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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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aloooof

TRC10 wrote: »

Oh come on, you cant blame Keenan for Wales winning breakdown penalties. Ok, he happened to carry the ball into contact leading to rucks from which wales won penalties twice. But explain to me how thats somehow Keenans fault. It was the most assured performance from an Ireland fullback in 2020.

I think Larmour's performance v Wales in the 6 Nations was a cut above, tbh. He kicked and linked with his wingers better than he had previously done. He also had that quality finish for his try that I don't think Keenan gives you.

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Considering two of them are named in the starting team I’m not so sure.

Where have they been named, No selection has been published yet?

lawrencesummers

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Several players got turned over and it was more down to poor ruck work from the support then anything else. One of them, I think it was Ryan or POM literally just flopped down beside the Welsh player because they tried to effect the clear out from too upright a position.

Lowe got turned over early on because Porter i think literally missed the Welsh player attempting to jackal

So your way to defend Keenan putting a foot wrong is to mention other players doing things?

Keenan was weak in contact against Wales. He didn’t work enough in contact or on the ground.
Simple as.
His mistake may have been taking into contact instead of kicking but that’s for the coaches to look at.

What anyone else did was irrelevant.
What the original post said was that he didn’t do anything wrong, which clearly isn’t the case.

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Where have they been named, No selection has been published yet?

In the post you quoted.

[Deleted User]

Thought Keenan went grand for someone dropped into play fullback at the last minute. Responsibility for turnovers is often shared albeit fullback is often one of the easiest positions to get isolated and turned over from.

Thought he played a conservative game which is fine under the circumstances.

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

Oh come on, you cant blame Keenan for Wales winning breakdown penalties. Ok, he happened to carry the ball into contact leading to rucks from which wales won penalties twice. But explain to me how thats somehow Keenans fault. It was the most assured performance from an Ireland fullback in 2020.

Yes I can blame him.
It can be a number of things.
Wrong decision to kick instead of run.
Not fighting enough in contact
Not fighting enough on the ground.

It can also be a lack of support players, but the fact that it happened a few times is the problem.

He might be a great international player with more experience, but he’s not there yet and didn’t have a flawless game against wales as the OP said.

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yes I can blame him.
It can be a number of things.
Wrong decision to kick instead of run.
Not fighting enough in contact
Not fighting enough on the ground.

It can also be a lack of support players, but the fact that it happened a few times is the problem.

He might be a great international player with more experience, but he’s not there yet and didn’t have a flawless game against wales as the OP said.

Fair enough but I have to disagree. Ive watched the game back twice. The first breakdown that led to a turnover, hed just made a good catch around the halfway line and was tackled. And the 2nd was just outside his 22 when lowe let the ball bounce a couple of times before feeding keenan. He made good yards in a tricky situation. Maybe he could fight more on the ground but it was nothing to do with his decision making. He was also good in attack. Started a nice counter attack down the left with heads up rugby that lead to a VDF knock on, and made a break up the right hand side after wales missed touch. I'd be much more confident with him at 15 in Twickenham than stockdale, as I think most would be. But I'm open to correction if that's not the case

kingofthekong

lawrencesummers wrote: »

So your way to defend Keenan putting a foot wrong is to mention other players doing things?

Keenan was weak in contact against Wales. He didn’t work enough in contact or on the ground.
Simple as.
His mistake may have been taking into contact instead of kicking but that’s for the coaches to look at.

What anyone else did was irrelevant.
What the original post said was that he didn’t do anything wrong, which clearly isn’t the case.

Some ridiculous comments in this lol , do you even watch the games or understand anything about rugby

dregin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgBE4NJfeao

lawrencesummers

kingofthekong wrote: »

Some ridiculous comments in this lol , do you even watch the games or understand anything about rugby

Watch, coach, play.

Is that all you can add? a poor attempt at a personal attack instead of offering a different viewpoint?

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

Fair enough but I have to disagree. Ive watched the game back twice. The first breakdown that led to a turnover, hed just made a good catch around the halfway line and was tackled. And the 2nd was just outside his 22 when lowe let the ball bounce a couple of times before feeding keenan. He made good yards in a tricky situation. Maybe he could fight more on the ground but it was nothing to do with his decision making. He was also good in attack. Started a nice counter attack down the left with heads up rugby that lead to a VDF knock on, and made a break up the right hand side after wales missed touch. I'd be much more confident with him at 15 in Twickenham than stockdale, as I think most would be. But I'm open to correction if that's not the case

Being a better option at FB than stockdale is hardly difficult at this stage.

theVersatile

Six months ago I would've agreed about the ball carrier working on the ground - but new interpretations means thats now penalised if you take the piss. Keenam getting turned over is less indicative is his own ability but more so of how the game is changing as a whole towards allowing more contest at the breakdown

El_Duderino 09

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Thought Keenan went grand for someone dropped into play fullback at the last minute. Responsibility for turnovers is often shared albeit fullback is often one of the easiest positions to get isolated and turned over from.

Thought he played a conservative game which is fine under the circumstances.

Rob Kearney was often conservative but he was seldom turned over. He wasn’t the second coming but he did the unglamorous things incredibly well. There’s nothing wrong with having more ambition in attack than Rob showed, but being turned over more often will almost certainly be the result as it’s a higher risk way to play.

mfceiling

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yes I can blame him.
It can be a number of things.
Wrong decision to kick instead of run.
Not fighting enough in contact
Not fighting enough on the ground.

It can also be a lack of support players, but the fact that it happened a few times is the problem.

He might be a great international player with more experience, but he’s not there yet and didn’t have a flawless game against wales as the OP said.

Seriously man how can someone "fight on the ground or in contact" if they have next to no support from their own players?.
Hit the ground with 2 opposition players on top of you and you're pinged within seconds now.
Doesn't matter who you are or how strong you are....no support and you'll be penalised in seconds.
Nothing to do with Keenan.

kingofthekong

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Yes I can blame him.
It can be a number of things.
Wrong decision to kick instead of run.
Not fighting enough in contact
Not fighting enough on the ground.

It can also be a lack of support players, but the fact that it happened a few times is the problem.

He might be a great international player with more experience, but he’s not there yet and didn’t have a flawless game against wales as the OP said.

Bet your a quality coach blaming keenan for running into contact and his support men not clearing the ruck fast enough,

Thats just total ****e, if the man on the deck is pinged for holding his support men and the people who didnt reach the ruck fast enough are to blame...,

How you can blame a player for that is shocking , even more shocking that you coach rugby with a comment like that

pickarooney

A player holding on is a player deciding to give a penalty away. With today's rules you simply have to release and let your support runners tackle the jackal if they're not fast enough to clear out in the first place. It's a much better percentage play than giving the opposition three points or a dangerous kick to the corner.

Change my view.

eclipsechaser

pickarooney wrote: »

A player holding on is a player deciding to give a penalty away. With today's rules you simply have to release and let your support runners tackle the jackal if they're not fast enough to clear out in the first place. It's a much better percentage play than giving the opposition three points or a dangerous kick to the corner.

Change my view.

I'm glad to hear someone else bring this up. It's staggering the number of penalties given away from holding on when letting go - although frustrating - would leave the team much better off. I can't fathom why teams and players haven't adapted yet.

irishbucsfan

pickarooney wrote: »

A player holding on is a player deciding to give a penalty away. With today's rules you simply have to release and let your support runners tackle the jackal if they're not fast enough to clear out in the first place. It's a much better percentage play than giving the opposition three points or a dangerous kick to the corner.

Change my view.

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

Bazzo

salmocab wrote: »

Is there much to be learned from chucking a pile of players in against Georgia? Surely giving a couple of new caps along with a few of the newer players and a few regulars would be more beneficial than giving what would effectively be a B team a run with no cohesion and nothing much learnt.

No. We've seen it quite a few times where a completely second string team is sent out. It's usually a ****show where we win but look completely disjointed and learn very little about the players. And the players don't really learn anything from playing in a disjointed second string side against tier 2 opposition. If that's what you want may as well bring the wolfhounds back.

salmocab

Bazzo wrote: »

No. We've seen it quite a few times where a completely second string team is sent out. It's usually a ****show where we win but look completely disjointed and learn very little about the players. And the players don't really learn anything from playing in a disjointed second string side against tier 2 opposition. If that's what you want may as well bring the wolfhounds back.

That’s my feeling on it, it ends up being caps for caps sake. I’d like to see say Baird but it’s only worthwhile if it’s in a reasonably strong pack.
I suspect however it will be almost 15 changes.

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

That's blackguarding and refs need to be wise to that. Very hard to see in a split second.

aloooof

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

Great point, and completely agree. As well, you occasionally see a jackaler with hands on the ground just beyond the ball / tackled player to better brace for the clear out that brings him back onto the ball / player.

All the while, the ref has to continue to have eyes peeled for side entries, off feet, not rolling away, not releasing the tackled player etc.

I honestly think rugby must be amongst the most difficult sports to referee.

typhoony

where in the pecking order is JVDF, with so many of our backrow players being interchangeable and Leavy not far away from a return to the Ireland team, Stander and Doris are first choice 6 and 8 so that leaves the 7 position very open.
I was never a fan of JVDF so when Connors usurped him in the Leinster team i wasnt one bit surprised.

Captain_Crash

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Most of the time, the defensive player doesn't want the ball, they want the penalty, and so they're holding the ball into the prone player and that's just given as holding on. Sometimes the attacking player even pretty clearly releases it, refs are just looking for the defensive player to survive the clearout and keep their hands on the ball.

In my 22 years playing, my only ever yellow card was for exactly this! It’s so common I didn’t even know it was an offence!

pickarooney

An awful lot of people seem to think you 'win' a penalty just by grabbing the ball and not falling over. It's kind of been ingrained into fans, players and even refs that it's the defender who gets the award rather than the defender who gets the punishment which is a corrosive mindset. Sure, we all love to see a player nipping in, latching and staying strong against the clearout - it's the ultimate display of agility, strength and quick thinking in the game and some of my best moments on a rugby pitch have been in doing that (and my worst moments getting my knees destroyed in failing to do so) - but the intended outcome is that the defender steals the ball and switches defence into attack straight away and if the ball carrier deliberately prevents that he's penalised, as should be.

El_Duderino 09

typhoony wrote: »

where in the pecking order is JVDF, with so many of our backrow players being interchangeable and Leavy not far away from a return to the Ireland team, Stander and Doris are first choice 6 and 8 so that leaves the 7 position very open.
I was never a fan of JVDF so when Connors usurped him in the Leinster team i wasnt one bit surprised.

I thought VDF was very quite against Wales. I think the other options are probably rightly ahead of him now. That’s not to say he can’t regain form or improve parts of his game, but he will struggle to make the Leinster team and he’s an out-and-out 7 so he’s not a great bench option (unless you have versatile 6-8).

bilston

Take we can expect a team announcement today?

Any journos printing predicted teams this morning in the Dublin media?

GeordieC

Gerry Thornley's Ireland (possible) v England:

Keenan; Conway, Farrell, Aki, Lowe; R Byrne, Murray;

Healy, Kelleher, Porter, Ryan (capt), Henderson, Stander, Connors, Doris.

Replacements: Heffernan, E Byrne, Bealham, Roux or Beirne, O’Mahony, Gibson-Park, B Burns, Earls.

Interesting that GT actually had Burns starting when I read it last night, only to change this morning. He got the team pretty spot on last week.

Not delighted by the Byrne/Murray axis. Would rather RB/JGP or Burns/Murray (but who is kicker?)

Any news on Stockdale?

ionadnapóca

Stockdale: Tight calf...im a little skeptical. I'd imagine he will be back for Georgia and back on the wing.

I'd say that is the team... really hope Byrne gives a good show for himself. He deserves this chance.
I expect we will see the cross-field specials and hopefully allot of kicks in behind the English.
Would have liked to see JGP again myself.

Shane Daly still injured?

aloooof

ionadnapokot wrote: »

Shane Daly still injured?

I think there was an update earlier in the week that he had recovered. Hopefully see him for Georgia.