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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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AbusesToilets

clsmooth wrote: »

I think he just lacks the required pace/dynamism at the top level. I have a lot of time for him and think he should have started during the WC when it was obvious the back row balance was out of kilter. The type of player you want on a heavy pitch against a big set of forwards. Not sure he’s the man for a faster gameplan which we seem to be trying to move towards.

You could be right. I've never thought he was particularly lacking relative to his peers. He's good with the ball, can pass and make a break. Prior to the WC, I figured maybe he was told he wasn't making enough of an impact, but when you compare it to other players, it seems odd.

[Deleted User]

dor843088 wrote: »

If you were in the Ireland dressing room facing England South Africa France . Who would you want to be in the trenches with ? A bunch of clean shaven nice guys ? Unless we look beyond the privileged class we will always be bullied.

yawn

Dog Botherer

dor843088 wrote: »

If you were in the Ireland dressing room facing England South Africa France . Who would you want to be in the trenches with ? A bunch of clean shaven nice guys ? Unless we look beyond the privileged class we will always be bullied.

absolutely right. we should be raiding juvie centres and fast tracking the most mischievous miscreants we can find into the academies.

dor843088

If you were in the Ireland dressing room facing England South Africa France . Who would you want to be in the trenches with ? A bunch of clean shaven nice guys ? Unless we look beyond the privileged class we will always be bullied.

clsmooth

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Seems his card was marked a long time ago. I'd love to know what areas exactly he's viewed as deficient, never made sense to me.

I think he just lacks the required pace/dynamism at the top level. I have a lot of time for him and think he should have started during the WC when it was obvious the back row balance was out of kilter. The type of player you want on a heavy pitch against a big set of forwards. Not sure he’s the man for a faster gameplan which we seem to be trying to move towards.

AbusesToilets

yerrahbah wrote: »

Am I right in saying that since Farrell took over Ruddock hasn't been named in an Ireland squad?

(apart from the time he named a 45 man squad)

He went to the RWC but in the squads named since it would seem the likes of Deegan, Doris, O'Donoghue and Connors have all passed him out in the pecking order

And you'd have to imagine that Conan when fit is ahead of him too

Seems his card was marked a long time ago. I'd love to know what areas exactly he's viewed as deficient, never made sense to me.

yerrahbah

Am I right in saying that since Farrell took over Ruddock hasn't been named in an Ireland squad?

(apart from the time he named a 45 man squad)

He went to the RWC but in the squads named since it would seem the likes of Deegan, Doris, O'Donoghue and Connors have all passed him out in the pecking order

And you'd have to imagine that Conan when fit is ahead of him too

WeleaseWoderick

Apart from the half backs, it is hard to see where anyone can have much gripe with the way players are being brought through. The squad has evolved a huge amount in the last couple of years. Teams also need time to build and then rebuild.

I'd personally love to see Craig Casey & Harry Byrne involved soon but maybe the thought process is give them the starts at their clubs over the next few weeks and then bring them into a Six Nations squad. I'd also have Rhys Ruddock in ahead of POM for the bench too and I would be critical enough about that decision.

The list of players missing for the French game that would challenge to be in the 23 or starting is huge (Kilcoyne, Kelleher, Furlong, Henderson, Baird, Leavy, Ringrose, Larmour, Earls).

France finally start to get their house in order (but still finishing 2nd) after 10 years of nonsense, and they are suddenly held up as some model that we are stupid not to have followed...

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

sorry i meant the poster disagreeing with them. i also share that view. which i know is unpopular

Fair enough.

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

What was he saying about central contracts?

sorry i meant the poster disagreeing with them. i also share that view. which i know is unpopular

we're at a stage where some of the other provinces have Will Connors and Hugo Keenans and the national squad is at a stage and in a tournament where we need to try different combinations. We can't get into a scenario where lads are cherry picked and set in stone. Particularly from a nothing match against one of the worst national teams. Schmidts or at least those who knew him , the argument of they know the system etc is perhaps true but its definitely a factor and its what i mean in regards to will connors. Like surely Lowry justifies a place as much as Keenan? Penny with Connors. But we'll get into the same tail spin of well Will and HUgo know the squad etc and 30 or 40 caps later others in better form will be scratching their backsides. its a never ending story in Irish rugby. Now Keenan looks a good addition mind.

this shouldn't even be up for debate. we know its a factor. The cap numbers are one of the biggest clues etc Healy on a hundred, Murray nearly there etc. also We have nearly the same number as most other squads with ten caps or less. Yet the ages are completely different. Ours are in their late twenties.

I'll wait till the 13th for proper outrage. i'll wait and see.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

It was in relation to what he was saying about central contracts.

Will Connors? What was he saying about central contracts?

Niallof9

aloooof wrote: »

You're using Will Connors, with 2 caps, as an example of how conservative the selection has been?

Look, there is something to the point you're making, particularly at half-back. But can we wait and see who he selects first?

To my mind, Farrell has shown a willingness to change in the face of a poor performance e.g. the back row just didn't perform against England. In the next game (albeit 6 months apart due to Covid) he brought in Connors and Doris.

no i'm using him as an example of how things can get set in stone quite quickly in Irish rugby. Like now he's an automatic selection seemingly. He's played 19 games for Leinster. He was great against Italy (who are rubbish) It was in relation to what he was saying about central contracts. the old its harder to get out of the squad than in. Its been a factor in Irish rugby for decades. Compounded by central deals. Personally i don't think he's good enough at the top end if Ireland want to compete. We really need Leavy to get back to his best quickly.

i agree Andy can seem to make and stick with those changes more than any other coach we've had. that is one positive.

I will be extremely disappointed if we see the usual team versus Wales. And i will applaud him if he uses the tournament to develop things going forward.

aloooof

Niallof9 wrote: »

Like Will Connors was great against Italy. Against France he was grand. why does that secure him automatic selection ahead of any other viable option? penneys played about 3 less games than him for Leinster. yet people are arguing he's not a real viable option etc. Quick get Will on a central deal.

You're using Will Connors, with 2 caps, as an example of how conservative the selection has been?

Look, there is something to the point you're making, particularly at half-back. But can we wait and see who he selects first?

To my mind, Farrell has shown a willingness to change in the face of a poor performance e.g. the back row just didn't perform against England. In the next game (albeit 6 months apart due to Covid) he brought in Connors and Doris.

Tommybojangles

sydthebeat wrote: »

"the national"???

the band ???

No team/ band is above the National!!

sydthebeat

Tommybojangles wrote: »

Maybe it's like the Connacht thing 10 years ago. The national needs to bite the bullet and realise it's a development team for the provinces. Promising youngsters can learn their trade in test rugby and when they're ready to be regular starters they can go back and play for their province.

"the national"???

the band ???

Tommybojangles

Maybe it's like the Connacht thing 10 years ago. The national needs to bite the bullet and realise it's a development team for the provinces. Promising youngsters can learn their trade in test rugby and when they're ready to be regular starters they can go back and play for their province.

*just a joke, not trying to wind anyone up if anyone is preparing an angry reply

Niallof9

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Had a look at the comments on the42 and I agreed with Jim Demps. But the problem is not a willingness to change the squad. The problem is central contracts. They are a blight on the development of Irish rugby. They have to go or we will forever live in the past

totally agree and the stock answer is what about McGrath and Toner...

Yet all the evidence points to it being a factor in close calls. when you ringfence 12 guys of course it has an impact. you can't transfer them out etc, who knows whats inserted in some of the big ones. sponsorship pressures, personal relationships, losing face among selectors and the people who chose them. CM is apparently on what 700k. if you're the other scrumhalf outperforming him week in week out how does that work? do we really believe the IRFU would see value in JS,CM,POM sitting on the bench? that's about 1.6/1.7 million in wages. it sums up the central contracts. it keeps them here, but it can keep them here to the detriment of development.

it was great back in the day when it was needed. now you'll see utter bloodshed come contract renewals and their bluff would be called. nobody is beating down doors for some of these guys. Murray, Sexton, Pete all on the line. CJ deserves one. I love Sexton as a fellow club member and former team mate eons ago, but his time is over. If he got a central deal come the end of year , you will see the system for the house of cards that it is.

National contracts should either be increased in number, or all players should be essentially on provincial deals with any top ups or IRFU stuff a state secret. Openly having 12 lads in a 15 man team on ringfenced contracts is a disaster particularly when loads of them under perform consistently. Players need motivation and in professional sport like real life, money is a major factor in motivation and well being. It cannot be good for Andrew Conway to look across at Stockdale make mistake after mistake yet pick up about 100k more than him. it belies common sense, particularly in sport. Look at liverpools new wage model for example and in soccer if it goes pear shaped your're on the list.

as for the people giving out about the people giving out. its clearly going to be roughly the same 15 plus an earls etc. this is the real issue here. we need to see RK, Marmion, Lowe, and we need a difference at 9 and ten, we need to give McCloskey, Farrell a cut at it, back three as well. its not as black and white as saying there has been change. there has and there hasn't. And even if there wasn't lads left out as some claim, then boy are we in trouble.

Penny, Lyttle, Harry Byrne, Lowry, JJ, Casey, Hume, and a one or two others would be live options for any other 6 nations squad in a tournament like this. Look at Scotland, Wales and Englands squad for this. its a joke really and it smacks of the IRFU or AF going all out to win a nothing tournament to prove something. the reality is he'd get far more slack developing something real. That's before you even get to the bizarre exclusions of Cooney, Ruddock.

Like Will Connors was great against Italy. Against France he was grand. why does that secure him automatic selection ahead of any other viable option? penneys played about 3 less games than him for Leinster. yet people are arguing he's not a real viable option etc. Quick get Will on a central deal.

anyway if we see less of the usuals that will be something. if versus Wales we see CM, JS, KE, POM, CH then i think we are in a real spot of bother going forward and just repeating our past mistakes..yet again. i don't think anybody is saying Craig Casey needs to start against Wales, that's not the point.

anyway - https://www.the42.ie/ireland-prospects-casey-byrne-5256727-Nov2020/ The positive is he does seem willing to change things when **** hits the fan. That is positive.

Dog Botherer

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Had a look at the comments on the42 and I agreed with Jim Demps. But the problem is not a willingness to change the squad. The problem is central contracts. They are a blight on the development of Irish rugby. They have to go or we will forever live in the past

colombo-2.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&ssl=1

ElisaAtWar

Had a look at the comments on the42 and I agreed with Jim Demps. But the problem is not a willingness to change the squad. The problem is central contracts. They are a blight on the development of Irish rugby. They have to go or we will forever live in the past

Burkie1203

Paul Smeenus wrote: »

This is kind of where I am - but I'd go one further. It's not a rare opportunity, but a unique one. It just doesn't feel like we're taking full advantage. I dunno... maybe I am being a bit kneejerk.

Ed Byrne
Kelleher
O'Toole
Heffernan*
Doris
Deegan
Connors
Burns
Ross Byrne*
JGP
Keenan
Daly

All new this year (*or relatively new)

Add in Baird, Balacoune, Harry Byrne (& Connors) were added for development purposes in January to the original 6n squad. I would guess Baird and Balacoune would be in the squad but for injury. I would also hope to see the development option kept in 2021 6n (Casey, H Byrne, Hume, Hodnett maybe)

I would like to see us go with something different at half back in particular.

It's much easier to build around a settled enough squad adding in players bit by bit. We saw against Fiji a few years ago how a totally new side can struggle in these games.

v Wales

Healy Herring Porter Ryan Henderson Doris Connors Stander
JGP Byrne Lowe Aki Farrell Conway Keenan

Bench : Byrne Heffernan Ryan Beirne VDF Marmion Sexton Henshaw

Won't happen but still

Paul Smeenus

Rigor Mortis wrote: »

I agree with a huge amount of what you said, particularly in relation to the likes of Casey and also Harry Byrne in my opinion. Bring them into camp but then let them go back and get game time with their provinces, thats what they need.

However, these games provide a rare opportunity to give opportunity beyond the usual suspects. I would love to see each team, perhaps bar the england away game be a core of 5/6 30+ cap players and the balance of new or relatively inexperienced internationals. Farrell will never have a better chance to bring in a number of new caps. Im reminded of the Pacific islands game when we had the likes of BOD, Dempsey, Hickie and Stringer, but also a fair few less experienced and debuts for Heaslip, Lukey and Ferris.

This is kind of where I am - but I'd go one further. It's not a rare opportunity, but a unique one. It just doesn't feel like we're taking full advantage. I dunno... maybe I am being a bit kneejerk.

Rigor Mortis

Tommybojangles wrote: »

I dont get the attitude of just throw legions of new players at it and hope some of them stick, just because you've decided this competition doesn't matter

I agree with a huge amount of what you said, particularly in relation to the likes of Casey and also Harry Byrne in my opinion. Bring them into camp but then let them go back and get game time with their provinces, thats what they need.

However, these games provide a rare opportunity to give opportunity beyond the usual suspects. I would love to see each team, perhaps bar the england away game be a core of 5/6 30+ cap players and the balance of new or relatively inexperienced internationals. Farrell will never have a better chance to bring in a number of new caps. Im reminded of the Pacific islands game when we had the likes of BOD, Dempsey, Hickie and Stringer, but also a fair few less experienced and debuts for Heaslip, Lukey and Ferris.

AbusesToilets

Herpes is easier to be rid of than POM

aloooof

sydthebeat wrote: »

Theres two selection changes.

Earls, kearney, Stockdale to Conway, Stockdale, Keenan is down to one retirement and one injury.

I personally hope to god we don't see a Murray Sexton partnership for any of these autumn games.

I don't think we can know whether Earls would have bee selected straight back into the starting 15 tho, which is why I included his as Injury/Selection?

Stockdale's move to FB too, even if only positional, is as big a change in style to RK as we could have had.

Agreed on the half-back situation tho, would very much like to see some changes there.

sydthebeat

aloooof wrote: »

Pos | 2019 RWC | 2020 6N |
15 | Kearney | Stockdale | Retirement
14 | Earls | Conway | Injury/Selection?
13 | Ringrose | Henshaw | Injury enforced
12 | Henshaw | Aki | Injury
11 | Stockdale | Keenan | Selection/Retirement (of RK)
10 | Sexton | Sexton
9 | Murray | Murray
8 | Stander | Stander
7 | VdF | Connors | Selection
6 | POM | Doris | Selection
5 | Ryan | Ryan
4 | Henderson | Beirne | Injury enforced
3 | Furlong | Porter | Injury enforced
2 | Best | Herring | Retirement
1 | Healy | Healy

For comparison purposes, here's the team that finished the RWC vs the team that finished the 6 Nations. There's quite a bit of change in there.

A lot of it was enforced through retirement or injury, but that is still change that has to be managed. There's also been 3-4 selection decisions. That seems like a decent amount of change to me. Hopefully we'll see some more over the next few weeks.

Theres two selection changes.

Earls, kearney, Stockdale to Conway, Stockdale, Keenan is down to one retirement and one injury.

I personally hope to god we don't see a Murray Sexton partnership for any of these autumn games.

Tommybojangles

At a quick glance theres 1/3 of the squad who weren't there last year. What do people want,
Craig F****** Casey who's played about 10 games for Munster? So he should
(a) Sit on the Ireland bench for 5 weeks
(b) Be thrown in to get eaten alive by the Welsh and English pack or
(C) Be Munsters starting scrum half and earn his way into the squad

England had a time when they seemed to have new flavout of the month players parachuted in every time the six nations came around and it just happened to coincide with them being absolute Sh1te under Johnson.
Why cant some people disagree with one or 2 calls in a squad without resorting to
"Irish rugby is inherently and permanently broken and anyone who disagrees is deranged"

The last time I can remember a player who wasnt getting a look in despite being legitimately way ahead of what was there was Mike Ross about 10 years ago.

I dont get the attitude of just throw legions of new players at it and hope some of them stick, just because you've decided this competition doesn't matter

feargale

Stockdale's attacking is brilliant but his defending is lacking. He should be on the wing, not at full back.

Dubinusa

aloooof wrote: »

Pos | 2019 RWC | 2020 6N |
15 | Kearney | Stockdale | Retirement
14 | Earls | Conway | Injury/Selection?
13 | Ringrose | Henshaw | Injury enforced
12 | Henshaw | Aki | Injury
11 | Stockdale | Keenan | Selection/Retirement (of RK)
10 | Sexton | Sexton
9 | Murray | Murray
8 | Stander | Stander
7 | VdF | Connors | Selection
6 | POM | Doris | Selection
5 | Ryan | Ryan
4 | Henderson | Beirne | Injury enforced
3 | Furlong | Porter | Injury
2 | Best | Herring | Retirement
1 | Healy | Healy

For comparison purposes, here's the team that finished the RWC vs the team that finished the 6 Nations. There's quite a bit of change in there.

A lot of it was enforced through retirement or injury, but that is still change that has to be managed. There's also been 3-4 selection decisions. That seems like a decent amount of change to me.

Agreed! But the selecting of Murray? It's bizarre. Sexton imo, needs to be a sub. Time to give the reins to RB or Carberry.

aloooof

Dubinusa

We are thin at lh. Very thin! Why not bring in E.O.S? I get that Jack McGrath has been very average. Obviously, he was Healy's successor and was expected to step right in. Ed Byrne imo, is not international quality. We are very depth deprived right now, with very little on the horizon.
In the long term. I suppose Milne will be gauged to see his progress. Perhaps, Wycherly too. But both of them are a long way off. They're still academy players?
I still don't see the point of bringing Earl's back. I know he's a quality player but his age is working against him. Daly and Keenan are both playing superb and I think are both very capable. Lowe is now qualified and should get a run. It makes no sense?
I suppose Herring will be in situ for the immediate future. Kelleher being injured has been a kick in the nuts. It's a good chance to give him a crack at the shirt this upcoming series.
I reckon that Larmour will now be viewed as our 1st choice fb. I think he could be very good, but he'd probably be a better option on a wing. Keenan imo could be the 15 going forward!