Arthur Daley wrote: » https://www.irishtimes.com/news/irish-could-be-minority-ethnic-group-here-by-2050-professor-1.424517
eleventh wrote: » I don't agree with race-mixing as a policy. It happens and it's fine when it happens, but as a policy which we see being pursued in government advertising etc (I think that was mentioned earlier in thread or could have been another thread...) it's wrong. In multicultural societies, even where cultures stay together away from each other, there is still an amount of race-mixing. If you're in a school/college or area where it's about 50/50 Irish(or European) vs non-European, there's going to be relationships and children coming out of that.
Deleted User wrote: » Look. It's simple economics. ...... As such, with the high costs of living in Ireland, and further rising costs, migrant families, will be forced to conform, the same as Irish families to the practicalities of living in a first world nation. In that, you can have a large family with a ****ty lifestyle, or you can have a small family, and have a fairly reasonable lifestyle (should they upskill or re-educate to gain better employment).
..... the Government will have far less revenue available to provide in Welfare supports.. and the funds to allocate to minority groups. As such, those migrant groups will be forced by practical considerations to limit their families...
So... no.. Irish people aren't going to become a minority any time soon.
eleventh wrote: » Even in Ireland it's the lower economic groups who tend to have larger families. They don't seem to think, can I afford a child, but have a belief that it will work out. Wealth isn't a deciding factor. For some, having a large family (even 4 would be large these days) is a measure of success. So it's going to depend on the values. If they came from a culture where having x amount was normal/expected, they'll probably have the same amount here. Maybe the culture doesn't allow contraception etc.
I don't know about that. It would be interesting to see if birth rates dropped in Ireland say in the 80s in recession, or in times of prosperity (celtic tiger) increased. I think there are lots of variables, obviously, economics is one. You mentioned feminism as well. I can't comment much as to if that's declining or not. It doesn't seem to be.
It will happen sooner or later. Can't pin-point when exactly. We're going in the wrong direction anyway. If we don't turn it around, we pass it to the next generation when it’s going to be even more difficult to deal with, and it shouldn't be their problem - and they'll resent it. It's not how things should be. The time to deal with it really was 90s/early 00s. It should have been nipped in the bud then.
eleventh wrote: » I can't see how it won't happen with current trends. We are below replacement rate and non-Europeans pouring in at an alarming rate considering their much higher reproduction and with extended families having rights to join them. There's a never-ending stream of them and no signs of it slowing, whether in recession or not. We're a tiny island. We'll be overwhelmed within the next couple of decades at current rates, even faster than UK. It's very sad, but that's the direction it's going.
Yellow_Fern wrote: » It is interesting that RTE now promotes Black History month. Is this widespread? I am support celebrating Irish black history but there is so little that this history initiative is more like American History Month. Will we get a Polish history month or a Indian history month too is it just for black people for some reason?
CtevenSrowder wrote: » The idea of replacement is in a sense impossible. Unless in the space of a tiny few years we have over 5 million people enter into Ireland, which won't happen. Children of immigrants born in Ireland are Irish.
Yellow_Fern wrote: » Nationality vs ethnicity. Many of the kids growing up to immigrant parents are ethnically Irish in my book but plenty others aren't. It is a very subjective thing though.
TomTomTim wrote: » I don't agree, simply as a matter of preciseness. I'd struggle to call any 2nd generation immigrants ethnically Irish, because they simply aren't. They can be Irish citizens, and act as Irish as any of us, but they still aren't ethnically Irish. The word ethnicity has a meaning, and I'm not willing to betray that. The bastardization of language has been one of the main tools of "progressives", so I think we'd be wise not to go down that road, or at least not contribute to it. The world as it stands is blurry enough, without making it even worse.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » What defenition of ethnicity are you using. Because I briefly looked up the word and if they act as Irish as any of us then they meet the definition I saw: 'the fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition'. By claiming they are not you, imo, go down the dangerous road like they have in America were people consider themselves 'African' American, 'Irish' American etc. Instead of simply American. I do not want such a scenario in Ireland. It is bad for social cohesian, and results when immigration is too high, which is why I'm in favor of limiting it, particular immigration from outside the EU.
Sand wrote: » Ethnic descent? I.E. to be of an ethnic group you need to be descended from that group. Ethnicity isnt a costume you can put on and take off. The US is a multi-ethnic territory/economic zone. Wishful thinking to pretend it isnt wont magic away the ethnic strife that is tearing that place apart. Hasn't worked in USA. Hasn't worked in France. Hasn't worked in the UK. Hasn't worked in Sweden. We shouldn't want that in Ireland, I agree, but how we avoid it is preventing mass migration into Ireland which creates the ethnic enclaves.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » Give me a definition. This is from wikipedia: 'An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area'. A person born in Ireland and fully immersed in our culture can absolutely meet that definition, regardless of where their parents are from.
Sand wrote: » This isnt America.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » ... By claiming they are not you, imo, go down the dangerous road like they have in America were people consider themselves 'African' American, 'Irish' American etc. Instead of simply American.
I do not want such a scenario in Ireland. It is bad for social cohesian, and results when immigration is too high, which is why I'm in favor of limiting it, particular immigration from outside the EU.
Eric Cartman wrote: » Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes. And before anyone starts, yes this applies to the children of our EU immigrant friends too and not just those with darker skin.
Sand wrote: » I've bolded and underlined the important part of the above definition. Ethnic descent is what distinguishes ethnic Irish from non-Irish groups (and in turn those ethnic groups from the Irish). You can imitate a people, but it doesn't make you one of those people.
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a named social category of people who identify with each other on the basis of shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups such as a common set of traditions, ancestry, language, history, society, culture, nation, religion, or social treatment within their residing area.
Sand wrote: » Even apart from that, the common history of ethnic Irish people (anywhere from 800-10,000 years depending on your definition) is different from non-ethnic Irish groups which only settled in the last 10-20 years.
Sand wrote: » A child raised by ethnic Irish parents is going to have a different background than a child raised by non Irish parents - they will likely have a second (or third) language linked to their ethnic heritage and which may have been the language spoken in the home. Certainly, non-Irish parents will often push these children to not forget their roots in the old country. This is normal, and not to be prevented but the ethnic Irish have their roots in this country. Often these non-Irish groups will not be Christian, but even to the extent they are the Irish are increasingly post-Christian due in no small part to the Irish experience of an overwhelming Catholic Church.
Sand wrote: » My mother can relate stories to me of how friends and relatives of hers were treated under that regime. It's an Irish history passed down through the generations of Irish families. A child raised by non-Irish parents doesn't have that, though they may hear different stories about the old country from their non-Irish parents.
Sand wrote: » Even despite all that, Irish law and the constitution doesn't agree with you. The ethnic descent of your parents is the key factor in determining if you are Irish or not under Irish law. Where you are born is irrelevant. This isn't America.
eleventh wrote: » I think the opposite is more likely. Africans in Ireland, for example, if surrounded by other Africans calling themselves Irish, will more likely do the same, than if they're a small minority.
CtevenSrowder wrote: » You have reduced ethnicity solely down to whose ones parents are. There is more to the definition then this (as per wiki) A person born and raised in Ireland to foreign parents can absolutely meet the above definition, and in fact can meet every part of it bar ancestry.
I am talking of people born in and raised in the country, not someone who has obtained citizenship through naturalisation.
Again, you equate everything to whose ones parents are, and ignore every other aspect that goes into an ethnicity. A person born and raised in Ireland will very likely have all their roots in this country.
With respect this is a bizarre argument. In 40 years when these people are all dead the stories will be confined to history books. A person born in this country will go through the Irish education system and learn Irish history more or less like everyone else does. Nobody ever regaled stories to me about the Irish famine, I learned about it in school.
The Law dictates nationality, not ethnicity. I am actually in favour of the current Law with regards to nationality. And ethnic descent is not necessarily a key factor, as your parents could be British and you would be entitled to an Irish Passport, or resident in Ireland for the preceding 4 years (but not as a student or Asylum seeker). One does not simply have to be born to Irish parents to obtain citizenship.
Eric Cartman wrote: » Id agree. I would not consider the child of two ethnically non irish people irish in any way, even if born here. If somebody had one ethnically irish parent that would be the lowest bar for being irish. However if that half irish kid had kids with somebody non irish that child would not be irish in my eyes.
Sand wrote: » Which is why ancestry is the most important factor for ethnicity, as (going by your definition) it is the factor that distinguishes the ethnic Irish from other groups. And as I outlined already, the other characteristics of Irish ethnicity are passed down to Irish children by Irish parents. Ancestry is key.
Sand wrote: » So am I. We're talking about people who might read about Irish history, but it is not *their* history in the same way I might read about Polish history but it is not my history.
Sand wrote: » This assertion is just wishful thinking on your part.
Sand wrote: » I routinely stress that there is a difference between ethnic Irish and holding an Irish passport. You can apply for an Irish passport, but you cant apply to be ethnic Irish. The key point is that you think its unreasonable to define ethnic groups by descent, whereas the Irish nation-state routinely defines citizenship by descent regardless of your place of birth and regardless of cultural factors. Irish by descent, not by language tests, or multiple choice quizzes that anyone can pass or by drinking Guinness. Again, Ireland is not America.
rgossip30 wrote: » . I wonder how long do they need to work to then claim welfare .
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