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Can you change a will ?

StereoSound

Mum died a few months back and we are left with our dad who is mentally ill to take care of him. I have two sisters, one of them doesn't help at all while me and my other sister have to cut down our jobs to part time so we can look after Dad. Eldest sister refuses to take any time off work to help us, she comes up when its convenient for her. She started college to and gave me and my other sister the middle finger, it's effected us a lot and we are under massive stress keeping Dad in the family home and away from nursing home care. The house was left to me and my sisters...

What I want to know is can we have our eldest sister struck off the will somehow so she gets nothing ? She does nothing so she should get nothing. As it stands she is entitled to a 1/3 of the family home, we don't feel she deserves this considering Dad needs 24/7 care and she doesn't contribute. Her excuse is she cannot afford to take time off work, her mental health is suffering blah blah. It's frightfully unfair for us to be doing everything and suffering financially while she skips along with no dip in her income and attends college at the same uninterrupted. She is a 42 year old woman and a gas lighter at the highest degree.

Thanks for any info.

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Pawwed Rig

Shelli2 wrote: »

You can't rent a house that is being used as equity for the fairdeal.
However, a family member can live in it in a caretaker capacity. The rules are very strict on this.

Rent a room?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

She isn't legally obliged ..morally tho ..is another thing.

I don't even think she is morally obliged to assist. I would hate to think my kids were giving up their future because of my health issues.
Some people are not suitable to be a carer. It can be extremely physical and stressful work. I couldn't do it.

Shelli2

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Rent a room?

As far as I know, you can't rent a room either, there can be no monetary profit from the property. Only a person (or persons) in caretaker status can stay there. I've two family members doing just this, my brother and his family stayed in house as caretakers and a cousin and his family staying in his grandparents house as caretaker.

ILoveYourVibes

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Rent a room?

I don't even think she is morally obliged to assist. I would hate to think my kids were giving up their future because of my health issues.
Some people are not suitable to be a carer. It can be extremely physical and stressful work. I couldn't do it.

Some people have no choice though.

qwerty13

It’s a really stressful situation all round - probably including the Dad, and the sister who won’t sign up for caring. And you and the sister acting as carers are clearly up to 90 stress levels.

You are ALL so stressed. I know you seem to believe that a private carer will solve a lot of issues, I highly doubt that though. Your father just doesn’t need a clothes wash / basics. He needs specialist carer, which you’re not equipped to give. I highly suspect that your parents assets wont support that either. Have you checked the hourly cost of a carer?

You need to get out of this situation- as does your father tbh.

Good luck OP, I really feel for you. I genuinely think you are prioritising ‘wish outcome’ as opposed to practicality though.

Tork

What you and your sister are trying to do is very noble but is it sustainable? Your late mother was in a very different position in that she had all the time in the world to look after your father and she could afford it. Already, you and your sister are struggling and it has only been a few months since your mum died. Your mother also had that strong belief that your father should not go into a nursing home. That's fair enough but how realistic is that? You have come to realise how much of a volcano your mother was sitting on and what she went through in order to keep your father at home. If she hadn't died, how long would she really have kept it up for? People say all sorts of things when they start out caring for a loved one but they're often the last to realise that what they're doing is unsustainable. The eyes of a family member aren't always the best means of looking at a situation.

You can't say for sure that your mother wouldn't have done the unthinkable and let him go into a home. And maybe medicating your father would be a good thing for all parties. He might be distressed too but no longer has the tools to deal with that. I have my doubts about how a carer coming into the house will work. Will your father really want a stranger in his house? Could he turn violent and lash out at them? And as has already been pointed out, it isn't cheap at all. Is there enough money to pay for all of this care? If you go down the Fair Deal route, at least there will be a cap on what is committed to your father's care. At the very least, going on a factfinding mission and visiting some homes (post covid) might help you here. Wouldn't it be better to find out for yourself what can be done for your father, rather than leaning heavily on your mother's anecdotes?

LegacyUser

There are a couple of issues here that are all getting lumped in together - yes they are connected but are also not. Your sister not being involved in your fathers care is her choice, we can argue till the cows come home about wither that is something she is morally required to do etc etc but every situation is different. We only have one persons view of events, we don't know what the sisters relationship with her parents was like. My grandmother was in the her 90s and refusing to go into a home but also unable to live on her own anymore. She expected my mother to move in and look after her was my mum is a retired GP and a widow and 3 out 5 siblings were all for this but my mum and one of her sisters knew how abusive my grandmother was towards both of them but treated the others like saints. The others just never saw that side of my granny. I'm not saying the sister has any right to be violent towards her siblings but she also can't be forced to look after another person so your choices on that front OP is to keep informing her of whats happening in case she changes her mind or stop contacting her.

Inheritance is separate from the above OP unless the will specifically states only those that help with end of life care are entitled to a share of the estate then your parents wishes were for all their children to share equally, the inheritance isn't an award for being the best child. If you are covering your fathers bills then I would record all that and claim it as debt from the estate if you can't access the funds before he passes away but you can't claim personal costs because you choose to devout time to looking after him. I'm curious OP has your sister made comments about the will/inheritance or is this just something you've been thinking about given the amount of work you've dedicated to looking your father? Are you rlying on the inheritance to cover yourself OP? Again that's a separate issue for you to deal with, you can't use the excuse of your sister being an ass to take a large share for yourself just because you need the money.

Frankly I would take the advice from this thread and use the house to cover the care cost for your father so he can be looked after to the highest standard by professionals. I understand people wanting care to be kept within the family but the worse he gets the more special care he will require and there comes a point where your doing more harm then good trying to do everything yourselves. We are made to feel guilty for 'abandoning' our elderly in homes but remember people are living much longer now and dealing with more complications as a result of this. When my mum was going to give up her retirement to go look after my granny I told her flat out no. She could spend 5 years + being physically and mentally drained looking after her with little outside help for what in the end? Destroying her relationship with her mother most likely and destroying her own health to the point where she wouldn't be able to enjoy the retirement she had worked so hard for. In the end my granny went into a home, she's 97 now and so much happier since the move.

StereoSound

Application to make my Dad a ward of court has been applied for through the solicitor. We were advised April or May would be the earliest this would come through, he did tell us February before but it seems he was wrong about that.

As regards to the inheritance, I don't really give a damn about that right now. I value my freedom then a piece of the house after it is sold. It just isn't about that at all. My thread started with my older sister throwing all the work on everyone else as she skips along unaffected. If she does nothing then she should get nothing imo, when it comes to her money talks and taking her off the will was a way to possibly shake her up abit so she comes back to the table.
I have been in touch with the health service and if it is a case that I cannot afford to manage Dad or mentally I am just not able for it anymore then he would have to be handed over to the state where they will put him into some sort of an emergency care plan. As it stands I am running out of money trying to run my own house and now my Dads house. I am not going to put myself in a situation where I have to pull the plug on my mortgage because I have to sit here all day with a mentally ill man who I am not qualified to be looking after. That is how I am seeing things right now. I am trying to be kind and realistic at the same time.

Glurrl

StereoSound wrote: »

Application to make my Dad a ward of court has been applied for through the solicitor. We were advised April or May would be the earliest this would come through, he did tell us February before but it seems he was wrong about that.

As regards to the inheritance, I don't really give a damn about that right now. I value my freedom then a piece of the house after it is sold. It just isn't about that at all. My thread started with my older sister throwing all the work on everyone else as she skips along unaffected. If she does nothing then she should get nothing imo, when it comes to her money talks and taking her off the will was a way to possibly shake her up abit so she comes back to the table.
I have been in touch with the health service and if it is a case that I cannot afford to manage Dad or mentally I am just not able for it anymore then he would have to be handed over to the state where they will put him into some sort of an emergency care plan. As it stands I am running out of money trying to run my own house and now my Dads house. I am not going to put myself in a situation where I have to pull the plug on my mortgage because I have to sit here all day with a mentally ill man who I am not qualified to be looking after. That is how I am seeing things right now. I am trying to be kind and realistic at the same time.

Do you want to force your sister to take care of your dad, because that's the choice you personally made and she should do the same?

Its bonkers to be paying for your dads house when you can barely afford your own.

the hedgeman

Glurrl wrote: »

Do you want to force your sister to take care of your dad, because that's the choice you personally made and she should do the same?

Its bonkers to be paying for your dads house when you can barely afford your own.

That sister could be making enquires and arrangements for him for nursing home care as part of the family unit responsibilities to their vulnerable fathers care if she doesn't want to help in home care for him

Tork

OP maybe it's time to throw your hands up in the air and let the public health nurse et al know you cannot look after him any more. The HSE works on the basis that the squeaky wheel gets the most attention. If you and your sister try to plough on as you are, they'll let you. If suddenly neither of you can look after him they'll have to act. The potential for you both the ruin the rest of your lives here is enormous. You need to still have jobs and homes to go to when this is over.

eviltwin

StereoSound wrote: »

Application to make my Dad a ward of court has been applied for through the solicitor. We were advised April or May would be the earliest this would come through, he did tell us February before but it seems he was wrong about that.

As regards to the inheritance, I don't really give a damn about that right now. I value my freedom then a piece of the house after it is sold. It just isn't about that at all. My thread started with my older sister throwing all the work on everyone else as she skips along unaffected. If she does nothing then she should get nothing imo, when it comes to her money talks and taking her off the will was a way to possibly shake her up abit so she comes back to the table.
I have been in touch with the health service and if it is a case that I cannot afford to manage Dad or mentally I am just not able for it anymore then he would have to be handed over to the state where they will put him into some sort of an emergency care plan. As it stands I am running out of money trying to run my own house and now my Dads house. I am not going to put myself in a situation where I have to pull the plug on my mortgage because I have to sit here all day with a mentally ill man who I am not qualified to be looking after. That is how I am seeing things right now. I am trying to be kind and realistic at the same time.

Your sister didn't "throw all the work on everyone else". You choose to take it on. You assumed she would follow suit but she didn't and now you feel angry but you made a choice to do this.

As has been said before, inheritance isn't a reward for taking care of an elderly parent. Its not your decision to decide who gets what after your dads death. Your parents want to share their legacy equally between you, its very arrogant of you to think you can decide to change that just because you are pissed off with your sister.

Getting into a position where you are in danger of falling behind on your mortgage is crazy, I hope you follow the very good advice you have got here and do right by your dad and yourself. Don't feel guilty about not being able to care for him, I think a lot of us underestimate just how hard it is to care for an aging parent. You're not a bad person for letting the professionals take over.

the hedgeman

StereoSound wrote: »

As it stands I am running out of money trying to run my own house and now my Dads house.

Could you move your father into your own house on a temporary basis as you say he needs constant supervision rather than traveling between homes

[Deleted User]

Tork wrote: »

OP maybe it's time to throw your hands up in the air and let the public health nurse et al know you cannot look after him any more. The HSE works on the basis that the squeaky wheel gets the most attention. If you and your sister try to plough on as you are, they'll let you. If suddenly neither of you can look after him they'll have to act. The potential for you both the ruin the rest of your lives here is enormous. You need to still have jobs and homes to go to when this is over.

This is absolutely true. My brother and I were both at our breaking points trying to care for my mother (with dementia) while both of us worked full time, and the health services were no help whatsoever. We were crying out for help to the public health nurse, gp etc, but we couldn't even get 1 hour home help as my brother lived with her. As long as you continue to do it, they will leave you to it and allow you to struggle on.

My mother had a bad fall while alone in the house and had to go into hospital, and at that point, we contacted social work team in the hospital and told them we could not take care of her anymore. They did a "risk assessment" and agreed her needs were too great, and the wheels were put in motion for the fair deal scheme. She moved into full time nursing home care a few weeks later, and it was the best thing we ever did for her, even though we were heartbroken to do it. She was there for over 3 years and did very well there and was very happy, loved having company. I literally have not got a bad word to say about the NH she lived in, or the care she received there. The residents - and their extended family - were genuinely treated like family.

StereoSound

Deleted User wrote: »

This is absolutely true. My brother and I were both at our breaking points trying to care for my mother (with dementia) while both of us worked full time, and the health services were no help whatsoever. We were crying out for help to the public health nurse, gp etc, but we couldn't even get 1 hour home help as my brother lived with her. As long as you continue to do it, they will leave you to it and allow you to struggle on.

My mother had a bad fall while alone in the house and had to go into hospital, and at that point, we contacted social work team in the hospital and told them we could not take care of her anymore. They did a "risk assessment" and agreed her needs were too great, and the wheels were put in motion for the fair deal scheme. She moved into full time nursing home care a few weeks later, and it was the best thing we ever did for her, even though we were heartbroken to do it. She was there for over 3 years and did very well there and was very happy, loved having company. I literally have not got a bad word to say about the NH she lived in, or the care she received there. The residents - and their extended family - were genuinely treated like family.

The fair deal scheme has been mentioned to me, however I was told if applying for it you might have to wait a few months for any move. By the time that happens we will already have ward of court in place and can get a carer into the house for Dad so he can remain in it for the moment at least. When the money mum left to Dad runs out then we could do the fair deal scheme.

[Deleted User]

StereoSound wrote: »

The fair deal scheme has been mentioned to me, however I was told if applying for it you might have to wait a few months for any move. By the time that happens we will already have ward of court in place and can get a carer into the house for Dad so he can remain in it for the moment at least. When the money mum left to Dad runs out then we could do the fair deal scheme.

In my mother's case the application for FDS took 3 weeks from application to approval, and then a few weeks after that to get a place in a NH (they are not always available). But, I had all the paperwork collected and ready to go, as I knew it was an inevitability.

Have you priced the true cost of a private carer? 24 hours a day, 7 days a week at €25 an hour? (Thats what many places charge). Thats 18k a month. Thats what we were quoted per hour when we looked into trying to get someone for a few hours a week.

qwerty13

€27 per hour is what I was quoted, and that was a few years ago, and for the basics. I fear that the price you’d be quoted would be far higher if your father is prone to lashing out or disappearing, and then you may get a refusal to mind him, and carers leaving. Im not trying to depress you. I do wonder if you’ve thought through all of the emotional and financial implications though. A 24/7 carer would be approx 4.5k per week. A nice care home around 1/3 of that price. How long will the money that your mother left (as opposed to the family home) fund either of those options?

Unfortunately there is no easy solution to this. It’s a tough road, trying balance your parents wishes (and believe me, they are very much in the ‘wish’ aspect) versus you actually having a life, you not being consumed by stress, and incurring financial hardship at the very least in the short term.

My opinion/advice stands: apply as quickly as possible for the fair deal scheme, start doing what you can to check out local care homes, keep receipts for every tiny thing in the interim. In order to engage with HSE, you need every scrap of financial information that you can get your hands on, so start doing that now.

I’m sorry to say this, but do NOT take your father into your home. I know you care deeply for him, but from a practical point of view (HSE and your other siblings) he is then being looked after, and you will get zero emotional or practical or financial help. And you’ll still have your house and job to keep up. I’m afraid that way madness lies.

Dee01

StereoSound wrote: »

The fair deal scheme has been mentioned to me, however I was told if applying for it you might have to wait a few months for any move. By the time that happens we will already have ward of court in place and can get a carer into the house for Dad so he can remain in it for the moment at least. When the money mum left to Dad runs out then we could do the fair deal scheme.

So apply for it now and when it is approved, don't take it up if you don't need to. At least the wheels are in motion then and you have more options should you need them. At home care is insanely expensive. Even if you get someone doing it for cash and say half the price of the going rate, it's still about 10k a month. I hope you have read all of the excellent advice in the thread, but based on this update, I don't think you have. Good luck to you OP.

eviltwin

Re home care don’t forget prices quoted are basic rates. You need to increase that for overnights, weekends and holidays.

StereoSound

Dee01 wrote: »

So apply for it now and when it is approved, don't take it up if you don't need to. At least the wheels are in motion then and you have more options should you need them. At home care is insanely expensive. Even if you get someone doing it for cash and say half the price of the going rate, it's still about 10k a month. I hope you have read all of the excellent advice in the thread, but based on this update, I don't think you have. Good luck to you OP.

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. These are obviously company rates. I would be looking for a private individual to come into the house to do this. Who in their right mind would pay 10k a month company rates for caring for someone in their home is beyond me anyway. We would all be pretty fooked if it came to that.

Smee_Again

StereoSound wrote: »

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. These are obviously company rates. I would be looking for a private individual to come into the house to do this. Who in their right mind would pay 10k a month company rates for caring for someone in their home is beyond me anyway. We would all be pretty fooked if it came to that.

This is why people use nursing homes.

beauf

I've gone through this three times with an aunt, then a parent, then an in law and now a second in law.

In every case some of the children ( only child in the case of the aunt) have left the parents care almost wholly to their siblings. This only stops when the child or children doing everything become over whelmed and can't continue or some crisis occurs.

But you can't force people to care for their parents against their will.

As others have said it makes more sense to apply for the fair deal, and go the nursing home route. It means then that your visits with your parent will be focused on quality of life and not trying to do basic care and failing.

Use the house (and any cash) for fair deal, sell it afterwards and live your own life. Content that you did the best you could.

the hedgeman

StereoSound wrote: »

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. These are obviously company rates. I would be looking for a private individual to come into the house to do this. Who in their right mind would pay 10k a month company rates for caring for someone in their home is beyond me anyway. We would all be pretty fooked if it came to that.

Now that you know what the rate is for your home caring is worth,nothing wrong with putting in your claim on his future estate for hours provided already...you have posted already that the house sale proceeds should be between you and your other sibling only as ye have only provided the care so you appreciate that care will cost and people have to be paid and so you do want to be paid by bigger share of eventual house sale price,so stop fooling yourself.

Tork

You might have to have your father medicated before a home carer or care agency will agree to look after him in the first place. And then you'll all have a stranger or a series of strangers in the house. That's not trivial. Throw in the crippling expense of this on top of it all. Is a nursing home where they know how to deal with people like your father really such a terrible option then? At least if you go for Fair Deal you don't have to lose your home, you job or pay an enormous personal price. It also puts a cap on what is to be paid. If your father lives on for several years yet, that could be significant.

Big Bag of Chips

You won't be looking for a private individual. You will be looking for a team of individuals, who have the relevant training. And who you might need to re-roster if someone calls in sick. Or gets called away from work for a family emergency. One person cannot provide 24 hour full time care alone.

And you won't be paying someone to sleep. You'll be paying someone to be on call through the night for your father's needs. Someone who will not be sleeping in their own home, with their own family. Someone who will be expected to work unsociable hours.

You need to stop looking at your dad's estate as "your inheritance" and start looking at it as money he has accumulated throughout his life, to be used by him to make his later years as comfortable as possible. Right now it's his money. It only becomes your inheritance after he dies, and whatever he left behind is divided between you all.

I'd rather inherit nothing from my parents and have their final years be relaxed and easy between us all than inherit a few thousand and have nothing but memories of stress, upset and hard feelings.

[Deleted User]

StereoSound wrote: »

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. These are obviously company rates. I would be looking for a private individual to come into the house to do this. Who in their right mind would pay 10k a month company rates for caring for someone in their home is beyond me anyway. We would all be pretty fooked if it came to that.

Being a carer for an elderly person is a 24/7 role. You would need more then one carer too, to work in shifts.

It's not something you can pay minimum wage for, and not something you should expect someone to work for.

Anyway, you have been given all the facts, and the advice. Its up to you what to do with it now. Best of luck.

tara73

StereoSound wrote: »

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. .

why don't you do it yourself then if it's that easy and it's just sleeping there?

lucalux

Just sleeping there?

What if he wakes up, gets sick, needs an ambulance etc.
It's not just toddle off to bed and forget about the person you're caring for.

My family had a private carer in for nighttime with my grandmother before she went into a home, and she would check on her three times a night while staying over. Not just that, but she sat in with my Nan before sleep, and chatted with her, made her laugh, and allowed her to reminisce on her life as much as she liked. This woman was a godsend for the time we had her, she only took €11 an hour and would often stay on if the HSE carer was late in the mornings.

Duty doesn't make a good carer. Your sister has her choices, regarding your father's care. Your father has his choices regarding HIS money. You have a good grasp of what's involved, now that you're starting to look at the options available to you. So you have your choices.

Every adult should be considering their care plans for later life. It's really irresponsible not to, and a horrible thing to put on your children, when you may not be able to articulate your choices.

lucalux

Just wanted to add, something that doesn't come up much in these conversations I find -

It's a hard thing to manage care in the sense that you end up being a kind of line manager, sorting out rosters.
It's a lot of mental effort on top of everything else. It's not something everyone can manage.

Dee01

StereoSound wrote: »

So I am paying them for each hour they sleep here also ?? Wish someone would pay me 27 Euro per hour I slept.. These are obviously company rates. I would be looking for a private individual to come into the house to do this. Who in their right mind would pay 10k a month company rates for caring for someone in their home is beyond me anyway. We would all be pretty fooked if it came to that.

Ah come on now OP, you know you aren't paying them to sleep. You yourself have eluded to how difficult and stressful the care of your father is becoming. How you and your sister are run ragged and need the help of your other sister as well as an in-home carer.

okiss

The reality is that your other sister is not going to step up and help you out. At the moment you and your sister that are minding him are both tired, stressed and getting into debit doing this.

At this stage you need to start looking into the fair deal scheme. Your father needs more care than you or your sister can give him. The reality is that he is probally getting worse as time goes by. From what you have said about your father he can lash out and you don't want to put him on meds. The reality is that the right meds can help him.

Caring for an adult with mental health issues or even just health issues is hard work both physically and mentally.

When you get the ward of court or the legal things sorted paying for a career for a few hours a days won't work due to the expense. If he is lashing out you won't keep care staff. A nursing home will have qualified staff to deal with him 24/7.

Your choice is stay where you are, keep minding him, run yourself into the ground and probally end up in debit or losing your own home doing this.
Or get the legal work sorted out as soon as possible. Look into the fair deal scheme and get the paperwork together to apply for this. Ask his doctor for advice of the homes in the area as it may be sometime before they are in a position to take him.

From what I understand about the fair deal scheme he pays a percentage of his pension each week. The fair deal will take a percentage of the value of the house each year he is in care up to 3 years and is capped at certain percentage after 3 years. If you father lives for more than 3 years after he goes into the nursing home you will still be left with a good % of your inheritance once the house is sold after his death.

I know several people that had to do this. Once they had their mother or father in the care home they were not tired and stressed but they could visit their parents and see that they were being well looked after.