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Child Item

“S” Moderator

Peppa Cig

If your licence shows “S” - is there any restriction on the number of Mods you can have in your possession for that FA?

Don’t think so but Just curious....

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zeissman

No restrictions. You can go out and buy one every day if you want.

Lmklad

zeissman wrote: »

No restrictions. You can go out and buy one every day if you want.

I would be careful with that assumption. When applying for a certificate you are applying for a specific, individual firearm. When you select the modifier / scope you are applying for a specific modifier / scope for that specific, individual firearm. Section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 says “a person shall be guilty of a offence if he has in his possession or sells or transfers to another person a silencer unless the possession, sale or transfer is authorised in writing by the superintendent of the district in which the first-mentioned person resides”

solarwinds

Lmklad wrote: »

I would be careful with that assumption. When applying for a certificate you are applying for a specific, individual firearm. When you select the modifier / scope you are applying for a specific modifier / scope for that specific, individual firearm. Section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990 says “a person shall be guilty of a offence if he has in his possession or sells or transfers to another person a silencer unless the possession, sale or transfer is authorised in writing by the superintendent of the district in which the first-mentioned person resides”

The moderator has no serial number on it and the make or model of it is not mentioned on the application or the certificate, there is nothing stopping me having ten different moderators for the particular rifle that has the authorisation.

Lmklad

solarwinds wrote: »

The moderator has no serial number on it and the make or model of it is not mentioned on the application or the certificate, there is nothing stopping me having ten different moderators for the particular rifle that has the authorisation.

From the Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines:

“Under section 1 of The Firearms Act 1925 as amended by section 26 Criminal Justice Act 2006, silencers are defined as firearms. Statutory Instrument No: 21 of 2008: Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008, as amended, defines silencers as:
'Any devices fitted or capable of being fitted to the firearms for the purpose of moderating or reducing the sound made on their discharge '.

Silencers will not ordinarily be subject to certification. However, under section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990, a silencer must be authorised by a superintendent of the Garda Siochana provided the applicant is in possession of a firearms certificate for the firearm to which it is to be fitted and has demonstrated to the issuing person 'good reason' to acquire the silencer.”

The second paragraph clearly states “a” silencer must be authorised.

Feisar

Lmklad wrote: »

From the Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines:

“Under section 1 of The Firearms Act 1925 as amended by section 26 Criminal Justice Act 2006, silencers are defined as firearms. Statutory Instrument No: 21 of 2008: Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008, as amended, defines silencers as:
'Any devices fitted or capable of being fitted to the firearms for the purpose of moderating or reducing the sound made on their discharge '.

Silencers will not ordinarily be subject to certification. However, under section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990, a silencer must be authorised by a superintendent of the Garda Siochana provided the applicant is in possession of a firearms certificate for the firearm to which it is to be fitted and has demonstrated to the issuing person 'good reason' to acquire the silencer.”

The second paragraph clearly states “a” silencer must be authorised.

"a" silencer, not "the" silencer.

Lmklad

Feisar wrote: »

"a" silencer, not "the" silencer.

Yes. A as in singular. Not these or they. Anyway I’ve been in touch with my local FO who’s on the ball and will get an official answer

zeissman

Lmklad wrote: »

Yes. A as in singular. Not these or they. Anyway I’ve been in touch with my local FO who’s on the ball and will get an official answer

But you probably won't get a proper answer only the local supers view on it.

cookimonster

Lmklad wrote: »

Yes. A as in singular. .....

I'm kind of doubtful that your right and heres my rational

In the past I have applied for the use of a moderator on my already licensed and owned rifle.

I have also applied for the use of a moderator when applying for new rifles.

And only this year I applied for authorisation for all my rifles in respect of Night Vision Scope ( the only 'sights that need authorization)

Now in all cases I was never asked to furnish information as to the make model, calibre etc etc of the Mods or the details of my NV scope.

Cass

A point to remember is you will only be using one suppressor at a time. So if you own 10 for a single rifle you'll only be out with one at a time.

If on the off chance you decided to bring out a "spare" you still have the "S" on the license to say you have authorisation for the suppressor. After that i'd agree with the lads above about the suppressor not being specifically listed on your license due to lack of serial number, etc.

The last thing i'd say is be careful about making it seem like there are "loopholes". A quick SI will change it all and could possibly make our lives very difficult, very quickly.

No one is advocating for having a suppressor without authorisation so everyone will have the "S", so why tempt fate by arguing over the wording and making assumptions?

Vizzy

Cass wrote: »

A point to remember is you will only be using one suppressor at a time. So if you own 10 for a single rifle you'll only be out with one at a time.

The same applies if you have 2 barrels, but you need a licence for each.

Personally I agree with you ( and its only my opinion, obviously) that once you have an "S" on your licence then you can have multiple moderators.

Sometimes I think that we ,as shooters, over analyse stuff.

Just can't see the Gardai being able to enforce the fact that you have one or multiple moderators.

The pigeon man

There is a small chance that gardaí will stop you while out shooting. I've never been asked, in years of shooting.

In the unlikely event you are stopped, you may be asked to produce your license. It is even more unlikely that the Garda will know that your moderator requires authorisation.

In the unlikely event that the Garda knows that a moderator requires authorisation he is highly unlikely to go searching your person for another moderator, given that he has just verified that the moderator fitted to your firearm is authorised.

This debate is really just academic.

zeissman

A mate of mine in a different area had an argument with the super about this issue.
The super in the area made everyone get their rifle serial number engraved on their moderator before he granted it.
My mate told him there was no point as once he had the S on his licence he could buy another moderator the next day.
Super said that was not the case and got quite angry with him.

Cass

Vizzy wrote: »

The same applies if you have 2 barrels, but you need a licence for each..

Only if they're off different calibers. The same caliber and, as Billy Connelly would say, you can have as much as you like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRUL8sqE7H8

Cass

zeissman wrote: »

The super in the area made everyone get their rifle serial number engraved on their moderator before he granted it. .

Wonder what happened if the chap sold it?

Would have scratch out the old serial number and the new owner get it engraved with the new serial number? Then if the mod was "damaged" from constant engraving would the value be severely reduced and who would compensate you for being forced to do this?

This is what was meant above by over analyzing. Not getting at you, simply elaborating on a point. The OP asked a question, got a straight forward and correct answer.

For me its a case of get license, get "S" on license, buy suppressor(s), shoot, be happy, don't look for trouble because it'll find you quick enough without going searching for it.

zeissman

There is a different super in that area now but he is also making guys get the mod engraved.
Guys are doing it as they don't want to challenge him.

Feisar

Lmklad wrote: »

Yes. A as in singular. Not these or they. Anyway I’ve been in touch with my local FO who’s on the ball and will get an official answer

No, "a" is generic, "the" is specific. We don't have licences for a gun, we have licences for the gun.

The official answer may not tie in with the actual words in law. I've only a few modules of contract law behind me in a degree I done so I really don't know.

Wadi14

I have to laugh reading this thread you guys down the country have it so easy lol, I have a unique serial number engraved on my mod from my district, and the RFD would not give me the mod until he engraved the number on it. I do smile to myself every now and again thinking of the Super scratching his head if I told him I sold it to a guy in Cork lol. (now I haven't sold it but it shows you how daft something can get ).

zeissman

Wadi14 wrote: »

I have to laugh reading this thread you guys down the country have it so easy lol, I have a unique serial number engraved on my mod from my district, and the RFD would not give me the mod until he engraved the number on it. I do smile to myself every now and again thinking of the Super scratching his head if I told him I sold it to a guy in Cork lol. (now I haven't sold it but it shows you how daft something can get ).

It seems to be a donegal thing.
Not in my district yet but I will be challenging it if it does.

Wadi14

Aye I'm sure they thought they where being ever so efficient but I suppose they never thought that once you have S on the license you could buy a Mod anywhere lol. Or even sell the one you have.

solarwinds

At this rate they will want the serial number of your gun engraved on every round of ammo. The "S" is your authorisation for a mod no where does it say I can only have one.

lefthooker

My take on it,
The S permits me to possess and use a moderator with my firearm, but doesn’t state or limit how many I can possess. It’s not a license for a specific make, model or calibre as that info is not required.

This thing about engraving the mod with either the firearm serial number or another unique number is a crock of sh1te. It’s just more individual makey uppy nonsense. SI’s get away with this rubbish because they know lads are afraid to challenge them.

If the manufacturer is unwilling to do this are we voiding any warranty on the moderators by altering the finished item? I suspect it would render used mods worthless as a potential buyer could have to pay to have an old number removed and replaced with a new number. And what if I had a .30 cal mod and decided to use it on multiple rifle, eg .243 & 6.5 & 308. Would it be required to have all 3 serial numbers noted on the mod?

Wadi14

I agree with most of what you said apart form lads being afraid to challenge them, I personally have not been afraid to challenge on things I felt where important to me, but sticking a number on a .22lr mod did not rate at the top of my life priorities at the time, nor does it still. You have to look at it as I have a unique mod lol.

deerhunter1

solarwinds wrote: »

The moderator has no serial number on it and the make or model of it is not mentioned on the application or the certificate, there is nothing stopping me having ten different moderators for the particular rifle that has the authorisation.

Absolutely correct, most moderators are rated for a number of calibers anyway

[Deleted User]

I know the Gardi aren't too bright and I've come across some ignorant Gardi when dealing with them over firearms. But the idea of them demanding you deface and devalue your moderator is shocking to me. Surely that significantly reduces resale value if you were change it.

Would you scratch your license plate number on your car and wreck the paint job because some dumbass Garda told you too?

Sparks

Lmklad wrote: »

From the Garda Commissioner’s Guidelines:

“Under section 1 of The Firearms Act 1925 as amended by section 26 Criminal Justice Act 2006, silencers are defined as firearms. Statutory Instrument No: 21 of 2008: Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008, as amended, defines silencers as:
'Any devices fitted or capable of being fitted to the firearms for the purpose of moderating or reducing the sound made on their discharge '.

Silencers will not ordinarily be subject to certification. However, under section 7 of the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990, a silencer must be authorised by a superintendent of the Garda Siochana provided the applicant is in possession of a firearms certificate for the firearm to which it is to be fitted and has demonstrated to the issuing person 'good reason' to acquire the silencer.”

The second paragraph clearly states “a” silencer must be authorised.

Small side note - this is a large can of worms. Open at your own peril.
The Commissioner's Guidelines are guidelines only, not law. The law is very clear - the moderator is itself a firearm and you cannot legally possess one without a licence, but we've never created a mechanism in Ireland to issue a licence for a moderator. You get an "S" on your licence and that's as close as we've come to building that mechanism.
Legally, firearms do need an identifying mark - the serial number serves for rifles and shotguns and pistols and that's pretty uncontroversial, but for, say, crossbows or paintball markers, they don't come with a serial number so the law says you can be asked to put one on there - though the law says nothing about how you'd do that, whether by engraving, stamping, or writing it on with a sharpie. It's under section 3 paragraph 12 of the 1925 act as amended if you want to take a peek.

Up to now, we've not had to open this can of worms because the moderator is a component part, and mentioned as one in section one of the act, and nobody had a problem with that; but it's never - so far as I know anyway but I'm not an authority on every case - been tested in court. And it's the kind of thing that could easily be seen by a judge as being a reasonable request, so I'm not sure I'd want to take that case lest everyone with an S on their licence get a letter in the door demanding they put a mark on the moderator and then having to coordinate all those marks so that we don't get ten thousand moderators all stamped with a serial number of '0001'...

Sparks

The Rifleman wrote: »

Would you scratch your license plate number on your car and wreck the paint job because some dumbass Garda told you too?

No, but that's because you already have a Vehicle Identification Number on the frame of your car's chassis. It's an actual legal requirement, if they found it wasn't on your car, you'd probably have some interesting conversations in your future. And they regard it as so important that you wouldn't be allowed just scratch it into your paint job

[Deleted User]

Sparks wrote: »

No, but that's because you already have a Vehicle Identification Number on the frame of your car's chassis. It's an actual legal requirement, if they found it wasn't on your car, you'd probably have some interesting conversations in your future. And they regard it as so important that you wouldn't be allowed just scratch it into your paint job

Fair enough response. Maybe not the best analogy. But I still think it's a stupid requirement to force people to do that. It's our property and some ignorant super that is used to throwing his weight around shouldn't be allowed to force people to do whatever he wants.

Feisar

The Rifleman wrote: »

Fair enough response. Maybe not the best analogy. But I still think it's a stupid requirement to force people to do that. It's our property and some ignorant super that is used to throwing his weight around shouldn't be allowed to force people to do whatever he wants.

At the end of the day firearms are not a right in this country, they are a privilege.

Lmklad

zeissman wrote: »

But you probably won't get a proper answer only the local supers view on it.

Got a reply, and not from the local Super but from their Firearms Policy Section in Garda Headquarters, “you are indeed correct, an application has to be made for each silencer. The “S” on the certificate relates to use with the firearm listed on the certificate”

FO showed me the email be got.

[Deleted User]

Feisar wrote: »

At the end of the day firearms are not a right in this country, they are a privilege.

Yeah I know. But the same can be said about a lot of things. No one has the right to a driving license either.

We have laws and it would be better for everyone if the Gardi had a consistent interpretation of it instead of different Garda opinions being enforced around the country.

If moderators require a serial number because they are classified as firearms then dealers shouldn't be allowed sell them unless they comply with law. Another poster pointed out that us having the moderator engraved could void any warranty. Also, there should be some sort of standard across the board.