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US Presidential Election 2020 Thread II - Judgement Day(s)

Quin_Dub

Continuation thread from here

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Everyone will want to be active in this thread over the next few days , but there will be zero tolerance for Forum rule breaches.

Keep it Sensible , Civil and Polite please.

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Tell me how

weldoninhio wrote: »

Think Trump will win. But as a bet I picked Harris as next President. Anyone else think Biden looked a bit wobbly/unwell on the campaign trail?? If he does win will he make it to next February in full fettle??

Inauguration is in January.

[Deleted User]

weldoninhio wrote: »

Think Trump will win. But as a bet I picked Harris as next President. Anyone else think Biden looked a bit wobbly/unwell on the campaign trail?? If he does win will he make it to next February in full fettle??

I was going to ask the same earlier..

weldoninhio

Think Trump will win. But as a bet I picked Harris as next President. Anyone else think Biden looked a bit wobbly/unwell on the campaign trail?? If he does win will he make it to next February in full fettle??

Brian?

Memnoch wrote: »

Libertarianism is actually thinly disguised corporatism.

Right libertarianism is, it's actually anarcho capitalism.

Tell me how

Memnoch wrote: »

Except there is no such thing as anarchy. Anarchy is simply a dictatorship of the wealthy. Removal of governmental protections allows individuals and "Corporations" (who are people too right?) to run rampant and subjugate anyone without the resources to stand up to them.

Libertarianism is actually thinly disguised corporatism.

It's governance by Jeff Bezos, Charles Koch, Mark Zuckerburg and Elon Musk without the burden of elections.

Overheal

ELM327 wrote: »

Luckily for you there is
https://www.politicalcompass.org/

Uh yeah so how is he a leftist? Waiting...

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020

Memnoch

droidus wrote: »

It's basically some kind of anarchist. Bottom left of the political compass, the best corner.

Except there is no such thing as anarchy. Anarchy is simply a dictatorship of the wealthy. Removal of governmental protections allows individuals and "Corporations" (who are people too right?) to run rampant and subjugate anyone without the resources to stand up to them.

Libertarianism is actually thinly disguised corporatism.

Chips Lovell

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Alright, I know it's election day and people are a bit excited, but please do read the charter and heed it. We don't want to have to issue any more sanctions.

Remember, this is a discussion and debate forum. Don't post if your post consists solely or mostly of:

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pixelburp

"leftist" is as unhelpful and lazy a reduction in conversation as "woke", in meaning so much while nothing at all at the same time. Obviously with extreme right wing beliefs everything seems leftist in comparison, but by any sober metric - including the website given above - Joe Biden is NOT a "leftist". A point easily self evident by the simple fact his policies are not necessarily embraced by the actual left wing of the Democrats. Not being Trump is carrying a lot of water at the moment. He's not "Medicare for all", a key tenet of the actual left wing. Kamala Harris' history as AG is not especially "soft" on crime; neither individuals are especially leftist - unless as said the individual is already particularly right of centr.

UpBack1234

ELM327 wrote: »

Most Irish parties are centrist. FF would be leftist. Just not as much as the loony left that we have here. AOC would fit in well in SF/AAA/PBP/SD etc

Micheál Martin's joint press conference with the head of Pfizer Ireland yesterday would beg to differ re his being 'leftist'!

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Most Irish parties are centrist. FF would be leftist. Just not as much as the loony left that we have here. AOC would fit in well in SF/AAA/PBP/SD etc

FF are only left-wing in an American sense. FF are centre-right for most things and Leo has FG heading off to the far right.

Here's a good couple of maps for you:

Psychedelic Hedgehog

ELM327 wrote: »

All of the above are left of center. I'm an extreme right libertarian

“Shadwell hated all southerners and, by inference, was standing at the North Pole.”

― Terry Pratchett, Good Omens: The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch

VinLieger

ELM327 wrote: »

Most Irish parties are centrist. FF would be leftist. Just not as much as the loony left that we have here. AOC would fit in well in SF/AAA/PBP/SD etc

Good lord your political compass has been utterly warped by US politics.

ELM327

VinLieger wrote: »

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have exactly the same policies would you describe them as left or right of centre?

Most Irish parties are centrist. FF would be leftist. Just not as much as the loony left that we have here. AOC would fit in well in SF/AAA/PBP/SD etc

droidus

Brian? wrote: »

Unfortunately you need to subscribe to Libertarian Socialist monthly to read our critiques of mainstream anarchism.

I am not trying to attack anarchism here, I agree with the aims just not always the methods.

Its grand, I'll meet you at the next radical left AGM. There's a good bomb making seminar in one of the breakout rooms where we can settle our differences.

Brian?

ELM327 wrote: »

Fiscal: Increased taxation, more government control and spending

A more level tax base, not actually increased taxation.

Social: Socialized medicine and enforced state healthcare even for those whose private plans are better coverage or cheaper. Interference in healthcare, infringing upon citizens rights and states rights (eg gun control, planned parenthood, defunding police - Kamala wants this even if he claims not to)

Biden doesn't stand for socialised medicine.

All of the above are left of center. I'm an extreme right libertarian. So I don't agree with authoritarian policies like Biden's proposed big government, nor do I agree with infringing on rights of citizens. A reminder that, in america, the point of the constitution is not to grant rights to citizens, but rather to grant rights to the federal government, as the right of citizens to be free and states to self govern is absolute.

Many right wing people agree with increased government regulation; anti abortion, anti gay marriage etc..

Which is my point. Neither left nor right are homogenous groups.

Brian?

droidus wrote: »

Feck. I guess I should be paying more attention to anarchist monthly. I thought it was all about mutual aid, defending against the worst excesses of the state and building resilient self governing community structures.

Unfortunately you need to subscribe to Libertarian Socialist monthly to read our critiques of mainstream anarchism.

I am not trying to attack anarchism here, I agree with the aims just not always the methods.

Canice Picklington

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, he's probably not a rabid anti semite..

But of course, orange man bad..

Moving the goalposts now.

A bit of anti-Semitism is apparently grand, just not "rabid" anti-Semitism.

Whatever that's supposed to mean.

VinLieger

ELM327 wrote: »

Fiscal: Increased taxation, more government control and spending

Social: Socialized medicine and enforced state healthcare even for those whose private plans are better coverage or cheaper. Interference in healthcare, infringing upon citizens rights and states rights (eg gun control, planned parenthood, defunding police - Kamala wants this even if he claims not to)

All of the above are left of center. I'm an extreme right libertarian. So I don't agree with authoritarian policies like Biden's proposed big government, nor do I agree with infringing on rights of citizens. A reminder that, in america, the point of the constitution is not to grant rights to citizens, but rather to grant rights to the federal government, as the right of citizens to be free and states to self govern is absolute.

Fine Gael and Fianna Fail have exactly the same policies would you describe them as left or right of centre?

8-10

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well we don’t get nbc or msnbc or Fox in Ireland. I’m sure all Channels will have an option on their dedicated apps(cnn did in the 2018 mid term elections) so we shall see.

You'll get most stations' live feeds on YouTube

I went with ABC 4 years ago as they had an app with the Apple TV and they were pretty good actually.

Canice Picklington

Tell me how wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything?

It's straight from the "Ron Atkinson signed a few black players so therefore cannot be a racist" school of denial.

ELM327

Tell me how wrote: »

What has that got to do with anything?

Showing that he wouldnt be an antisemite. Same as the relocation to Jerusalem would show.
In fact Trump and his base would be closer to Zionists than antisemites.

ELM327

Brian? wrote: »

What left of center policies does Biden have?

Fiscal: Increased taxation, more government control and spending

Social: Socialized medicine and enforced state healthcare even for those whose private plans are better coverage or cheaper. Interference in healthcare, infringing upon citizens rights and states rights (eg gun control, planned parenthood, defunding police - Kamala wants this even if he claims not to)

All of the above are left of center. I'm an extreme right libertarian. So I don't agree with authoritarian policies like Biden's proposed big government, nor do I agree with infringing on rights of citizens. A reminder that, in america, the point of the constitution is not to grant rights to citizens, but rather to grant rights to the federal government, as the right of citizens to be free and states to self govern is absolute.

Tell me how

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you actually high?..

Trumps daughter has converted to Judaism..

What has that got to do with anything?

droidus

Brian? wrote: »

Ideologically, mostly. But not completely.

Many anarchists believe in violent revolution to bring down the state, that's an anathema to libertarian socialism

Feck. I guess I should be paying more attention to anarchist monthly. I thought it was all about mutual aid, defending against the worst excesses of the state and building resilient self governing community structures.

Brian?

ELM327 wrote: »

NBC and CNN are on sky
I regularly watch MSNBC and Fox News live on youtube.

It's clearly wrong, if it has biden at right of center.

What left of center policies does Biden have?

droidus

ELM327 wrote: »

NBC and CNN are on sky
I regularly watch MSNBC and Fox News live on youtube.

It's clearly wrong, if it has biden at right of center.

Or perhaps it's completely accurate and aligns with decades of public statements, votes and policies and your entire perception of right and left is warped beyond recognition?

VinLieger

ELM327 wrote: »

It's clearly wrong, if it has biden at right of center.

Compared to the rest of the world the majority of the democratic party is right of centre, you can refuse to accept this as a fact but it doesn't make it any less true.

Brian?

droidus wrote: »

What the?! Of course you can. Lib Soc and anarchist are basically interchangeable terms, ideologically speaking.

Ideologically, mostly. But not completely.

Many anarchists believe in violent revolution to bring down the state, that's an anathema to libertarian socialism

ELM327

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well we don’t get nbc or msnbc or Fox in Ireland. I’m sure all Channels will have an option on their dedicated apps(cnn did in the 2018 mid term elections) so we shall see.

NBC and CNN are on sky
I regularly watch MSNBC and Fox News live on youtube.

droidus wrote: »

Its funny you mention that as it completely demolishes your argument. Here is their rating of the 2020 candidates based on public statements, manifestos etc.

And here are all the dem primary contenders. As you can see even Bernie Sanders, the radical left bogeyman is barely to the left of most centre left European politicians, which is to say, barely left at all.

It's clearly wrong, if it has biden at right of center.