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Random EV thoughts.....

Old diesel

The main motors forum has the motors chat thread for the little things one would like to say but might not justify a thread.

Thought it might be an idea for here re hybrids and EV stuff.....

To kick off - i wonder if a new measurement for EVs might be assuming a start trip at 100 percent......

A how much range do you get with a 15 minute stop.

With a 350 kw charging a Porsche Tayman might do very well with getting on for 400 miles...

A Leaf 62 not so good.

Obviously where a car can do more then 50 kw charging we would need both a 50 kw and a whatever the cars top rate is figure*.

*IF chargers are available

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Black_Knight

Black_Knight wrote: »

From the ievoa virtual meeting:

Eamonn stack from range therapy:
All related to the leaf.
- Adding 120km range to a leaf for about €7k. Adding an additional battery into the boot in a fireproof box.
Takes a lot from gen 1 boots, but only 18cm from the boot of gen 2 boots.

- If you provided the battery pack, a swap would be 1200-2500 depending on battery size.
Taking from muxan and bringing it to Ireland.

- CCS conversion and 3 phase conversion available, but expensive.
CCS conversion (in a Zoe for example) could be 1-2k.

On the face of it, I find it hard to see people willing to put 6-7k into a 6-8 year old car. Ok you get a few k for your own battery pack, but it's a lot of money and I'd wonder is that 6-7k better served in a new car?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6D0PjOU3wk

Nice video of the conversion.

garo

“In the meantime we need to replace a Tesla door handle.”

unkel

Price of the install of the 18kWh boot pack. Supply and fit, including VAT:

Muxsan (Netherlands): €5990
Cleevely Electric Vehicles (UK) as per the James & Kate video: £6250 (€6955)
RangeTherapy (Ireland): €7500

Now I appreciate the pack would cost a couple hundred quid to ship to here, but that is a very significant price difference

Black_Knight

unkel wrote: »

Price of the install of the 18kWh boot pack. Supply and fit, including VAT:

Muxsan (Netherlands): €5990
Cleevely Electric Vehicles (UK) as per the James & Kate video: £6250 (€6955)
RangeTherapy (Ireland): €7500

Now I appreciate the pack would cost a couple hundred quid to ship to here, but that is a very significant price difference

Do they quote 7500 in range therapy? On the meeting they said 6-7k. And keep reiterating they don't do it for profit.

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

Do they quote 7500 in range therapy? On the meeting they said 6-7k. And keep reiterating they don't do it for profit.

Yep

How much does this cost?
+120km (18kWh) extension pack costs €7500. This includes: Muxsan kit, extension battery pack, installation and warranty (VAT included)

Linky

Kramer

https://rangetherapy.org/

Vehicle modification in Ireland and UK is classified as any work done that is listed in the “Permanent Fixture Item” list. An EV battery extension is not on the list. Therefore, it is not viewed as a formal modification, just an enhancement, like installing a very expensive stereo.

Nothing about the suspension changes required mentioned, heavier springs etc.?
Also, the max payload would likely be reduced by at least the 160Kg of additional batteries added in the boot.

It's likely max passengers would be reduced to four, or maybe even 3.
Look at how VW had to reduce the 77kWh ID.3 passenger capacity to 4, due to the extra weight of the biggery battery.

I'd say lots of insurance implications too.

As this is not a formal vehicle modification, there are no insurance implications. Your car is clearly more valuable with the pack. However, in the unlikely case of a car write-off, the insurance company are unlikely to pay extra.

What's a "formal modification"? :rolleyes:.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

What's a "formal modification"? :rolleyes:.

i must admit, I too have this question, considering adding race stripes to a car is seen as a modification, I don't see how increasing the capacity of the traction battery isn't. I suspect if any insurance company has commented on this type of change, they didn't go beyond upgrading your 12V battery from 60Ah to 94Ah.

DrPhilG

Basically reads as "we haven't a clue if this will affect your insurance, but at a guess we'll say probably not".

the_amazing_raisin

Interesting article about Tesla vs VW ID sales in Norway and the Netherlands

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2020/11/17/volkswagen-has-sold-359x-as-many-id3s-as-tesla-has-sold-model-3s-in-the-netherlands-in-november-and-112x-as-many-in-norway/?sh=ebbb2c576844

Short summary, there's a lot more ID.3s being sold than model 3s.

The writer is a known Tesla critic, so I'm not sure I buy the whole 'Tesla is doomed' spiel, and there's a lot more behind the numbers. VW had a huge stockpile of ID.3s built up while Tesla have been having production issues due to Covid-19, so there's not a huge benefit in comparing numbers at the moment. I'd say the 2021 numbers will make for very interesting reading

It does show raise some interesting questions though. Is Tesla starting to hit the end of the Model 3 rush and are potential customers waiting for a price drop or a Model 3 refresh, or waiting for the Model Y

It also means Tesla will have fewer ZEV credits to sell, which will hurt their profits.

Anyway, let the arguing commence

AndyBoBandy

Breaking News:

A huge German Manufacturer is selling lots more EV's compared to an American premium EV manufacturer, who's cars are more expensive than the German makers cars are.... making decent EV's more affordable for a lot more people.

Anybody who didn't think this was going to happen would be a fool's fool.

MJohnston

That would only be a problem for Tesla if they wanted to be a car manufacturer. But what they want to be more is a clean energy tech company. The car business is just a niche product that's intended to drive uptake and demand on the energy side of things.

[Deleted User]

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Breaking News:

A huge German Manufacturer is selling lots more EV's compared to an American premium EV manufacturer, who's cars are more expensive than the German makers cars are.... making decent EV's more affordable for a lot more people.

Anybody who didn't think this was going to happen would be a fool's fool.

It was always a case of when, rather than if.
This time around there is the new kid on the block, Chinese made cars from companies that do not have ICE legacy to hold them back,

Tesla were never a real competitor to the Euro giants, but the Chinese EV manufacturers are.

Some even have bought old British names (MG) and will appear European, these are the real competitors.

Cyrus

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Interesting article about Tesla vs VW ID sales in Norway and the Netherlands

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2020/11/17/volkswagen-has-sold-359x-as-many-id3s-as-tesla-has-sold-model-3s-in-the-netherlands-in-november-and-112x-as-many-in-norway/?sh=ebbb2c576844

Short summary, there's a lot more ID.3s being sold than model 3s.

The writer is a known Tesla critic, so I'm not sure I buy the whole 'Tesla is doomed' spiel, and there's a lot more behind the numbers. VW had a huge stockpile of ID.3s built up while Tesla have been having production issues due to Covid-19, so there's not a huge benefit in comparing numbers at the moment. I'd say the 2021 numbers will make for very interesting reading

It does show raise some interesting questions though. Is Tesla starting to hit the end of the Model 3 rush and are potential customers waiting for a price drop or a Model 3 refresh, or waiting for the Model Y

It also means Tesla will have fewer ZEV credits to sell, which will hurt their profits.

Anyway, let the arguing commence

the norwegians are loaded generally so once decent german options came available that was always going to happen, for a period the e-tron was the best selling car in norway :eek:

AndyBoBandy

Musk has repeatedly said he wants this (more big manufacturers making EV's), that's why most of the Tesla patents are out there and open for anyone to see and use*

As much as he wants Tesla to succeed (and they are succeeding), he also wants the world driving EV's, and he's not stupid enough to think only Tesla can or should do it. He wants the likes of VW doing mass market EV's...

Tesla has and will continue have it's place in the market, just like the Koreans will, as well as the Germans, Chinese et all.

*not entirely how sure I am on this, but I do believe they share their designs/IP for other manufacturers to use (should they want to).

the_amazing_raisin

Cyrus wrote: »

the norwegians are loaded generally so once decent german options came available that was always going to happen, for a period the e-tron was the best selling car in norway :eek:

Certainly with the incentives the e-tron was pretty compelling in Norway, especially when compared to similar size vehicles

There's definitely a bit of a love affair between Norwegians and German cars, but I guess you could say the same for the rest of Europe. I know a few folks who will only buy German cars because they reckon the build quality is better (it generally can't be faulted)

Then again, I know folks who'll only buy Japanese cars for similar reasons.

I also knew one guy who would only buy Fords, presumably because he hates himself or enjoys being sad or something :P

AndyBoBandy

cruisey1987 wrote: »

There's definitely a bit of a love affair between Norwegians and German cars, but I guess you could say the same for the rest of Europe.

OT but if you ever want to see a stunning history of Audi's from the last 30 years that are still daily drivers, go to Lithuania, where the Audi is by far and away the king of cars, and are generally kept on the road for a very very long time... (my OH's father has a mid-90's A4, with a 2.4L petrol engine, and its a beast of a thing).

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Musk has repeatedly said he wants this (more big manufacturers making EV's), that's why most of the Tesla patents are out there and open for anyone to see and use*

As much as he wants Tesla to succeed (and they are succeeding), he also wants the world driving EV's, and he's not stupid enough to think only Tesla can or should do it. He wants the likes of VW doing mass market EV's...

Tesla has and will continue have it's place in the market, just like the Koreans will, as well as the Germans, Chinese et all.

*not entirely how sure I am on this, but I do believe they share their designs/IP for other manufacturers to use (should they want to).

Yeah I feel like Tesla is going to have to work hard to stay ahead, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, it'll keep them innovating

I wonder how it'll play out. It seems like most of the competition is aiming to beat Tesla on price which seems like the simplest way to get ahead.

Yeah the ID.3, or e-2008, or whatever, aren't as good as Tesla's but they're also a lot cheaper so you shouldn't expect as much at the end of the day.

So will Tesla go after the cheap EV market, or will they stay in the mid-luxury segment where they can enjoy better profits and still sell the features that their customers love like autopilot?

It's also worth noting that Tesla have almost 0 competition in the US for at least a year. There's the Ford Mach-E and the ID.4, but they won't be in big numbers until 2022 at the earliest.

More budget friendly EVs aren't being targeted for the US, so there may be an opening for a Tesla Model 2 or something there

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

That would only be a problem for Tesla if they wanted to be a car manufacturer. But what they want to be more is a clean energy tech company. The car business is just a niche product that's intended to drive uptake and demand on the energy side of things.

Tbh Tesla seem to be aiming to be a battery company and everything else is just a sideline to sell batteries

the_amazing_raisin

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Breaking News:

A huge German Manufacturer is selling lots more EV's compared to an American premium EV manufacturer, who's cars are more expensive than the German makers cars are.... making decent EV's more affordable for a lot more people.

Anybody who didn't think this was going to happen would be a fool's fool.

Yeah it seems like the easiest place to beat Tesla is price which is what the competition seems to be going for. Certainly I think the Model 3 ended up being a lot more expensive than people in Europe were expecting

garo

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Tbh Tesla seem to be aiming to be a battery company and everything else is just a sideline to sell batteries

Really? What do you base that on?

the_amazing_raisin

garo wrote: »

Really? What do you base that on?

Battery day, lack of announcements about new cars to name two

There was a tweet about a Model 2 but that sounds more reactive to the fact that there's a lot of budget EVs coming out now (budget compared to Model 3 that is)

unkel

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Battery day, lack of announcements about new cars to name two

There was a tweet about a Model 2 but that sounds more reactive to the fact that there's a lot of budget EVs coming out now (budget compared to Model 3 that is)

Why would they announce any new cars? The company hasn't the size. The current factories (just opened or still being built) will almost exclusively produce Model 3 and Model Y

Personally I can't ever see Tesla doing a budget small hatch like a Model 2. And if they will, it's many years away. Maybe once / if / when they build a million of the above per year

garo

Model Y in Giga Berlin. I don't think you can say they are de-emphasizing cars. The first Model Y was delivered earlier this year.

Markcheese

Tesla have a rep for doing almost everything In house , or for getting into partnerships to allow it make more itself ..
And there hasn't been much evidence of them either trying up with another car maker to supply batteries , or to licence their technology to anyone else ..
In fact they seem to be doubling down on developing machinery to make their cars more effectively ...

[Deleted User]

Well, the one-piece cast subframes are a real gamechanger in vehicle manufacturing, so would be a great process they could licence to other manufacturers.

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

Why would they announce any new cars? The company hasn't the size. The current factories (just opened or still being built) will almost exclusively produce Model 3 and Model Y

Personally I can't ever see Tesla doing a budget small hatch like a Model 2. And if they will, it's many years away. Maybe once / if / when they build a million of the above per year

Well, they've been announcing cars every year since the Model 3, so it's odd that they didn't have anything for this year.

I get your point regarding factory capacity, at the same time though Musk never seems to be one for leaving things at steady state, he likes to keep ahead of the competition.

I don't really see Tesla producing a cheap mobile any time soon. I suspect the Model 2 will end up being more like a hot hatch. If you think about what makes Telsa great, it comes down to:

Batteries
Efficiency
Autopilot
Tech gizmos

It seems difficult to get the latter two into considering the amount of expensive hardware needed. Maybe in 5 years they'll be able to get the current generation autopilot into a cheaper package.

When the base Model 3 came out it didn't include autopilot and I suspect it didn't sell well which was why they nixed it. Telsa know their customers, they want the power and they want the technology and they're willing to pay for it

slave1

Don't forget their Superchargning network, it's a serious competitive advantage they have

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

Don't forget their Superchargning network, it's a serious competitive advantage they have

Okay fair point, I did forget supercharging

AndyBoBandy

cruisey1987 wrote: »

If you think about what makes Telsa great, it comes down to:

Batteries
Efficiency
Autopilot
Tech gizmos

And don't forget Performance......

I drive a lowly SR+, Tesla's slowest current car at around 360HP, 0-100 in just the 5.6 seconds..

MJohnston

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

And don't forget Performance......

I drive a lowly SR+, Tesla's slowest current car at around 360HP, 0-100 in just the 5.6 seconds..

This doesn't really seem like a selling point for Tesla specifically, given that most EVs have performance characteristics way way above the equivalent ICE car.