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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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mfceiling

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

Under Les Kiss, you'd have gotten an Ulster try-out.

Playing loose head this week and full back the week after.

[Deleted User]

molloyjh wrote: »

So that people can only play in the country of their birth or where they have ancestry? What about people who move to a country as kids and come through the system in that country? Many Tuilagi for example was born in Samoa and has no English ancestry (to my knowledge at least) but he moved to England and came through their set up. He qualified on residency grounds. So how do you account for those cases? Do you say that anyone who started professional rugby in other countries are excluded?

Tuilagi moved to England age 12.

I don't think that anyone had him pencilled in as a project player at that point.

I think something like up age 18 is reasonable in terms of not switching playing nationality after that

a player could go play rugby wherever you want for a club but not represent internationally for a different country without heritage / be targeted purely as a project player

recent documentary out

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/enormous-reaction-to-compelling-new-documentary-highlighting-exploitation-of-pacific-island-players-leo/

A documentary produced by Pacific Rugby Welfare Dan Leo investigating the state of rugby in Samoa, Tonga and Fiji has evoked an enormous reaction online and inspired a call for change in how the game is governed by World Rugby.

Oceans Apart: Greed, Betrayal and Pacific Rugby – a production that was three years in the making – takes aim at World Rugby, highlighting the injustices that exist in the game and the exploitation of Pacific Island players. It also exposed the scandals and corruption that officials in Fiji, Samoa and Tonga have been involved in.

kingofthekong

ionadnapokot wrote: »

This is how I would rate Irelands FB options
Obvs Keenan & Stockdale are ahead of Lowry selection wise. I just rate Lowry higher.

1. Larmour
2. Lowry
3. Keenan
4. Daly
5. Jimmy O'B
6. Stephen Fitgerald
7. Stockdale
8. Addsion*

Discounting Addison really because of his injury profile.

edit
ive not seen any of Matt Gallagher

Lowry has some great skills but his height is gonna hurt him in the coaches eyes when contesting ball in the air , also Daly had some good performances but nothing like what JOB has done recently , JOB has shown a quality kicking game and grubbered balls for tries, cleaned up some very slippery situations and his ability to create opportunities for others is very good - he’s a better player than Daly imo

kingofthekong

kingofthekong wrote: »

Lowry has some great skills but his height is gonna hurt him in the coaches eyes when contesting ball in the air , also Daly had some good performances but nothing like what JOB has done recently , JOB has shown a quality kicking game and grubbered balls for tries, cleaned up some very slippery situations and his ability to create opportunities for others is very good - he’s a better player than Daly imo

Stephen Fitzgeral isn’t within an asses roar over ever being anywhere near the Irish 15 jersey let alone ahead of stockdale

Niallof9

Michael Lowry is the same height as Cheslin Kolbe. He needs to bulk up a wee bit but his height should never be an issue. Anyway his future is probably at 10. If there's no room for outstanding runners like him in Irish rugby we might as well give it all up.

accensi0n

Niallof9 wrote: »

. If there's no room for outstanding runners like him in Irish rugby we might as well give it all up.

Larmour..

UAEguy2020

kingofthekong wrote: »

Lowry has some great skills but his height is gonna hurt him in the coaches eyes when contesting ball in the air , also Daly had some good performances but nothing like what JOB has done recently , JOB has shown a quality kicking game and grubbered balls for tries, cleaned up some very slippery situations and his ability to create opportunities for others is very good - he’s a better player than Daly imo

I honestly wouldn’t be against JOB starting at 15 in Cardiff in Feb. He has every quality I look for in a 15, a strong boot and an ability to be a play maker.

thomond2006

The likes of JOB and Craig Casey need to prove themselves in games where their team isn't utterly dominant around them. Until then, I'd pull the brakes on Ireland talk, or at least Ireland talk for games against 6N teams at Ireland's level.

Brief_Lives

Niallof9 wrote: »

Michael Lowry is the same height as Cheslin Kolbe. He needs to bulk up a wee bit but his height should never be an issue. Anyway his future is probably at 10. If there's no room for outstanding runners like him in Irish rugby we might as well give it all up.

this is all I hear everytime...

ionadnapóca

kingofthekong wrote: »

Lowry has some great skills but his height is gonna hurt him in the coaches eyes when contesting ball in the air , also Daly had some good performances but nothing like what JOB has done recently , JOB has shown a quality kicking game and grubbered balls for tries, cleaned up some very slippery situations and his ability to create opportunities for others is very good - he’s a better player than Daly imo

In some coaches eyes yes
From what ive seen of him he has an excellent leap and good hands in the air.
Negates his height somewhat. Also extremely brave in the air and tackle.
When you take that into account along with his counter attack and kicking skills i feel he is the one Ulster and Ireland should be investing game time in at FB. Not Stockdale. Lowry only 22.

JOB has looked vgood recently. At almost 24 he hasn't really played many high pressure games.
Not sure he going to play FB ahead of both Larmour and Keenan at Leinster
He looks promising along with Daly - Will he start ahead of Haley at Munster?
edit: i think he should because Daly looks solid and made for FB. Seen Haley make to many error's at critical points in the past

re: Fitzgerald...i know! i put him in because i like him.
Its clear Ireland have many options ahead of him & so do Connacht

ionadnapóca

thomond2006 wrote: »

The likes of JOB and Craig Casey need to prove themselves in games where their team isn't utterly dominant around them. Until then, I'd pull the brakes on Ireland talk, or at least Ireland talk for games against 6N teams at Ireland's level.

Once more on Casey. He's ready. He's not the finished article. But he's ready for Georgia at the very least.

kingofthekong

Niallof9 wrote: »

Michael Lowry is the same height as Cheslin Kolbe. He needs to bulk up a wee bit but his height should never be an issue. Anyway his future is probably at 10. If there's no room for outstanding runners like him in Irish rugby we might as well give it all up.

Yes but Cheslin Kolbe adds a lot more then Lowry does, what Cheslin Kolbe lacks for in height he brings a ridiculous attacking threat and power in the tackle,

If Lowry can grow and replicate that level of ability then his height wont matter but thats a big ask, not impossible but very difficult to reach a Kolbe level of attacking threat,

What i think he has in his favour over Kolbe is a better kicking game which is good

kingofthekong

thomond2006 wrote: »

The likes of JOB and Craig Casey need to prove themselves in games where their team isn't utterly dominant around them. Until then, I'd pull the brakes on Ireland talk, or at least Ireland talk for games against 6N teams at Ireland's level.

I see what your saying but that also extremely unfair, because at the rate Leinster go when are they likely to not be dominant?

Its not really a barometer of if a player can step up or not, Daly and JOB have both shown qualities which should have them in the frame and definitley exposure to an Irish jersey very shortly

ionadnapóca

kingofthekong wrote: »

Yes but Cheslin Kolbe adds a lot more then Lowry does, what Cheslin Kolbe lacks for in height he brings a ridiculous attacking threat and power in the tackle,

If Lowry can grow and replicate that level of ability then his height wont matter but thats a big ask, not impossible but very difficult to reach a Kolbe level of attacking threat,

What i think he has in his favour over Kolbe is a better kicking game which is good

Kolbe is a freak
McKenzie is the player Lowry can realistically aspire to become
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltm0k-lnv2s

Niallof9

kingofthekong wrote: »

Yes but Cheslin Kolbe adds a lot more then Lowry does, what Cheslin Kolbe lacks for in height he brings a ridiculous attacking threat and power in the tackle,

If Lowry can grow and replicate that level of ability then his height wont matter but thats a big ask, not impossible but very difficult to reach a Kolbe level of attacking threat,

What i think he has in his favour over Kolbe is a better kicking game which is good

Kolbe is 27 and it took him a while to get there. Lowry is what 22? And like i said he'll probably end up at ten. We need to start trusting outstanding runners in this country. Being 5,7 doesn't matter a jot.

kingofthekong

ionadnapokot wrote: »

In some coaches eyes yes
From what ive seen of him he has an excellent leap and good hands in the air.
Negates his height somewhat. Also extremely brave in the air and tackle.
When you take that into account along with his counter attack and kicking skills i feel he is the one Ulster and Ireland should be investing game time in at FB. Not Stockdale. Lowry only 22.

JOB has looked vgood recently. At almost 24 he hasn't really played many high pressure games.
Not sure he going to play FB ahead of both Larmour and Keenan at Leinster
He looks promising along with Daly - Will he start ahead of Haley at Munster?
edit: i think he should because Daly looks solid and made for FB. Seen Haley make to many error's at critical points in the past

re: Fitzgerald...i know! i put him in because i like him.
Its clear Ireland have many options ahead of him & so do Connacht

Ye how Lowry goes will be interesting, but sadly if hes 50/50 with another player for the spot the other guy might get it based soley on size which is unfair but coaches tend to trend that way.

Daly and JOB should both be getting some gamtime soon,

I actually dont rate Haley that highly I think hes pretty average

Niallof9

Craig Casey is ready enough. Farrell doesn't seem to share your fears seeing he's had him involved already. We're not in the days of Eddie like.

kingofthekong

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Kolbe is a freak
McKenzie is the player Lowry can realistically aspire to become
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ltm0k-lnv2s

Good point forgot about mckenzie, Mckenzie is a very powerful guy for his size though and a very strong tackler

kingofthekong

Niallof9 wrote: »

Kolbe is 27 and it took him a while to get there. Lowry is what 22? And like i said he'll probably end up at ten. We need to start trusting outstanding runners in this country. Being 5,7 doesn't matter a jot.

If Lowrys attacking threat is greater then his defensive weaknesses then the coaches will select him, if not they wont..

ionadnapóca

kingofthekong wrote: »

Good point forgot about mckenzie, Mckenzie is a very powerful guy for his size though and a very strong tackler

Here is his debut v Argentina.
He was just 21. I think he played most of his games at 10 for Chiefs that season
Comes on and plays FB
you can see how raw he is defensively but NZ clearly were willing to invest time on a young special talent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yUiN3y3ymo

I believe Lowry and Larmour are Irelands unique talents that should be afforded as much time as possible at provincial level to grow into that FB role.

Why cant Farrell select Lowry for Georgia?
Even at No.23
I fail to see what negatives outweigh the positives.

bilston

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Here is his debut v Argentina.
He was just 21. I think he played most of his games at 10 for Chiefs that season
Comes on and plays FB
you can see how raw he is defensively but NZ clearly were willing to invest time on a young special talent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yUiN3y3ymo

I believe Lowry and Larmour are Irelands unique talents that should be afforded as much time as possible at provincial level to grow into that FB role.

Why cant Farrell select Lowry for Georgia?
Even at No.23
I fail to see what negatives outweigh the positives.

He might select Lowry for Georgia as I expect he will add a few players. But he has never been in a training camp, plus you'd expect Daly will start at 15. Although with Sexton injured there is an advantage to having Lowry on the bench. But I think it would be very hard for him to come into camp for the first time 5 days before a match so I think it's unlikely.

The concern for me with Lowry is that Farrell and Catt just take the view he is too small and don't even give him a chance. That would be a mistake IMO. He might find the step up too much physically, but he might also be the electric impact player Ireland need. But he should get a chance.

I don't know where (if anywhere) we tour next summer, but with the Lions, it seems a good chance for players like Lowry to get their shot.

The Lost Sheep

bilston wrote: »

He might select Lowry for Georgia as I expect he will add a few players. But he has never been in a training camp, plus you'd expect Daly will start at 15. Although with Sexton injured there is an advantage to having Lowry on the bench. But I think it would be very hard for him to come into camp for the first time 5 days before a match so I think it's unlikely.

The concern for me with Lowry is that Farrell and Catt just take the view he is too small and don't even give him a chance. That would be a mistake IMO. He might find the step up too much physically, but he might also be the electric impact player Ireland need. But he should get a chance.

I don't know where (if anywhere) we tour next summer, but with the Lions, it seems a good chance for players like Lowry to get their shot.

I think we're due to play in the pacific islands. Nothing confirmed yet though.
the confirmed games are England in North America and they also will play Scotland in America on the trip. Wales in Australia. Scotland in Argentina. Italy in New Zealand

dregin

thomond2006 wrote: »

The likes of JOB and Craig Casey need to prove themselves in games where their team isn't utterly dominant around them. Until then, I'd pull the brakes on Ireland talk, or at least Ireland talk for games against 6N teams at Ireland's level.

So what you're saying is Jimmy O'Brien should never get a call up to the Ireland squad? Fake news.

Paul Smeenus

bilston wrote: »

He might select Lowry for Georgia as I expect he will add a few players. But he has never been in a training camp, plus you'd expect Daly will start at 15. Although with Sexton injured there is an advantage to having Lowry on the bench. But I think it would be very hard for him to come into camp for the first time 5 days before a match so I think it's unlikely.

The concern for me with Lowry is that Farrell and Catt just take the view he is too small and don't even give him a chance. That would be a mistake IMO. He might find the step up too much physically, but he might also be the electric impact player Ireland need. But he should get a chance.

I don't know where (if anywhere) we tour next summer, but with the Lions, it seems a good chance for players like Lowry to get their shot.

He's got a good tackle technique and good positional sense. His dive on the ball at our line against Zebre was smart, decisive and ballsy. He's not going to flatten many in the tackle (apart from Nakawara - https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1084933001698594817?s=20 ) but he's not a liability in any way.

I was initially pretty sanguine about him being too small, but his upside is massive, and I haven't seen any actual real - rather than presumed - defensive weakness due to his size.

briandebum

The fullback position is certainly an interesting one for Ireland.

I would say that the most dynamic back 3 players we could field in the world cup are Lowe-Stockdale-Larmour. I could be wrong but I think Larmour will prove to be a better winger than fullback. So in that context, continuing with Stockdale at fullback would be the way to go, hope that with added experience he grows into the position and accept there will be mistakes along the way.

I will say also that JOB was exceptional vs Edinburgh, but unfortunately that was more of a training match than a full blooded affair, so tough to really judge. I think we will have to wait for the Interpros and Champions Cup games for more information on a lot of these young guys (Ulster's young backs are spicy, Gallagher & Daly for Munster) as the Pro14 doesn't seem to be challenging 3 of the Irish provinces.

bilston

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

He's got a good tackle technique and good positional sense. His dive on the ball at our line against Zebre was smart, decisive and ballsy. He's not going to flatten many in the tackle (apart from Nakawara - https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1084933001698594817?s=20 ) but he's not a liability in any way.

I was initially pretty sanguine about him being too small, but his upside is massive, and I haven't seen any actual real - rather than presumed - defensive weakness due to his size.

You don't need to convince me!

Squidgy Black

I see a lot of people mentioning Gallagher, but he only has 3 caps or something since he's arrived, is that due to injury or just failing to break through past the likes of Daly/Haley? Would've expected given his cameos for Saracens he'd have played a bigger part so far.

Clegg

thomond2006 wrote: »

The likes of JOB and Craig Casey need to prove themselves in games where their team isn't utterly dominant around them. Until then, I'd pull the brakes on Ireland talk, or at least Ireland talk for games against 6N teams at Ireland's level.

I think if a player is good enough it doesn't really matter if they haven't played against top level opposition yet. Hugo Keenan had only started Pro 14 games against middling opposition before being thrown into Leinster's knockout games in Europe and the league. And off a very small sample of games he was thrown into the Ireland starting side. Hasn't looked out of place at any level.

thomond2006

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are not good enough. I'm saying the kind of "straight into the Irish 23" kind of talk is premature right now.

The Lost Sheep

Clegg wrote: »

I think if a player is good enough it doesn't really matter if they haven't played against top level opposition yet. Hugo Keenan had only started Pro 14 games against middling opposition before being thrown into Leinster's knockout games in Europe and the league. And off a very small sample of games he was thrown into the Ireland starting side. Hasn't looked out of place at any level.

Thats fair enough but there has been plenty who've played and performed well much longer for other provinces at higher levels yet dont ever get a shot.
Id totally agree with thomond on some of the talk being very premature right now