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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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CMcsporty

OneLungDavy wrote: »

I actually thought Stockdale done well in attack, he constantly stepped up in that second half and took the game to France. There's just always two or three mistakes in him every game, decision time for Farrell and co.

He did everything you would expect of an attacker of his capability.
What’s more he could have done most of it with him still at 11.

It’s a crying shame to see him last night at FB.

This is very much on Andy Farrell.
He tried something new v Italy.
I didn’t think it was a good selection but at least you could say he tried something.
It didn’t work in that game but to persist with it v France was an even more damming indictment of his selection.

What did he see in his defensive performances in the 3/4 weeks of training and numerous matches this season for Ulster that convinced him it was the right decision.
That’s the most worrying part for me.

Coaches love and die by their selections
It was very unfair to ask a player to try and deliver a performance that they are not equipped to do.

It’s like asking a striker in soccer to cover back for corners and set pieces.
Disaster waiting to happen.
They usually foul someone, give away a penalty or score an own goal.

Farrell is learning on the job. I hope he has learned his lesson and picks a FB at FB - Keenan or Daly.
I also hope he continues with Larmour at FB. He’s not the finished article by any stretch but he has shown his qualities in attack and potential in defense and is a good reader of the game.

sydthebeat

theVersatile wrote: »

Comparing scrum halves through metres made, come on...

Comparing scrum halfs as a threat with ball in hand....

Or maybe you think 9s should never run with the ball????

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

We have a rugby setup that wales could only dream of.

We blow our own horn about it often enough on here.

Yes, but I was addressing the point re populations. Theres little point in using total number of people in the country as a metric. Thats all I was trying to say.

WhoamI2022

sydthebeat wrote: »

Comparing scrum halfs as a threat with ball in hand....

Or maybe you think 9s should never run with the ball????

France always play a game with the 9 more critical than the 10....Ireland play with the 10 the most critical. Not really a comparison

Murray doesn’t have a running threat anymore, that’s not saying he had a bad game.

sydthebeat

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

France always play a game with the 9 more critical than the 10....Ireland play with the 10 the most critical. Not really a comparison

Murray doesn’t have a running threat anymore, that’s not saying he had a bad game.

I never said that.

If you read my post I was saying that his game is limited now compared to what it used to be, and I was merely posing questions as to why that would be.

Its not like he had a 10 outside him that had the ability to skin players and run huge numbers.... So our 9 and 10 are not really seen as an immediate running threat... Which makes it so damn easy for defensive lines to drift and squeeze.

At least JGP made a couple of snipes when he came on which will turn eyes inwards.... I'm just saying that, imo of course, Murray b needs to bring that back into his game a lot more

Enquiring

molloyjh wrote: »

We have 2 national sports that they don't have. We have soccer, which they both do have. We have more sports competing with rugby. Thats a simple fact.

I've already provided evidence that shows we could beat that French team. We already had done in 2019 despite our poor form. And had done reasonably comfortably. France hadn't improved before the RWC and we hadn't gotten any worse (or better).

You haven't provided proof that we could have beaten France, I've provided proof that we choke at world cups that trumps yours.

Also, you are using things that are hard to quantify in relation to excusing our shocking world cup record. Let's put some actual numbers to this and settle matters.

Registered players:
Ireland - 153,080
Scotland - 38,500
Wales - 50,557

That puts that excuse to bed, it's embarrassing for us, no way around it. In fact, these numbers below make it even more embarrassing:

Australia - 86952
New Zealand - 156893

Excuses about other sports, population and so on don't wash.

Enquiring

molloyjh wrote: »

Yes, but I was addressing the point re populations. Theres little point in using total number of people in the country as a metric. Thats all I was trying to say.

No, we should use the numbers playing the sport, don't you think?

irishbucsfan

Enquiring wrote: »

No, we should use the numbers playing the sport, don't you think?

Those aren't senior adult male rugby players though. Let's not be ridiculous here.

There's the same number of rugby clubs in Wales as there are in Ireland (theoretically more in Wales even). So do you think the average Irish rugby club has ~800 senior male players? A lot of them (including mine) struggle to get a full 2nds team out every week!

Enquiring

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Those aren't senior adult male rugby players though. Let's not be ridiculous here.

There's the same number of rugby clubs in Wales as there are in Ireland (theoretically more in Wales even). So do you think the average Irish rugby club has ~800 senior male players? A lot of them (including mine) struggle to get a full 2nds team out every week!

So facts and figures aren't enough, back to things that we can't quantify?

molloyjh

Enquiring wrote: »

You haven't provided proof that we could have beaten France, I've provided proof that we choke at world cups that trumps yours.

How? Ireland beating France in 2019 with the 2 sides having the same personnel and the same coaching staff is surely better than 4 year old "evidence". This is just getting bizarre now.

As for those numbers IBF has already addressed that. Those numbers are not pro players. Technically I've been one of those players in the past. And trust me, that means absolutely nothing at all.

irishbucsfan

Enquiring wrote: »

So facts and figures aren't enough, back to things that we can't quantify?

Do you actually think the average rugby club in Ireland has 800 senior players? :pac: Your facts and figures are useless and you don't understand them

I never said anything about things we can't quantify. I pointed out the Welsh and Scottish have around the same number of rugby clubs as we do. Do you think these are ghost clubs with no players, or...?

molloyjh

Enquiring wrote: »

So facts and figures aren't enough, back to things that we can't quantify?

Those figures aren't enough because of context, accuracy and relevance. Those things matter. Maybe not to you, but to the real world.

WhoamI2022

Enquiring wrote: »

You haven't provided proof that we could have beaten France, I've provided proof that we choke at world cups that trumps yours.

Also, you are using things that are hard to quantify in relation to excusing our shocking world cup record. Let's put some actual numbers to this and settle matters.

Registered players:
Ireland - 153,080
Scotland - 38,500
Wales - 50,557

That puts that excuse to bed, it's embarrassing for us, no way around it. In fact, these numbers below make it even more embarrassing:

Australia - 86952
New Zealand - 156893

Excuses about other sports, population and so on don't wash.

This is from World Rugby
Registered UnRegistered

Ireland 94,067 209,906
France 258,247 533,131
England 355,153 2,112,603
Scotland 46,050 182,131
Wales 107,959 107,959
New Zealand 156,074156,074
Australia 271,922477,031

In other words, the numbers you have provided as "proof" are a slight bit incorrect

hahashake

Ultimately playing numbers mean only so much. USA in theory has the playing numbers to be a top nation for example. But obviously the pipeline from underage to pro isn't there.

[Deleted User]

POM is leaving Ireland apparently

UAEguy2020

The talk about population is a cope out and just an excuse. What matters most of all is what you do with the resources at your disposal. If you are looking for excuses like population thats usually an indictation you arent making the most of your resources.

Also can we please stop this nonsense of claiming the world has come to an end because we lost a match? Are Ireland not allowed lose a match ever without this level of hysteria, if this all it takes maybe some on here need a different hobby. France are a year ahead of us in their development as Ibenez and Galtie (forgive my spelling) and it showed last night when the going got tough, once Farrell can build some momentum and hopefully does that this autumn cup we can head into the 6N with alot more game time behind us and see where we really stand.

If I do have to point out a criticism one thing we lacked last night that the other top teams have was our second distributer, France have Fickou (playing on the wing last night but hoenstly bar 9 and 10 the number on the back of the jersey means nothing in France when on the attack) England have Slade/Farrell, NZL have Barrett/McKenzie, SA have Le Roux/Willimse and if fit we have Ringrose or potentially Carbery for the moment. To give Farrell sympathy he hasnt really had much time with any of these players as they have been injured too much so we havent got to see what the vision is but I feel Ringrose would have made a huge difference last night in varrying our attack.

PS. What does "unregistered" mean in this case?

Enquiring

molloyjh wrote: »

How? Ireland beating France in 2019 with the 2 sides having the same personnel and the same coaching staff is surely better than 4 year old "evidence". This is just getting bizarre now.

As for those numbers IBF has already addressed that. Those numbers are not pro players. Technically I've been one of those players in the past. And trust me, that means absolutely nothing at all.

Ireland lost to Japan and then got destroyed by New Zealand. Wales beat France and then ran the World cup champions close.

UAEguy2020

Enquiring wrote: »

Ireland lost to Japan and then got destroyed by New Zealand. Wales beat France and then ran the World cup champions close.

And then the world champions smashed England

Conclusion = Wales > England

Right?

shootermacg

We're lacking a bit of heft in the pack. Beirne to 6, Roux or Kleyn in as TH lock to provide some heavy carrying. Cronin on the bench at 2.

We really do not need handling errors leading to soft tries, so, Daly to 15, Keenan to the wing. VDF in at 7.

UAEguy2020

hahashake wrote: »

Ultimately playing numbers mean only so much. USA in theory has the playing numbers to be a top nation for example. But obviously the pipeline from underage to pro isn't there.

Hence why player numbers is a totally irrelevant stat. What matter's is making the most of what you have at your disposal.

UAEguy2020

shootermacg wrote: »

We're lacking a bit of heft in the pack. Beirne to 6, Roux or Kleyn in as TH lock to provide some heavy carrying. Cronin on the bench at 2.

We really do not need handling errors leading to soft tries, so, Daly to 15, Keenan to the wing. VDF in at 7.

Based on what? Bar afew scrums last our packed matched up well to the French pack (better than I expected). Lack of heft wasnt why we lost last night. All its doing is distracting from areas that do need fixing for example, like I said earlier, the need for a 2nd distributer.

molloyjh

Enquiring wrote: »

Ireland lost to Japan and then got destroyed by New Zealand. Wales beat France and then ran the World cup champions close.

I'm sorry, how does that apply in any way to how we might have fared against France? I mean its all true, but I don't see any relevance to what we're talking about.

Put it this way. Wales and Ireland both beat France in the 2019 6Ns. Wales beat France in the RWC. Therefore its reasonable to suggest Ireland would have won that game too. This isnt tricky logic. Theres no complexity here at all. I'm not sure what the issue is.

Enquiring

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do you actually think the average rugby club in Ireland has 800 senior players? :pac: Your facts and figures are useless and you don't understand them

I never said anything about things we can't quantify. I pointed out the Welsh and Scottish have around the same number of rugby clubs as we do. Do you think these are ghost clubs with no players, or...?

molloyjh wrote: »

Those figures aren't enough because of context, accuracy and relevance. Those things matter. Maybe not to you, but to the real world.

WhoamI2022 wrote: »

This is from World Rugby
Registered UnRegistered

Ireland 94,067 209,906
France 258,247 533,131
England 355,153 2,112,603
Scotland 46,050 182,131
Wales 107,959 107,959
New Zealand 156,074156,074
Australia 271,922477,031

In other words, the numbers you have provided as "proof" are a slight bit incorrect

hahashake wrote: »

Ultimately playing numbers mean only so much. USA in theory has the playing numbers to be a top nation for example. But obviously the pipeline from underage to pro isn't there.

There are a number of myths used to try to defend Ireland's embarrassing rugby world cup record and ro try to say we do well for an island our size.

Myth 1 - We are a small island and we don't have the population to compete.

That's easily squashed, we have a bigger population that Scotland, Wales, New Zealand so that excuse just doesn't wash. When that is pointed out, myth 2 comes along.

Myth 2 - Population doesn't matter because we have so few players as we have other sports.

The registered players from any source tells us that this is nonsense, we have more than many countries.

We'll have to face up to facts and bust myth 3.

Myth 3 - We're punching above our weight.

To not have made a semi final in a 10 team competition is embarrassing. Looking at the playing numbers, the resources etc. we're punching below our weight.

Enquiring

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

And then the world champions smashed England

Conclusion = Wales > England

Right?

No, the conclusion is that we choked at a world cup again and Wales did far better.

Enquiring

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Hence why player numbers is a totally irrelevant stat. What matter's is making the most of what you have at your disposal.

And we are far behind others at that.

Bazzo

In the forwards Healy was decent, Porter, Ryan and Stander did well. Edit: oops, forgot to mention Beirne who did quite well

Backs: Sexton was ok, centres did well especially carrying against that big French pack. Aki was taking 3 with him every carry though he also put in that stupid kick in the second half and immediately got the shepherds crook for it. Henshaw carried well and had a worldy of a try. First choice partnership is definitely one of them at 12 with Ringrose outside to offer something a bit different but I don't really see it as an issue if we have to play them together.

Barely even noticed Conway was playing. Stockdale probably wishes nobody noticed he was playing. Keenan did very well.

I think a big issue that needs to be addressed is the captaincy...

UAEguy2020

Enquiring wrote: »

No, the conclusion is that we choked at a world cup again and Wales did far better.

I guess playing NZL in a QF and a 14 man France team is pretty comparable...

shootermacg

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Based on what? Bar afew scrums last our packed matched up well to the French pack (better than I expected). Lack of heft wasnt why we lost last night. All its doing is distracting from areas that do need fixing for example, like I said earlier, the need for a 2nd distributer.

You can carry and ruck all you want but if you aren't sucking in defenders, then you can huff and puff all day. Beirne carried well, his breakdown work was exceptional, so he deserves his place, but he's not a TH lock.

I feel that having Ryan as a TH lock is like making a donkey out of a racehorse. Having a big heavy option to do the basics will free Ryan up to do what he's good at. Ryan looked knackered out there, we can't keep flogging the guy or he'll burn out.

Enquiring

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm sorry, how does that apply in any way to how we might have fared against France? I mean its all true, but I don't see any relevance to what we're talking about.

Put it this way. Wales and Ireland both beat France in the 2019 6Ns. Wales beat France in the RWC. Therefore its reasonable to suggest Ireland would have won that game too. This isnt tricky logic. Theres no complexity here at all. I'm not sure what the issue is.

Do you forget your original message:

molloyjh wrote: »

The RWC semi final thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. Wales have made a few, but they did last year off the back of playing a poor France. If we had gotten that draw I would be comfortable saying we'd have made the SF too. We had already beaten that French side in 2019 despite our poor form. And in 2015 we suffered more injuries than any side could cope with, with the possible exception of NZ. Knock out rugby can be a funny thing that way. No matter how we had been playing in 2019 we'd have faced one of the top 2 sides in the world in the QF.

We were at the world cup, we lost to Japan and got ripped apart by New Zealand. We choked at the world cup again. There is nothing there to back up any claim that we would have beaten France. Wales didn't get a soft run, they got to the semi final on merit. They beat France and ran South Africa to 3 points.

kingofthekong

shootermacg wrote: »

We're lacking a bit of heft in the pack. Beirne to 6, Roux or Kleyn in as TH lock to provide some heavy carrying. Cronin on the bench at 2.

We really do not need handling errors leading to soft tries, so, Daly to 15, Keenan to the wing. VDF in at 7.

And drop Doris....for Kleyn or Roux.....are you having a laugh, our pack matched up very well against one of the biggest packs in the world bar two lineouts i think our pack was superior.