during the civil war when both sides of the split army tooled up and then a year later when we stopped killing each other the civil servant's said quick hide the check book and they have being doing that ever since very successfully

roadmaster

Dohvolle wrote: »

Most of the heavy equipment used by free state forces during the civil war was borrowed from the British. Most was returned when hostilities ended.

The DOD never miss a trick, it was the same with the Puma in the 80's

Psychlops

roadmaster wrote: »

I just think there is a role there for the air corps fully funded , properly managed and equipped to take a more active role long term. Look at the Canadians with their dedicated CASA SAR force

Honestly I would argue against it, its moving "Military" aircraft & Crews to civvy taskings, the more that happens the more there is no time for working with the Army or Navy.

sparky42

Psychlops wrote: »

Honestly I would argue against it, its moving "Military" aircraft & Crews to civvy taskings, the more that happens the more there is no time for working with the Army or Navy.

I suppose it depends on what you define as fully funded etc... I mean sure if the AC was fully developed to the level of being able to provide full service to the Navy and Army and the Government was willing to add on resources to also build up SAR capabilities that would be something, but if you are talking about the AC with pretty much as is no.

I mean how much training time are they getting with the Army currently?

punchdrunk

it would be a disaster!

sparky42

punchdrunk wrote: »

it would be a disaster!

If the AC was properly spec'd and resourced not really, plenty of other Air Forces do it day in, day out.

punchdrunk

sparky42 wrote: »

If the AC was properly spec'd and resourced not really, plenty of other Air Forces do it day in, day out.

The main reason other Airforces perform SAR at home is to gain the winching/decks/ medical experience needed to perform combat SAR when stationed abroad, better to hone those SAR skills whilst the locals aren't chucking bullets at you. At present it doesn't appear to be on the horizon for the AC anytime soon to send helis abroad supporting the Army (like most other Airforces do)

what's the point in training guys to be soldiers (to shoot, to do section attacks, drill etc) if you're then going to assign them to a unit that's meant to be dedicated to SAR 24/7 where they'll never use those skills? it's a waste of money and its a waste of training resources.

and as for spec'd and resourced?
they've consistently bought the wrong choppers for the last 40 years, starting with returning the Puma.

Larbre34

I'm in two minds about it.

While SAR is great PR and profile for the AC, the capacity of private contractors to offer flexibility and to recruit pilots on the global market as necessary, is something the AC cannot do.

The exponents of this AC role seem to think theres an advantage to the State owning the aircraft long term, but is there really if you end up with a depreciated obselete asset?

Others are saying that the AC could provide all the top cover and ,say, the east coast helicopter service. But what would be the point of fragmenting the service from a backup, coordination and overheads point of view?

To my mind, there are two approaches here. Either, resource the Air Corps fully for SAR, new dedicated helicopters, fixed wing, air stations, blend in the air ambulance service, pilot officers with minimum service contracts - or farm it entirely out to a private contract, even more than it is now, fixed wing assets for top cover, the lot.

There is no economic or systemic argument for a blended service.

punchdrunk

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm in two minds about it.

While SAR is great PR and profile for the AC, the capacity of private contractors to offer flexibility and to recruit pilots on the global market as necessary, is something the AC cannot do.

The exponents of this AC role seem to think theres an advantage to the State owning the aircraft long term, but is there really if you end up with a depreciated obselete asset?

Others are saying that the AC could provide all the top cover and ,say, the east coast helicopter service. But what would be the point of fragmenting the service from a backup, coordination and overheads point of view?

To my mind, there are two approaches here. Either, resource the Air Corps fully for SAR, new dedicated helicopters, fixed wing, air stations, blend in the air ambulance service, pilot officers with minimum service contracts - or farm it entirely out to a private contract, even more than it is now, fixed wing assets for top cover, the lot.

There is no economic or systemic argument for a blended service.

100% agree!

roadmaster

I seen this headline on the business post yesterday but i don't have a subscription to read it. Does any one know what the Taoiseach said about SAR or is it just a journalist adding 2 & 2 together and getting 10?

https://www.businesspost.ie/ireland/air-corps-may-reclaim-search-and-rescue-role-despite-contrary-advice-87c36c25

[Deleted User]

Dohvolle wrote: »

Looking at PQs there seems to be no immediate plans to get the Air Corps back into SAR. There does seem to be a lot of flag waving and a growing online campaign to suggest doing so is obvious and imminent. Naysayers will be shouted down. One vocal senator on twitter suggested/requested/ordered the head of the Irish Coast Guard, currently on Secondment to the UN in Somalia, to remove himself from the discussion as he was potentially creating bias in the tender process, as he did not consider the Air Corps a useable option, and was vocal in this respect.
Even though the Air Corps has not indicated its intention to Tender.

Lots of people on the fringes pulling strings here.

Could the Air Corps respond to the tender? One public body responding to a tender from another public body, possibly from the body that actually funds the AC (Dept Defence)?

That would be a very unusual scenario.

Larbre34

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Could the Air Corps respond to the tender? One public body responding to a tender from another public body, possibly from the body that actually funds the AC (Dept Defence)?

That would be a very unusual scenario.

No, they could not.

Responding to a tender requires commercial competence, ie being a commercial entity with control of its own ability to raise capital, commit to contracts etc.

The Air Corps isn't. In fact, even the Dept of Defence isn't.

ted1

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Could the Air Corps respond to the tender? One public body responding to a tender from another public body, possibly from the body that actually funds the AC (Dept Defence)?

That would be a very unusual scenario.

ESB would regularly reply to tenders from Eirgrid. Semi state but both State bodies.

[Deleted User]

ted1 wrote: »

ESB would regularly reply to tenders from Eirgrid. Semi state but both State bodies.

ESB is a commercial public body. Air Corps is not.

roadmaster

I found this article from 2000 in the independent. The air corps had a shopping list including A109s for Sar

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/up-up-and-away-why-our-air-corps-are-getting-plenty-of-lift-26113001.html

sparky42

Dohvolle wrote: »

All we ended up with was the PC9M. The EC135 did better in trials than the A109M. The PC12 was better than the Caravan. Never heard the C130 thing before.

Yeah, I remember at the time the C130 being floated, but it was DOA even as the article was written from memory.

roadmaster

Back in 2001/02 if the government had gone ahead with buying the S92 would the air corps have fully taken back over SAR or would a company like CHC be still involved? Also if I remember from the media then the air corps wanted the cougar over the S92 does anyone remember why

Larbre34

I expect to be having the same arguments as Don Lavery's article in another 20 years.

roadmaster

Larbre34 wrote: »

I expect to be having the same arguments as Don Lavery's article in another 20 years.

Not just don this article from 2004

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/sos-call-for-air-corps-search-and-rescue-1.1128606?mode=amp#aoh=16092577105418&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

Psychlops

Dohvolle wrote: »

All we ended up with was the PC9M. The EC135 did better in trials than the A109M. The PC12 was better than the Caravan. Never heard the C130 thing before.

C130 Has been pushed/suggested/talked/wished by IAC flying Crews for years, but they only fly on a daily basis what would they know & why would or should they be consulted on what to fly.:rolleyes:

Psychlops

roadmaster wrote: »

Back in 2001/02 if the government had gone ahead with buying the S92 would the air corps have fully taken back over SAR or would a company like CHC be still involved? Also if I remember from the media then the air corps wanted the cougar over the S92 does anyone remember why

I would hope so, time & worldwide experience has shown how more efficient civilian organizations are at this type of thing, they are able to pool from all areas, no pilots in Ireland? Fine look elsewhere etc Look, I am a huge fan of our IAC & champion them whenever possible but SAR is just not for them.

The IAC are the Military Air Arm of the Irish Defence Forces, their main role on Military.ie is support of the Army, not even air defence of the state none of the above is currently being provided to a great level, numbers are leaving at a quick rate, too few airframes to be effective, EAS is provided but on a daylight service only.

With search & rescue to be a truly 24/7/365 system you need to concentrate on SAR & nothing else so you can not be SAR mon-wed & flying the PC9 or PC12 thu-fri, this is what SAR demands, over on IMO ex IAC personel say when the IAC has SAR the helicopter fleet concentrated on this & this alone which meant no aircraft for actual Military Operations.

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?27802-No-Role-for-the-Air-Corps-says-Minister-for-Defence-in-SAR&p=481266&viewfull=1#post481266

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?27802-No-Role-for-the-Air-Corps-says-Minister-for-Defence-in-SAR&p=481599&viewfull=1#post481599

https://forum.irishmilitaryonline.com/showthread.php?27802-No-Role-for-the-Air-Corps-says-Minister-for-Defence-in-SAR&p=481912&viewfull=1#post481912