The wondrous adventures of Sinn Fein (part 2)

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What is the function of an 'army council' if there is no 'army'?

It's an obsolete term used for faux outrage. The 'Old IRA' existed for years. One of the things that happens in post conflict/war society.

As I said, if these groups represent a military threat the onus is on the two governments to take action. They haven't even if political parties like using the terms for faux outrage and political capital.

The height of the provisional IRA had 1200 volunteers in the 1970s. The army council controlled PR, manufacture, logistics, engineering etc. The Army as you emphasised is the easiest and most expendable part. If the army council, which is my contention, controls PR and SF, then it is subverting who people are voting for.

On this thread Francie you wont believe anything without evidence, but on FGFF threads you are happy to post without any evidence of illegality. You cant have it both ways.

James Brown

joeguevara wrote: »

Francie, you know Im not being disingenuous. But I think you know that SF members have been educated never to use the term army council. MLM saying that she doesn't speak for them and is not their PR is evidence enough that they are still in existence.

If it existed, would it make sense to you that they say to new SF members, 'psst, there's still an army council, but say nothing'?
Would it not be more practical to move any remaining members, (of the organisation that signed up to political peace) into SF and like every other party, have a party HQ with members, elected and unelected debating and deciding what path the party might take? Which is what they did by all accounts. Why bother with an 'army council'?

joeguevara wrote: »

Francie, you know Im not being disingenuous. But I think you know that SF members have been educated never to use the term army council. MLM saying that she doesn't speak for them and is not their PR is evidence enough that they are still in existence.

What is the function of an 'army council' if there is no 'army'?

It's an obsolete term used for faux outrage. The 'Old IRA' existed for years. One of the things that happens in post conflict/war society.

As I said, if these groups represent a military threat the onus is on the two governments to take action. They haven't even if political parties like using the terms for faux outrage and political capital.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

joe being dis-ingenuous again.

The IRA were encouraged to get involved in democratic politics. They have to the satisfaction of the monitoring bodies and the two governments or else action would have been taken to suspend SF, as has happened before.

Nobody I know in SF refers to an 'army council'. Are former members of the army council in SF, I would presume so. So what?

Francie, you know Im not being disingenuous. But I think you know that SF members have been educated never to use the term army council. MLM saying that she doesn't speak for them and is not their PR is evidence enough that they are still in existence.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Many are proud to be associated with the UDA. Many were in the UDA. This is public knowledge.

That doesn't make it something that is right, or welcome. It shouldn't stop condemnation of what the organisation did or what it stands for.

Don't you agree about both?

In your opinion. Many are happy to celebrate the Black and Tan/RIC. The point is, it's not some hidden secret.
You are free to condemn what you like.

An ex-IRA or ex-UDA or BA person is equally right to be proud or celebrate be it their view, or regret any association, be that their feeling on it.

Again, you are moving from the point.

joeguevara wrote: »

For something to be a political wing, means that the original head must still exist, otherwise they are just a party.

You are a breath of fresh air on this thread. You have admitted that the IRA still exists, the army council regularly meets and SF are simply a political wing which is controlled by said council in less than 10 posts.

joe being dis-ingenuous again.

The IRA were encouraged to get involved in democratic politics. They have to the satisfaction of the monitoring bodies and the two governments or else action would have been taken to suspend SF, as has happened before.

Nobody I know in SF refers to an 'army council'. Are former members of the army council in SF, I would presume so. So what?

Hqrry113 wrote: »

The political wing of the IRA is now the largest party in Ireland, I suppose that should give some validation for what the IRA stood for I suppose?

For something to be a political wing, means that the original head must still exist, otherwise they are just a party.

You are a breath of fresh air on this thread. You have admitted that the IRA still exists, the army council regularly meets and SF are simply a political wing which is controlled by said council in less than 10 posts.

Solutionking

Hqrry113 wrote: »

The political wing of the IRA is now the largest party in Ireland, I suppose that should give some validation for what the IRA stood for I suppose?

The Nazi party was the largest in Germany. Just because a party is large are we supposed to think it is good?

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Kieran Doherty one of the hunger strikers was elected to the Dail in 1981, I can't remember where exactly.

Cavan-Monaghan

imme

Hqrry113 wrote: »

Kieran Doherty one of the hunger strikers was elected to the Dail in 1981, I can't remember where exactly.

Cavan Monaghan was the constituency, quelle surprise.

Cullianane's constituency is Waterford, he was referring to Waterford, talking about Waterford.

Solutionking

Hqrry113 wrote: »

The PIRA does not exist as an organized structure and was disbanded in 2007.

Former members of the organization within Sinn Fein and outside of it are still dedicated to creating a United Ireland through peaceful means.

So it doesn't exist according to you?

So can you tell me why are SF shouting about it 13 years after you said it ceased to exist?

imme wrote: »

According to the rte website David Cullinane "said he made the comments in the context of remembering those who stood in the constituency during the hunger strikes of the 1980's".

There was a hunger striker who stood in the Waterford constituency in the 1981 general election.
But he was affiliated to the INLA.

Was it ever revealed who David Cullinane was referring to.

A Sinn Fein -The Workers Party candidate was elected in the February 1982 election.

But that was SF The Workers Party, not Cullinane's SF.

Kieran Doherty one of the hunger strikers was elected to the Dail in 1981, I can't remember where exactly.

blanch152 wrote: »

Many are proud to be associated with the UDA. Many were in the UDA. This is public knowledge.

That doesn't make it something that is right, or welcome. It shouldn't stop condemnation of what the organisation did or what it stands for.

Don't you agree about both?

The political wing of the IRA is now the largest party in Ireland, I suppose that should give some validation for what the IRA stood for I suppose?

blanch152 wrote: »

Many are proud to be associated with the UDA. Many were in the UDA. This is public knowledge.

That doesn't make it something that is right, or welcome. It shouldn't stop condemnation of what the organisation did or what it stands for.

Don't you agree about both?

The political wing of the IRA is now the largest party in Ireland, I suppose that should give some validation for what the IRA stood for I suppose?

imme

Solutionking wrote: »

If the PIRA didn't exist why are SF still shouting about "Up da Ra" at events in celebration?

It would be a bit stupid shouting about something that didn't exist?

According to the rte website David Cullinane "said he made the comments in the context of remembering those who stood in the constituency during the hunger strikes of the 1980's".

There was a hunger striker who stood in the Waterford constituency in the 1981 general election.
But he was affiliated to the INLA.

Was it ever revealed who David Cullinane was referring to.

A Sinn Fein -The Workers Party candidate was elected in the February 1982 election.

But that was SF The Workers Party, not Cullinane's SF.

blanch152 wrote: »

Many are proud to be associated with the UDA. Many were in the UDA. This is public knowledge.

That doesn't make it something that is right, or welcome. It shouldn't stop condemnation of what the organisation did or what it stands for.

Don't you agree about both?

Might not be right to you or me, but so long as the UDA are not active or armed, I respect their right to remember or honour them.

How could I not when we respect and honour those who fought and killed here, on behalf of our own freedom struggle and political fight for independence and sovereignty?

blanch152

Bowie wrote: »

Many are proud to be associated with the IRA. Many were in the IRA. This is public knowledge.

Many are proud to be associated with the UDA. Many were in the UDA. This is public knowledge.

That doesn't make it something that is right, or welcome. It shouldn't stop condemnation of what the organisation did or what it stands for.

Don't you agree about both?

James Brown

Solutionking wrote: »

If the PIRA didn't exist why are SF still shouting about "Up da Ra" at events in celebration?

It would be a bit stupid shouting about something that didn't exist?

Many are proud to be associated with the IRA. Many were in the IRA. This is public knowledge.

joeguevara wrote: »

They havent gone away. They still exist in the same structure as previously. They regularly meet as per other posters and they control Sinn Fein, if you want my opinion which is in line with the Independent commission.

The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm this afternoon.
All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.

Tthat's a statement from the IRA, volunteers were encouraged to pursue their goals through exclusively peaceful means there is nothing wrong with that, if you want to refer to these former volunteers who are currently doing this as the IRA then that is up to you.

joeguevara wrote: »

They havent gone away. They still exist in the same structure as previously. They regularly meet as per other posters and they control Sinn Fein, if you want my opinion which is in line with the Independent commission.

No, read the reports.

They do not exist as previously, their entire military structures have been dismantled and they are committed to democratic means.

If they aren't then there is an onus on the two governments to take action.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where do you think these people went?

They were encouraged to get involved in democratic politics. They did, according to those tasked with monitoring it.
It is others who call them the 'Army Council'.

They havent gone away. They still exist in the same structure as previously. They regularly meet as per other posters and they control Sinn Fein, if you want my opinion which is in line with the Independent commission.

joeguevara wrote: »

Before we continue, do you admit that they exist?

The PIRA does not exist as an organized structure and was disbanded in 2007.

Former members of the organization within Sinn Fein and outside of it are still dedicated to creating a United Ireland through peaceful means.

joeguevara wrote: »

Before we continue, do you admit that they exist?

Where do you think these people went?

They were encouraged to get involved in democratic politics. They did, according to those tasked with monitoring it.
It is others who call them the 'Army Council'.

Hqrry113 wrote: »

When did anyone say the PIRA never existed?

Before we continue, do you admit that they exist?

Solutionking wrote: »

If the PIRA didn't exist why are SF still shouting about "Up da Ra" at events in celebration?

It would be a bit stupid shouting about something that didn't exist?

When did anyone say the PIRA never existed?

Solutionking

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So, if this 'Army Council' exists, what have the governments, who have very clear commitments in the GFA done?

You cannot have it every which way here.

My belief is that there is no longer an 'army' and a name is being applied that has no relevance or actual meaning.
It is clear to me that the IRA have gotten involved in democratic politics.

If the PIRA didn't exist why are SF still shouting about "Up da Ra" at events in celebration?

It would be a bit stupid shouting about something that didn't exist?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is no 'army'.

I'll let you work the rest out yourself.

There never was an army.

Just a collection of organised criminals and thugs that styled themselves as an army.

joeguevara wrote: »

Am I seeing things that the following has been posted:

The IRA contribute to Sinn Fein - the same IRA that has been repeatedly denied as not existing
The Army Council meet regularly

Fcucking hell - this is an enlightening day.

I'm glad you're so enlightened that some former members of the IRA probably still get together to discuss peaceful ways to promote a United Ireland.

I'm pretty sure most people would have thought that anyway, is there something wrong with that?

joeguevara wrote: »

Not paranoid. Just never heard anyone admit openly that the army council still meet up regularly and now are involved (an army council) in democratic politics, as has been posted over the last 30 minutes. It really is a step forward.

There is no 'army'.

I'll let you work the rest out yourself.