gormdubhgorm wrote: » True, but the more education a person has it is likely they would be more tolerant. Naturally there are exceptions. But it is just fact of life.
Hamachi wrote: » Or the more educated a person is, the more likely they are to provide an answer that is palatable to their interlocutor. One thing education does imbue is a filter. The ability to apply a socially acceptable veneer to what lies beneath. Most ‘educated’ people aren’t going to reveal their true opinions on a controversial subject like immigration to some randomer. They reserve those opinions for family, close friends, and the ballot box.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It does nothing to alter my view. Plus then an articulate "Enoch Powell" type lights the spark to those disenchanted masses = chaos. Where the working class fears are manipulated by a charismatic well spoken leader, from the upper middle class. Maybe a future Irish figurehead will be from Dún Laoghaire who knows?
Trouser Snake wrote: » If that's your conception of education, consider yourself ignorant. What an entitled view you have. How so many posters have entertained you down this thread is bewildering. Fact of life? Brilliant.
Justin Credible Darts wrote: » I wrote on here a few days ago about a woman I knew who once complained about foreigners coming here and taking all the jobs. The same woman had 2 lazy offspring on the dole.
stefanovich wrote: » It’s usually well to do upper middle class families that are pro multiculturalism. It’s all theoretical for them. They do not need to compete for accommodation and jobs with the new arrivals. They also get to look down on the “stupid racist” working class.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » No I despise the hypocrisy. As many in the working class are against the foreigners and so on. Yet barring a few notable exceptions they let thier own culture withier away.
Worse because you should know better.
You didn't answer my question and decided to pose a question of your own instead. It seems you just like to pontificate but not respond mostly
A condescending flippant response. Nothing new there.
I suppose you would be unwilling to articulate how you can view Irish as a 'foreign' language yet be apposed to multiculturalism? Because by it's very nature you have let yourself see your own Irish culture as 'foreign'. Which is precisely my point about it such a stance does not make sense. If you view an important tenet of Irish culture as 'foreign' why be so anti multiculturalism?
Makes zero sense to me.
Deleted User wrote: » So... I think it's dangerous to push this class angle about those who support multiculturalism, because it will encourage division based on very vague parameters. Just as importing multiculturalism (which has failed elsewhere) is dangerous, so too, is encouraging this "identity politics" that creates divisions, and weakens the overall society.
Sand wrote: » I think its fair enough to say that all Irish peoples don't want multiculturalism regardless of class, but there is still differences in their reaction to it. The wealthier flee it in their droves, the poorer cant afford to.
The wealthier, better educated people understand the elite driven narrative that "diversity is strength" so are better at hiding it, giving the right answers to surveys and so on. They don't support it, but they know they need to be seen to appear to.
Wibbs wrote: » Yet again answer me this; please point me to a single example of a multicultural European(or anywhere really) nation where those of darker skin aren't more likely clustered in the welfare class. Just one will do.
irishblessing wrote: » And why do you think those of darker skin are more likely clustered in the welfare class in European societies.
Wibbs wrote: » Racism, a culture of low expectations in both the migrant and native populations, poverty traps, religion, cultural differences in attitudes to education and/or the raising of kids, the inability even many generations in to "pass" for local*, which can in turn feed into the differences even racism going the other way. There are a lot of reasons, some complex, some simple, but clustered they tend to be. *you can see this in the US after slavery was abolished(in theory...)when African Americans took umbrage at Irish Americans, newly minted and there for longer because they were competing for the same low end jobs, but the Irish could pass for the White Anglo Saxon far more easily than them, the Chinese, or Italians, Greeks etc.
irishblessing wrote: » Racism and bias would be very difficult to overcome. Many (most) are probably living with untreated trauma, as well. A lack of generational wealth. Are your examples in any particular order of importance, out of curiosity? There is no such thing as reverse racism from a black person in a white dominant society. Racism is about who holds the positions of power and control. I think you mean prejudice or bias or perhaps discrimination.
Deleted User wrote: » Well, there you go with bias, and spouting the African American perception of what racism entails. Of course, there can be reverse racism, even where a Black person doesn't hold a position of power, because a Black person can feel irrational fear/hatred/disgust of other racial groups, including white people. The power difference is an excuse to justify the racism that is commonplace within African American societies... We saw the same with feminists claiming that women couldn't be sexist towards men... for similar reasons. And yet, they could, and have been sexist, because reverse sexism, is sexism. As is reverse racism... it's still racism. As for generational wealth, it's variable. They're coming from poorer economies, and as such, their wealth isn't comparable with ours, since they're entering a richer society. That's their choice, and nothing for us to feel guilt over, nor should we feel the need to accommodate them over it. If they moved to a nation with a comparable society to theirs, then, perhaps they would have a degree of generational wealth, but let's be fair here. That's going to be entirely individualistic and dependent on their own circumstances. I know a Ethiopian family here as Asylum seekers, who own two successful businesses which are still operating in their own country. The range of assets a migrant or refugee might bring with them is broad.. from nothing to quite a lot. And untreated trauma.. Many more are just economic migrants moving away. If they were solely war refugees, they would have stopped at the first friendly border, that was willing to take them in... that they would come as far as Ireland, suggests strongly that they're seeking prosperous nations to start in. Sure, some will have untreated trauma, but as with genuine Asylum claims, they're likely to be a minority.As with most people, if you go looking to find trauma, you'll find trauma from some experiences in their lives.
irishblessing wrote: » Do explain what that bolded part actually means. Don't pull in feminism and try to muddy the waters. It has no relevance here.
It's not the "African American perception," its the informed one. You're wrong. This may help you understand what I'm getting at.https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/09/can-white-people-experience-racism-12340542/
As for generational wealth and the lack thereof, it was simply listed as a reason why a certain group of people can be more likely clustered in poverty. No one told you you should feel guilty about it, you sound triggered. There is such a thing though as societies becoming more equitable for all it's citizens and immigrants and that is generally a good thing.
For someone whom I am guessing has never been an economic nor war refugee it's strange you claim to know what they would or wouldn't do and the reasons why.
Your lack of empathy and judgement of others is showing. If I were in there shoes, I'd imagine I would go where I have the best possibility of me and my family surviving and thriving. Where maybe I know someone or a few people who can help. You wouldn't?
irishblessing wrote: » You're trying to reduce the real experience of people here to a narrative, Wibbs, and that just isn't going to fly. But it is pretty fly (and typical) for a male white guy, lol.
irishblessing wrote: » You're trying to reduce the real experience of people here to a narrative, Wibbs, and that just isn't going to fly. But it is pretty fly (and typical) for a male white guy, lol. You and klaz make up for a lack of truth by being overly and unnecessarily verbose. At the end of the day you want an all white Ireland because anything else scares you. Identity politics = yourself. It's also handy as a way to frame, dismiss and silence questions, especially clear in the tactic to be overly verbose with word salad so that what, it's overwhelming for the person on the other side of the debate and will maybe just give up? It's a pattern here going back 248 pages. So you admit to being combative and dismissive yourself... yeah, it's obvious. Some people really are triggered and use that word as a mirror to others. So you speak for yourself in admitting to being combative and dismissive. Its your m.o. Out of interest, could you list the things that could have been handled better that would change your mind on multiculturalism? And who's failings is it down to, government, the Irish or refugees/immigrants? This isn't America. You sound ridiculous talking about You talk about lists of positives. I think this is a very detached and may I say inhumane way of looking at human crisis and poverty and lack of resources. We all have more in common than not; we all want to live our one best, safest, happiest life. We're more alike than we are different. People have always moved around to follow resources and long before there were political borders. Now, often times powerful countries interfere in and exploit other countries to the detriment of their people and then shun their human need to try and find a better life.
irishblessing wrote: » Do explain what that bolded part actually means.
Don't pull in feminism and try to muddy the waters. It has no relevance here.
It's not the "African American perception," its the informed one.
Your lack of empathy and judgement of others is showing.
If I were in there shoes, I'd imagine I would go where I have the best possibility of me and my family surviving and thriving. Where maybe I know someone or a few people who can help. You wouldn't?
Mules wrote: » This is an Irish forum, you sound ridiculous talking about white males, like someone in an American university sociology department.
Deleted User wrote: » I actually did. You're showing a bias from exempting black people from displaying/performing racism against white people... and then seeking to justify it. Most racists have reasons/justifications for why their racism should be allowed. (nope, I'm not calling you a racist) Feminism is the most successful rights movement in history. Most other movements (black rights, minority rights, etc) are based on the same principles since we tend to mimic what is successful. The victim mentality is very much part of feminism, as it is with the Black rights movement, because victims cannot be held accountable for what they do, due to others having power over them. A vague enemy that can be wheeled out whenever their opinions face objections. The American version of racism, through it's experience with the African American situation is heavily influenced by the victim narrative. You've just shown that there are different interpretations... whereas I tend to apply the same aspects of racism to everyone regardless of race, gender etc. Racism doesn't need exclusion clauses. It needs to be applied equally. And giving me an opinion piece, does nothing to prove that I am wrong. If a Black person behaves in a racist way, then they're being racist. If one calls a white person insulting terms based on their race, then they're being racist. That's a simple example.. but it hold true. You seek to promote a viewpoint that is not based on equality for all races. I'm not in the least bit triggered, and your use of the term, and following sentence is a deflection. I have lived in Asia, and spent extensive time in Africa, working as a volunteer (both the UN and NGO), just as I've worked as a volunteer here in Ireland (local council) helping Travellers and... migrants to learn English and also teaching professional courses for the skilling up of migrants. So... I suspect I have as much awareness as you do, if not more. The interesting thing is your need to seek to discredit me and my opinions. Perhaps you should think about that....:rolleyes: Of course it is... because we're discussing macro topics, which should be done in an unemotional manner. When posters become emotional over topics, they lose perspective, and fail to address the real issues. In any case, this is simply more of the triggered nonsense. Deflecting and seeking to discredit. But then, I've noticed a trend recently of posters who, when facing opposition, will stop debating, and instead, move to targeting the other poster themselves. Perhaps stick to the topic at hand, and leave the moral superiority at the door? I went to Russia because English was useful, as was my management experience. Working as a contractor, I was able to earn salaries much higher than the average Russian, so I wasn't reliant on the local economy or living standards. Then I moved to Australia, lived there for almost two years, working as a manager. After that, I moved to Japan, where I didn't want to be a manager due to the work culture, and became a teacher instead (private school, good money). Worked long enough to acquire experience, and then, due to the overall costs with living there (comparable to Ireland in many ways), I moved to S.Korea, where I worked as a Marketing executive, for 6? months. Then I moved to China, where having English was a major plus, and worked as a management consultant, a teacher, and finally becoming a lecturer at university. That's not everything I've done since the "Banking Crash" but it does show most of the main points. I moved to where I could obtain work, which would generate the income needed for my living costs, but also pay my mortgage in Ireland, while also being able to pass money to my parents. I researched, and choose nations where my skills were in demand. Where being a native English speaker, opened doors to other types of employment or carried a side benefit. I knew nobody in Russia when I went there. Nor any of the other countries where I moved to... (apart from light networking due to job searches). So... I do have experience. But then, I also migrated legally, getting visas, and not expecting any handouts from other countries.
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