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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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[Deleted User]

sydthebeat wrote: »

of course i know that

im just using glassos bias back on him:

hes the one who brought up the foreign born aspect..not me

I was simply making the point that in addition to the (1/3) 5 pure project players starting that with 3 subs coming on, who have Irish heritage - one Australian-born came here at 19, South African-born came here at 22 and English-born came here at 24 and that you could conceivably then have more than 50% of the team on the pitch of effective rugby imports (of pure project players 5 and 3 other)

trying to latch onto the purely foreign-born aspect is a failed tangent on your part

again if this was Eng, Wales or Scotland fielding this team makeup on the weekend there most certainly would be comment here.

It's hypocritical for anyone to pretend otherwise

Dog Botherer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To be honest, I've accepted the project player thing but it has never sat right with me. I consider somebody to be from a country when they grew up there. That's my baseline. So when I see someone in an Irish jersey with a blatant South African accent, it doesn't feel right. I've accepted it and I've gotten over it as my want for Ireland to succeed is greater.

I love James Lowe. He's such a smiley, gregarious character but the thought of him lining out in green simply didn't feel right. He's clearly a Kiwi. The accent means a lot to me. I'll get over it fairly quickly like I did with the other clearly non-irish big characters such as Stander or Aki.

People are going on about xenophobia, but in my humble opinion, international sport is xenophobic at it's core. You are drawing up a team traditionally by an immutable birth-right. It's an excuse to hate on the English/Welsh/Whoever and push blatant nationalism. I'm glad an end is being put to this to a degree with it being switched to 5 years but frankly it should be 10 years. Then it would truly be only those who grew up in the country, who will have an accent from that country. People are claiming there is no issue here yet they agree that it's a good idea that it been pushed out to 5 years. So which is it, is naturalization an issue or not? 3 or 5 years shouldn't make a difference in principle.

I think the granny rule is even worse. Those people didn't even commit the 3 or 5 years to the country first. Michael Bent being parachuted in comes to mind.

Genuinely not trying to be funny here, but are you seriously suggesting that we should decide who plays for Ireland based on who speaks English (a foreign language) with the strongest Irish accent?

This is why this debate is so stupid. You have perfectly sensible people saying insane things. Nationality is extremely fluid, always has been. Just leave it at 5 years/passport/granny get on with it.

Would be fascinated to hear what some of these people make of the Lebanese Rugby League team.

The Lost Sheep

Dog Botherer wrote: »

France have a ****ing as academy in Fiji purposely created to funnel Fijian kids into the French setup!

Thats not the union its Brive, Clermont, maybe a few other clubs. Slgihtly different but still not good.

Deleted User wrote: »

To be honest, I've accepted the project player thing but it has never sat right with me. I consider somebody to be from a country when they grew up there. That's my baseline. So when I see someone in an Irish jersey with a blatant South African accent, it doesn't feel right. I've accepted it and I've gotten over it as my want for Ireland to succeed is greater.

I love James Lowe. He's such a smiley, gregarious character but the thought of him lining out in green simply didn't feel right. He's clearly a Kiwi. The accent means a lot to me. I'll get over it fairly quickly like I did with the other clearly non-irish big characters such as Stander or Aki.

People are going on about xenophobia, but in my humble opinion, international sport is xenophobic at it's core. You are drawing up a team traditionally by an immutable birth-right. It's an excuse to hate on the English/Welsh/Whoever and push blatant nationalism. I'm glad an end is being put to this to a degree with it being switched to 5 years but frankly it should be 10 years. Then it would truly be only those who grew up in the country, who will have an accent from that country. People are claiming there is no issue here yet they agree that it's a good idea that it been pushed out to 5 years. So which is it, is naturalization an issue or not? 3 or 5 years shouldn't make a difference in principle.

I think the granny rule is even worse. Those people didn't even commit the 3 or 5 years to the country first. Michael Bent being parachuted in comes to mind.

Having an accent is nonsense. You could be born in a country, grow up elsewhere/ be born in another country to irish parents and have different accent. It shouldnt be 10 years as the world is global and you are stopping people who move for very genuine reasons ever from representing their new adopted country.

glasso wrote: »

I was simply making the point that in addition to the (1/3) 5 pure project players starting that with 3 subs coming on, who have Irish heritage - one Australian-born came here at 19, South African-born came here at 22 and English-born came here at 24 and that you could conceivably then have more than 50% of the team on the pitch of effective rugby imports (of pure project players 5 and 3 other)

trying to latch onto the purely foreign-born aspect is a failed tangent on your part

again if this was Eng, Wales or Scotland fielding this team there most certainly would be comment here.

It's hypocritical for anyone to pretend otherwise

If you are playing with the country of your parents, grandparents then you are not any form of import. You have heritage, history. That cant be compared to people who solely qualify through a residency period.

ionadnapóca

ENGLAND: Daly; Joseph, Lawrence, Slade, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Dunn, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Robson, Ford, Malins.

Dog Botherer

CJ Stander rocked up to Munster with barely a word of English and worked his way up from AIL level to playing for Ireland in a World Cup and being one of our most important leaders and players.

To some absolute headcases this is a source of national shame. Deeply diseased levels of thinking.

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

CJ Stander rocked up to Munster with barely a word of English and worked his way up from AIL level to playing for Ireland in a World Cup and being one of our most important leaders and players.

To some absolute headcases this is a source of national shame. Deeply diseased levels of thinking.

What a crock

Nobody said that

Deeply diseased twisting of words attempt

pickarooney

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

It does worry me the level of xenophobia displayed among people any time the project player angle is brought up. Ireland can be a worryingly intolerant place.

And people just get in such denial about it.

"Just because I want the national team represented solely by birthright doesn't make me a xenophobe"

"How am I being xenophobic? I have no problem with them playing for the province, I just think the Irish team should be for Irish people"

"It's a disgrace to the grassroots clubs that a foreign born player can just jump in ahead of someone and play when they have no connection to Ireland"

These are all quotes I've had with people denying xenophobia while actually giving a pretty iron clad example of it.

We are now a global society - this pandemic proves just how global.

I think peoples notions of who can represent their nation needs to evolve

The whole concept of a national team is xenophobic. The only thing that separates international from club rugby is an arbitrary rule about who is allowed play for the former based on where they or their ancestors were born. With project players this is waived. It's not an entirely bizarre opinion to want the team you support based on where you were born to pick players who were also born there.

Dog Botherer

glasso wrote: »

What a crock

Nobody said that

Deeply diseased twisting of words attempt

It was just a statement, not aimed at anyone in particular.

Seems to have touched a nerve though. Interesting.

[Deleted User]

https://www.the42.ie/eddie-jones-team-ireland-5271825-Nov2020/

The England team is out, I just don't think we can live with them particularly up front. Sometimes you're just overmatched.

sydthebeat

ionadnapokot wrote: »

ENGLAND: Daly; Joseph, Lawrence, Slade, May; Farrell (capt), Youngs; M Vunipola, George, Sinckler, Itoje, Launchbury, Curry, Underhill, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Dunn, Genge, Stuart, Hill, Earl, Robson, Ford, Malins.

thats is a very strong and settled england team. Thats a ridiculously strong back row, even if Billy V isnt playing to his potential.

i think the only way we can this is to rattle Farrell right from the off, get him to stand deeper away from contact.
They will kick the leather off the ball and will play the percentages on the aerial contest.

Keenan will need to have the game of his life so far imo.

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Genuinely not trying to be funny here, but are you seriously suggesting that we should decide who plays for Ireland based on who speaks English (a foreign language) with the strongest Irish accent?

This is why this debate is so stupid. You have perfectly sensible people saying insane things. Nationality is extremely fluid, always has been. Just leave it at 5 years/passport/granny get on with it.

Would be fascinated to hear what some of these people make of the Lebanese Rugby League team.

No of course I'm not suggesting that. You're being willfully obtuse. In my utopia, players would represent the country they grew up in. Accent is a by-product of where people grow up.

Dog Botherer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No of course I'm not suggesting that. You're being willfully obtuse.

nuh uh

sydthebeat

pickarooney wrote: »

The whole concept of a national team is xenophobic.

no its not...

xenophobic means a distrust or prejudice against other countries.

If 'national teams' was xenophobic, we wouldn't have selection rules.

Dog Botherer

I have yet to reconcile my deeply held belief that the concept of borders and nationality as an extension is kind of dumb and my love of the Irish national team.

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

nuh uh

Okay go ahead and delete the rest of my response that further explains my point

Dog Botherer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Okay go ahead and delete the rest of my response

sorry i think you need a mod to help with that

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

It was just a statement, not aimed at anyone in particular.

Seems to have touched a nerve though. Interesting.

not really,

just pointing out the diseased twisting of words

hilarious to remember all the commotion here from some posters about Kleyn vs Toner and even when Aki was picked ahead of Ringrose and how it shouldn't be happening and not an insignificant part of the argument based on player provenance but no issue with 5 project players starting in one go

very a la carte

accensi0n

If Keenan has a good game here, reckon he's Ireland full-back for the next 5 years.

Dog Botherer

glasso wrote: »

not really,

just pointing out the diseased twisting of words

hilarious to remember all the commotion here from some posters about Kleyn vs Toner and even when Aki was picked ahead of Ringrose and how it shouldn't be happening and not an insignificant part of the argument based on player provenance but no issue with 5 project players starting in one go

very a la carte

Aki plays 12, Ringrose plays 13. I don’t think that happened.

I happen to support the Kleyn thing. Toner is too tall. Very unsettling. Get him out.

El_Duderino 09

Interested Observer wrote: »

Anyone else really surprised about Murray? He's actually been left out of a full strength team away to England. Never thought I'd see the day. It's very difficult for a player of his stature to find themselves out of the team. Fwiw I think it's the right call.

This is precisely the wrong attitude regarding dropping an established player. We pretend they’re different from a fringe player, as if an established player’s ego is much more fragile. We imagine that dripping a player like Murray has a detrimental effect on them.

In reality being dropped is a powerful tool to allow a player to change things about their game. We had the same thing with Sander when Conan was on better form than him for the World Cup and we missed the opportunity to play the better player as Conan got injured before the change.

Picking on form means dropping the players wet familiar with in favour of players who are playing better. It’s nothing to fear. The players are professionals and they can handle being dropped - on condition that they can win back their place by improving.

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

Aki plays 12, Ringrose plays 13. I don’t think that happened.

I happen to support the Kleyn thing. Toner is too tall. Very unsettling. Get him out.

aki and henshaw

vs ringrose and henshaw

but you probably knew that but were just being obtuse

siltirocker

Dog Botherer wrote: »

CJ Stander rocked up to Munster with barely a word of English and worked his way up from AIL level to playing for Ireland in a World Cup and being one of our most important leaders and players.

That is a very romantic way to look at things. A plucky nobody who built his way up from the ranks of Shannon RFC.

He was a stand out in the Bulls Super Rugby squad and was called up to the Springbok squad for the Tri Nations. He left because he was told by Meyer that the plan for him was to be converted to a hooker. He was signed directly to Munster not Shannon, and he was touted as a potential Irish international before he even debuted for Munster.

Zzippy

Mod: We've had enough nonsense about project players, it has been rehashed so many times over the years and just causes too much hassle. Glasso if you want to discuss project players you can do it somewhere else. Any further dragging up of the topic will be considered trolling.

Yeah_Right

Dog Botherer wrote: »

there’s an argument to be made that Scotland in particular were taking the piss so aggressively with the 3 year rule that they were one of the main reasons WR had to extend residency. they literally had a lad in the SRU whose job it was to buy project players for Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Wales are less noticeably bad because most of their players have English names but they pick an absolutely insane amount of English born players. England “poach” off Wales too, ask a Welsh fan about Sam Underhill.

I would say we have a much lower instance of lads being bought in to play national level and ****ing off immediately when the contract is up a la Josh Strauss. in fact i can’t really think of a single instance of that. Bent has played about 5,000 Pro14 games for Leinster, Payne is defense coach in Ulster, Bundee Aki could have been on mad money in France after his first contract and he still stuck with Connacht.

The Welsh don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to foreign born players. As far as I know Wales are the only country to get in trouble for fielding ineligible players. It was Shane Howarth and a flanker (can't remember his name) both kiwi born and it turns out they didn't have Welsh ancestry. Both ended up qualifying under residency.

Sorry Zzippy

ionadnapóca

sydthebeat wrote: »

thats is a very strong and settled england team. Thats a ridiculously strong back row, even if Billy V isnt playing to his potential.

i think the only way we can this is to rattle Farrell right from the off, get him to stand deeper away from contact.
They will kick the leather off the ball and will play the percentages on the aerial contest.

Keenan will need to have the game of his life so far imo.

I hope we apply allot of territory in the opening 5-10mins.
It might mean kicking the ball back to England i.e. keep it in play not to touch
But they are far less dangerous at counterattack than from set plays - which they thrive on

England have scored a try early against us in 2019 x2 & 2020

Keenan has soldiered manfully in his first few tests. I think we will see what he is really made of now.
Maybe FB will be his best position in the long term.
I hope he goes well.

[Deleted User]

Dog Botherer wrote: »

sorry i think you need a mod to help with that

Calling me insane and now acting like a child. I think this conversation is over.

aloooof

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In reality being dropped is a powerful tool to allow a player to change things about their game. We had the same thing with Sander when Conan was on better form than him for the World Cup and we missed the opportunity to play the better player as Conan got injured before the change.

We really didn't have the same thing tho. It's just speculation to suggest that CJ was going to be dropped for Conan, before Conan's injury.

arsebiscuits1

accensi0n wrote: »

If Keenan has a good game here, reckon he's Ireland full-back for the next 5 years.

I think players holding on to national jerseys for that length of time is going to become a much rarer occurrence going forward with the level of quality we have available to us in certain positions.

For example Will Addison is barely 28 and I think he is absolute top quality when fit and someone who could really make a dent on the international scene.

Shane Daly has all the qualities of a top class fullback.

Jimmy O'Brien is another who could well find himself in the picture for international starts if he continues the way he's started this season

Dog Botherer

i think Matt Gallagher is great at 15 too, but he seems to score more from 11. maybe Farrell could incorporate him as some kind of hybrid fullback-winger, a “finger” if you will.

El_Duderino 09

aloooof wrote: »

We really didn't have the same thing tho. It's just speculation to suggest that CJ was going to be dropped for Conan, before Conan's injury.

Totally beside the point of the post. Established players are professionals and aren’t delicate flowers who can’t be dropped lest it irreparably damage their ego. The form player should play. And treat Conor Murray like a professional who can take reasonable criticism and handle being dropped. He became Ireland’s best no.9 through hard work, skill and dedication. He can do it again.