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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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P.Walnuts

bilston wrote: »

Personally I'd take Moore over either Ryan or Bealham and Cooney over pretty much all the 9s.

The others are just players that I think should be in the conversation but are probably a lot closer than some think.

By the way I'm not accusing anyone of bias...I just think a few Ulster players have fallen on the wrong side of some tight selection calls...possibly because Ulster had a slow start after lockdown which did them no favours.

I'm also aware that Addison, O'Toole and Balacoune would probably all have been called up but for injury.

I accept Cooney

Think Bealham is clearly better than Moore right now though

kingofthekong

bilston wrote: »

Personally I'd take Moore over either Ryan or Bealham and Cooney over pretty much all the 9s.

The others are just players that I think should be in the conversation but are probably a lot closer than some think.

By the way I'm not accusing anyone of bias...I just think a few Ulster players have fallen on the wrong side of some tight selection calls...possibly because Ulster had a slow start after lockdown which did them no favours.

I'm also aware that Addison, O'Toole and Balacoune would probably all have been called up but for injury.

Fine I'll accept Cooney but only because hes from Leinster (joking),

Id have moore ahead of Ryan also but not ahead of Bealham , Bealham has shown more than enough to be deserving of his place,

Cooney should be in the squad but imo makes too many errors to be ahead of JGP , you may have a point of being ahead of Murray

There seems to be an running opinion that the ulster players arent given a fair shake from the Irish selection team but its just bollocks

I think when Lyttle, Balacoune, O'toole, Hume all get extended injury free runs they will definitely be in the mix

OneLungDavy

I'd take McGrath over Ed Byrne. I know McGrath is in poor enough form but at least we know he's a hard-nosed unit of a prop who can scrummage against the likes of France and England.

El_Duderino 09

kingofthekong wrote: »

What player from Ulster deserves to be involved with Ireland that isnt?

Coetzee has already been capped by SA unfortunately

The obvious answer is John Cooney being the form 9 and not even getting a start in any of the first 3 six nations games when Murray was doing poorly.

El_Duderino 09

Marty Moore came back from lockdown and must have been 10kg overweight. He’s not as bad now but he’s still not very mobile around the park. He has some good involvements but keep an eye on him between involvements and you’ll see why he’s not being picked for Ireland.

[Deleted User]

Bealham has shown up very well off the bench, definitely ahead of Moore.

Niallof9

Why are we talking about being hard done by etc. This tournament should be a blank canvas. If we come out of this period without players such as EOS, Penny, Moore, Lowry, Baird, without possibly getting a crack at Georgia it will have been a disaster. A facile win over Wales means nothing if we don't continue to build our options.

WeleaseWoderick

Niallof9 wrote: »

Why are we talking about being hard done by etc. This tournament should be a blank canvas. If we come out of this period without players such as EOS, Penny, Moore, Lowry, Baird, without possibly getting a crack at Georgia it will have been a disaster. A facile win over Wales means nothing if we don't continue to build our options.

We are building options all over the place though? In the last 3 games, we have capped Ed Byrne, Connors, JGP, Burns, Keenan, Lowe and given the likes of Doris & Kelleher more experience than their initial couple of pre-Covid caps.

The "shiny new thing" always seems more appealing once the last one got capped i.e. people bored with Will Connors already wanting Scott Penny instead

I agree by the way that we should blood a few more new caps against Georgia but it doesn't take away from the building that has already started.

El_Duderino 09

Niallof9 wrote: »

Why are we talking about being hard done by etc. This tournament should be a blank canvas. If we come out of this period without players such as EOS, Penny, Moore, Lowry, Baird, without possibly getting a crack at Georgia it will have been a disaster. A facile win over Wales means nothing if we don't continue to build our options.

I don’t think anyone could predict Wales would be so poor. Always have to take them seriously so you could do some experiments against them, which they did, But I don’t see them bringing in a swathe of new players for the Georgia game. They’re usually very conservative with selection and I’d expect the squad to be picked from the players already on camp - probably plus Baird.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Why are we talking about being hard done by etc. This tournament should be a blank canvas. If we come out of this period without players such as EOS, Penny, Moore, Lowry, Baird, without possibly getting a crack at Georgia it will have been a disaster. A facile win over Wales means nothing if we don't continue to build our options.

You went from bemoaning a "shocking squad" when it was announced to actually being happy with the team that was picked for Wales.

Can we wait and see what team AF selects for Georgia, without supposing potential "disaster"? I fully expect it to be a fully 2nd and 3rd string selection.

Niallof9

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I don’t think anyone could predict Wales would be so poor. Always have to take them seriously so you could do some experiments against them, which they did, But I don’t see them bringing in a swathe of new players for the Georgia game. They’re usually very conservative with selection and I’d expect the squad to be picked from the players already on camp - probably plus Baird.

well thankfully Farrell has indicated his thinking is more imaginative. He's indicated its not set in stone.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

You went from bemoaning a "shocking squad" when it was announced to actually being happy with the team that was picked for Wales.

Can we wait and see what team AF selects for Georgia, without supposing potential "disaster"? I fully expect it to be a fully 2nd and 3rd string selection.

this is in reply to people who think its some great leap or risk to be picking Penny, Lowry etc. Shiny new thing say some...no these players have been performing consistently for a good while now in big games. Just like Connors. why does everything have to be so black and white in Ireland. this squad isn;t some sort of registered WC squad either. It can be changed.

And yeah it doesn't change the fact that it was a shocking squad imo. I was happy that he's shown adaptability. He's not as stubborn as his predecessors. I predict he will show this in the Georgia game. Some of the lads playing for Leinster last night must come into that game. Ditto a few of the Ulster lads. If not then, when. They aren't shiny new things they are the future of Irish rugby. and they can intermix with the current squad. the idea they have to earn their stripes ad infinitum that is usally proposed on here is a thing of yesteryear. Keenan, Connors are testament to it. I just hope he broadens that scope.

anyway another physical tonking in Twickers (if not on scoreboard) then the honeymoon period is well and truly over. this is a key test now we need a performance.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

this is in reply to people who think its some great leap or risk to be picking Penny, Lowry etc. Shiny new thing say some...no these players have been performing consistently for a good while now in big games. Just like Connors. why does everything have to be so black and white in Ireland. this squad isn;t some sort of registered WC squad either. It can be changed.

I don't think anyone is saying it's a great leap or risk to play Penny against Georgia. But equally, if he doesn't get picked it won't be a "disaster". Realistically, Penny is Leinster's 4th choice 7.

What big games exactly has been performing consistently in? Penny's 14 starts have been against the following:

Ospreys x3
Dragons x2
Ulster x2
Zebre x2
Edinburgh x2
Benetton
Scarlets
Glasgow

Niallof9 wrote: »

I was happy that he's shown adaptability. He's not as stubborn as his predecessors. I predict he will show this in the Georgia game. Some of the lads playing for Leinster last night must come into that game. Ditto a few of the Ulster lads. If not then, when.

Of course he will show this in the Georgia game. I think someone else posted previously the team that played them in 2014. And that was even under his predecessor that you deemed stubborn.

Ireland: Felix Jones, Craig Gilroy, Darren Cave, Gordon D'Arcy, Simon Zebo, Ian Madigan, Eoin Reddan, Dave Kilcoyne, Richardt Strauss, Mike Ross, Dave Foley, Mike McCarthy, Dominic Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Robbie Diack.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying it's a great leap or risk to play Penny against Georgia. But equally, if he doesn't get picked it won't be a "disaster". Realistically, Penny is Leinster's 4th choice 7.

What big games exactly has been performing consistently in? Penny's 14 starts have been against the following:

Ospreys x3
Dragons x2
Ulster x2
Zebre x2
Edinburgh x2
Benetton
Scarlets
Glasgow

Of course he will show this in the Georgia game. I think someone else posted previously the team that played them in 2014. And that was even under his predecessor that you deemed stubborn.

Ireland: Felix Jones, Craig Gilroy, Darren Cave, Gordon D'Arcy, Simon Zebo, Ian Madigan, Eoin Reddan, Dave Kilcoyne, Richardt Strauss, Mike Ross, Dave Foley, Mike McCarthy, Dominic Ryan, Tommy O'Donnell, Robbie Diack.

One he was stubborn and two thats hardly a good example of showing belief in younger lads.

And Connors has played in how many more big games for Leinster? 1 Champions Cup game? whats the difference? i mean if your going to include Ireland as well, well how does one get in if one game is the difference between getting capped. its not like he's leapfrogged anybody. we can give Lowry as much a go as we can Keenan. There's enough slice of the pie to go around. The way your painting it is exactly what i'm talking about. Whats the magic number for Penny. the champions cup? didn't work for Lowry. and your dismissal of those games is why Irish rugby can be a bit ****e at times. Until COnnors is doing it game by game in the Champions Cup, come back to me using those stats and it might interest me. For me it doesn't matter a jot.

Penny is one of the outstanding backrow forwards coming through. As is Baird. And Connors does look like our Lydiate. These lads must play some part in this tournament if we're serious about advancing as a team. Its as simple as that really. and i've gone into detail the extra issues that abound from this policy ad nauseum. I mean we'll hear the same when Alex Kendallan is knocking on the door. For some of the posters on here guys need to be grizzled vets to get a chance. Its laughable and has been shown up time and time again. "Lowe won't be a guaranteed starter etc"...will you get out of here.

Its all moot until after the game against England i suppose. its the true barometer of where we are at. i suppose people can agree if it goes a bit pear shaped against them then we need to broaden our scope. there would be nothing to lose.

Its clear as day we're moving the ball quicker, rucking less, putting more width on the ball. That is all very positive compared to some of the dross of Schmidtball where it was pick and go's constantly with numerous strike plays.

Andy is ruling less by fear it seems and is placing far more trust in the players and we aren't being micromanaged. all to be welcomed. I hope he continues investing in wildcards.

lawrencesummers

15 Hugo Keenan
14 Andrew Conway
13 Chris Farrell
12 Aki
11 Lowe
10 Byrne
9 Murray
8 CJ
7 Caelan Doris
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 James Ryan
4 Quinn Roux
3 Andrew Porter
2 Ronan Kelleher
1 Cian Healy

I reckon we are looking at this team starting.

Is herring injured? If not he starts.
Is Keenan our best option at FB? He is a weakness for a game in Twickenham.

We will play well but ultimately lose because our bench is going to be problematic.

sydthebeat

It should either be Murray and Burns or JPG and Byrne.

arsebiscuits1

Ryan confirmed as captain

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1328681302455955456

Tomtom364

lawrencesummers wrote: »

15 Hugo Keenan
14 Andrew Conway
13 Chris Farrell
12 Aki
11 Lowe
10 Byrne
9 Murray
8 CJ
7 Caelan Doris
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 James Ryan
4 Quinn Roux
3 Andrew Porter
2 Ronan Kelleher
1 Cian Healy

I reckon we are looking at this team starting.

Is herring injured? If not he starts.
Is Keenan our best option at FB? He is a weakness for a game in Twickenham.

We will play well but ultimately lose because our bench is going to be problematic.

I think id be more comfortable with 15. Conway 14. Earls 11. Lowe
I think you need the defensive stability of having Earls & Conway on the pitch.

15. Keenan 14. Conway 11. Earls would be an option too but in the 15. Keenan vs 11. Lowe debate Lowe would be the preferred.

Then again If Andy Farrell dosnt rate Conway at 15 Id rather sacrifice the attack capabilities of Lowe for the Defensive strengths or Earls & Conway on te wings. Put Lowe at 23 to come on with a rocket in the second half.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

And Connors has played in how many more big games for Leinster? 1 Champions Cup game? whats the difference? i mean if your going to include Ireland as well, well how does one get in if one game is the difference between getting capped. its not like he's leapfrogged anybody.

The reality is the coaches see far more of these players than we ever will. Here is roughly Connors path that got him a start versus France:

Connors played (and trained) well in Pro14 games.
That got him selected for the interpro's and Pro14 SF.
That got him selected for the Saracens QF.
That got him called up to the Ireland squad.
That got him a start in the Italy game (where he got MOTM).
That got him a start against France.

Where would you say Penny is along that path?

Niallof9 wrote: »

we can give Lowry as much a go as we can Keenan. There's enough slice of the pie to go around. The way your painting it is exactly what i'm talking about. Whats the magic number for Penny. the champions cup? didn't work for Lowry. and your dismissal of those games is why Irish rugby can be a bit ****e at times. Until COnnors is doing it game by game in the Champions Cup, come back to me using those stats and it might interest me. For me it doesn't matter a jot.

I'm not dismissing those games. They're important for players development. But you called them big games. The reality is they weren't.

In any case the fact that the players we're discussing play the same position is indicative. As I said, Penny is currently Leinster's 4th choice 7, vying with VdF and Leavy. There's barely enough slice of pie at Leinster, tbh.

Niallof9 wrote: »

Penny is one of the outstanding backrow forwards coming through. As is Baird. And Connors does look like our Lydiate. These lads must play some part in this tournament if we're serious about advancing as a team.

Last week you were bemoaning that Connors was now an automatic starter.

Look, I think we largely agree.

Have we seen a lot of change so far under Farrell, both in personnel and gameplan? Yes.
Will we likely see even more change for the Georgia game? Yes.

My only point is that there is a middle ground where, even if the likes of Penny don't start against Georgia, it won't be the disaster you're painting it out to be.

El_Duderino 09

lawrencesummers wrote: »

15 Hugo Keenan
14 Andrew Conway
13 Chris Farrell
12 Aki
11 Lowe
10 Byrne
9 Murray
8 CJ
7 Caelan Doris
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 James Ryan
4 Quinn Roux
3 Andrew Porter
2 Ronan Kelleher
1 Cian Healy

I reckon we are looking at this team starting.

Is herring injured? If not he starts.
Is Keenan our best option at FB? He is a weakness for a game in Twickenham.

We will play well but ultimately lose because our bench is going to be problematic.

I'm not sure I've ever seen Doris play 7. POM is surely the more likely of the two to play 7

salmocab

Is there much to be learned from chucking a pile of players in against Georgia? Surely giving a couple of new caps along with a few of the newer players and a few regulars would be more beneficial than giving what would effectively be a B team a run with no cohesion and nothing much learnt.

TRC10

I dont understand the calls for Conway at 15. He has barely played there in the last 2 years. When we have a natural fullback in Keenan who is solid defensively and aerialy and is an attacking threat and who hasn't put a foot wrong so far. It's also very telling that in both his games for leinster this season, hes played 15 with Larmour on the wing.

stephen_n

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

The issue with McCloskey is that he only covers inside centre, which makes him a poor bench option. I agree broadly on his aspirations, but it would take someone with an iron will to say no to international team selectors.

That’s compounded by Farrell only being a one position player too. You might get away with one in a match day squad but not both.

UAEguy2020

lawrencesummers wrote: »

15 Hugo Keenan
14 Andrew Conway
13 Chris Farrell
12 Aki
11 Lowe
10 Byrne
9 Murray
8 CJ
7 Caelan Doris
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 James Ryan
4 Quinn Roux
3 Andrew Porter
2 Ronan Kelleher
1 Cian Healy

I reckon we are looking at this team starting.

Is herring injured? If not he starts.
Is Keenan our best option at FB? He is a weakness for a game in Twickenham.

We will play well but ultimately lose because our bench is going to be problematic.

We could have Kelleher,Henderson,O’Mahony,JGP,Conway to come off the bench, hardly a weak bench.

Richie_Rich89

Schmidt was brilliant at using the Autumn games against weaker opposition to really try to add to the strength in depth. He was much better than O'Sullivan and Kidney in this regard - or at least that's my perception/recollection. He also did things like selecting James Ryan for the 2017 summer tour before he'd played for Leinster. I don't know where the idea that he didn't use the smaller games to give fringe/up-and-coming players a chance is coming from.

lawrencesummers

TRC10 wrote: »

I dont understand the calls for Conway at 15. He has barely played there in the last 2 years. When we have a natural fullback in Keenan who is solid defensively and aerialy and is an attacking threat and who hasn't put a foot wrong so far. It's also very telling that in both his games for leinster this season, hes played 15 with Larmour on the wing.

Keenan didn’t put a foot wrong?
Did you not watch him getting turned over multiple times in contact versus Wales?

lawrencesummers

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

We could have Kelleher,Henderson,O’Mahony,JGP,Conway to come off the bench, hardly a weak bench.

Considering two of them are named in the starting team I’m not so sure.

Burkie1203

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Keenan didn’t put a foot wrong?
Did you not watch him getting turned over multiple times in contact versus Wales?

Several players got turned over and it was more down to poor ruck work from the support then anything else. One of them, I think it was Ryan or POM literally just flopped down beside the Welsh player because they tried to effect the clear out from too upright a position.

Lowe got turned over early on because Porter i think literally missed the Welsh player attempting to jackal

Burkie1203

Niallof9 wrote: »

Why are we talking about being hard done by etc. This tournament should be a blank canvas. If we come out of this period without players such as EOS, Penny, Moore, Lowry, Baird, without possibly getting a crack at Georgia it will have been a disaster. A facile win over Wales means nothing if we don't continue to build our options.

Porter has got a run of starts at TH
Kelleher and Ross Byrne have been involved
Doris and Connors starting games
Burns, Keenan JGP and Lowe capped

Deegan Baird Balacoune and Daly Carbery all injured but a few of them might be brought in for the Georgia game (Daly and Baird)

Last week on Twitter some people complained that Aki and Stander were 'dropped'. But they were previously complaining that we don't give opportunities to others.

TRC10

lawrencesummers wrote: »

Keenan didn’t put a foot wrong?
Did you not watch him getting turned over multiple times in contact versus Wales?

Oh come on, you cant blame Keenan for Wales winning breakdown penalties. Ok, he happened to carry the ball into contact leading to rucks from which wales won penalties twice. But explain to me how thats somehow Keenans fault. It was the most assured performance from an Ireland fullback in 2020.