gormdubhgorm wrote: » Enoch Powell had an idea back in 1976 of inducing migrants to return 'home' offering £1000.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » So by using Enoch's logic it should be particularly easy to encourage them to leave the country.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Enoch Powell had an idea back in 1976 of inducing migrants to return 'home' offering £1000. About £7500 sterling today. I am not sure it would work for EU citizens as I am sure there would be some legal challenge. Barring an A50 exit from the EU I assume such inducements could only be applied to non-EU citizens? It could be a viable idea for those who believe deporting illegals or criminal migrants is enough. It could encourage those who do not permanently wish to set up home in Ireland to leave? Also Mr Powell stated he considered 200,000 of a migrants a year leaving Britain as "perfectly possible". And as "nothing". By contrast Ireland only has 85,400 immigrants as of April 2020.https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2020/#:~:text=The%20number%20of%20emigrants%20increased,%25)%20on%20the%20previous%20year. So by using Enoch's logic it should be particularly easy to encourage them to leave the country.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It is just the reality of what has being demonstrated in other countries like the UK and the USA. It is likely Ireland will follow the same path and it will be the disgruntled white working class who will be just waiting for a spark.
You don't have to be a sociologist to realise that.
Mules wrote: » This is an Irish forum, you sound ridiculous talking about white males, like someone in an American university sociology department.
TomTomTim wrote: » You can thank Reddit and Twitter for this nonsense. We honestly might as well be Americans at this stage.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » Sand and I are discussing someone born in Ireland to foreign parents, not someone who arrived.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » No it isn't. Culture is very important aswell. You seem to attach no importance to it at all and associate ethnicity solely with the nationality of the parents.
Who are you say to a person born in Ireland and raised in Ireland that Irish history isn't their history?
That is the height of arrogance. Polish history isn't your history because you weren't born and raised there. Nobody owns history regardless.
Why? My girlfriend is from South America but raised in Spain from a young age, and feels no affiliation for Ecuador at all. She considers herself Spanish.
I do not think it is unreasonable, I think it is wrong do it solely by that, which is what you are doing, and ignore things like culture.
A person can become Irish through naturalisation, nothing to do with their parent's descent.
And I am aware we are not America, it is, contrary what you may believe, me who is arguing against Americanism. I do not want the nonsense of someone whose great-great-grandfather was from Nigeria, who has never been there, has no ties to the place, doesn't know anything about the culture, going around calling themselves 'African' Irish because according to people like you they aren't truely Irish. They are (though they can call themselves what they like).
TomTomTim wrote: » I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.
That's exactly what we shouldn't be aiming for! It's sounds so American, and is why I said earlier to Sand that contrary to how it may seem it is in fact me who is arguing against Americanism.
Deleted User wrote: » Similar to the language? There's is too much romantic nonsense about the Irish language, and it's supposed importance with Irish people. I grew up in a dual language household, where we all spoke Irish in the home, and English with those outside the immediate family. My father is from the west of Ireland, and my mother, well, went with the flow, since they're both teachers. And I spoke Irish fluently until I entered secondary school, whereupon I lost it. Why? A combination of two things. First, the focus on how it was taught was awkward, draining any pleasure away from the language, and secondly, as an adult, there was no use for it. Although TBH I suspect a greater risk to national culture is from the Internet, social media, and conforming to internet opinions over time..
eleventh wrote: » I'm wondering why you put 'homeland' in quotes like that. It's like you disdain the idea. In those situations, you could say Russian-Irish, Spanish-Irish, African-Irish, etc.
Justin Credible Darts wrote: » tell me, if for example the kid and their patents arrive in Ireland, and the kid is 5 weeks old, knows nothing else but ireland, and is still living in Ireland by the age of 48 and never been to the parents "homeland", and the only culture they know is Irish, Are you telling me they are not Irish ? Despite decades here, decades of paying tax , voting etc ? having Irish mannerisms, understanding irish culture etc
eleventh wrote: » Culture can't be preserved in a melting pot of multi-culture. How would you describe 'American culture'.... It's anything you want it to be... Culture is something where there's general agreement among all who are part of it.
I am Irish and no matter where I live, how long I live there I will always be Irish; whether I like it or not. It's not something you pick and choose.
eleventh wrote: » It is an effect of multiculturalism. It's the main reason I'm against it - the dilution and (eventual) destruction of native culture and people. A situation where majority are nominally Irish ('consider themselves Irish' / Irish on paper) while the ethnicity/culture is gone, or exiled to small enclaves - similar to what happened with the language.
eleventh wrote: » We seem to be interpreting roots differently. If you arrive to a country but your parents were of a different nationality, you have no roots in that country. Roots come from background/heritage.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » The poster I was responding to said it was wishful thinking of mine that someone born in Ireland to foreign parents wouldn't have their roots here and nowhere else. I was pointing out that even people briefly raised abroad can have their roots firmly in the country they have spent the majority of their life.
eleventh wrote: » She is South American / Ecaudorian (or whatever's the correct wording there).
eleventh wrote: » I am Irish and no matter where I live, how long I live there I will always be Irish; whether I like it or not. It's not something you pick and choose.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » ... Culture is very important aswell.
... My girlfriend is from South America but raised in Spain from a young age, and feels no affiliation for Ecuador at all. She considers herself Spanish.
Deleted User wrote: » ... In any case, I'm more concerned with the effects of multiculturalism, and rising numbers of low-skilled migrants on the economy/welfare, than any fear of Irish people becoming a minority in their own country.
rgossip30 wrote: » . I wonder how long do they need to work to then claim welfare .
Sand wrote: » Which is why ancestry is the most important factor for ethnicity, as (going by your definition) it is the factor that distinguishes the ethnic Irish from other groups. And as I outlined already, the other characteristics of Irish ethnicity are passed down to Irish children by Irish parents. Ancestry is key.
Sand wrote: » So am I. We're talking about people who might read about Irish history, but it is not *their* history in the same way I might read about Polish history but it is not my history.
Sand wrote: » This assertion is just wishful thinking on your part.
Sand wrote: » I routinely stress that there is a difference between ethnic Irish and holding an Irish passport. You can apply for an Irish passport, but you cant apply to be ethnic Irish. The key point is that you think its unreasonable to define ethnic groups by descent, whereas the Irish nation-state routinely defines citizenship by descent regardless of your place of birth and regardless of cultural factors. Irish by descent, not by language tests, or multiple choice quizzes that anyone can pass or by drinking Guinness. Again, Ireland is not America.
Eric Cartman wrote: » Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » You have reduced ethnicity solely down to whose ones parents are. There is more to the definition then this (as per wiki) A person born and raised in Ireland to foreign parents can absolutely meet the above definition, and in fact can meet every part of it bar ancestry.
I am talking of people born in and raised in the country, not someone who has obtained citizenship through naturalisation.
Again, you equate everything to whose ones parents are, and ignore every other aspect that goes into an ethnicity. A person born and raised in Ireland will very likely have all their roots in this country.
With respect this is a bizarre argument. In 40 years when these people are all dead the stories will be confined to history books. A person born in this country will go through the Irish education system and learn Irish history more or less like everyone else does. Nobody ever regaled stories to me about the Irish famine, I learned about it in school.
The Law dictates nationality, not ethnicity. I am actually in favour of the current Law with regards to nationality. And ethnic descent is not necessarily a key factor, as your parents could be British and you would be entitled to an Irish Passport, or resident in Ireland for the preceding 4 years (but not as a student or Asylum seeker). One does not simply have to be born to Irish parents to obtain citizenship.
eleventh wrote: » I think the opposite is more likely. Africans in Ireland, for example, if surrounded by other Africans calling themselves Irish, will more likely do the same, than if they're a small minority.
Sand wrote: » I've bolded and underlined the important part of the above definition. Ethnic descent is what distinguishes ethnic Irish from non-Irish groups (and in turn those ethnic groups from the Irish). You can imitate a people, but it doesn't make you one of those people.
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.
Sand wrote: » Even apart from that, the common history of ethnic Irish people (anywhere from 800-10,000 years depending on your definition) is different from non-ethnic Irish groups which only settled in the last 10-20 years.
Sand wrote: » A child raised by ethnic Irish parents is going to have a different background than a child raised by non Irish parents - they will likely have a second (or third) language linked to their ethnic heritage and which may have been the language spoken in the home. Certainly, non-Irish parents will often push these children to not forget their roots in the old country. This is normal, and not to be prevented but the ethnic Irish have their roots in this country. Often these non-Irish groups will not be Christian, but even to the extent they are the Irish are increasingly post-Christian due in no small part to the Irish experience of an overwhelming Catholic Church.
Sand wrote: » My mother can relate stories to me of how friends and relatives of hers were treated under that regime. It's an Irish history passed down through the generations of Irish families. A child raised by non-Irish parents doesn't have that, though they may hear different stories about the old country from their non-Irish parents.
Sand wrote: » Even despite all that, Irish law and the constitution doesn't agree with you. The ethnic descent of your parents is the key factor in determining if you are Irish or not under Irish law. Where you are born is irrelevant. This isn't America.
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