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1926 census early release (sort of)

  • 18-10-2020 9:30pm
    #1
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    The IGRS Facebook page has just shared 272 images of the 1926 Ireland census for Fermoy originally posted on the Fermoy Facebook page apparently courtesy of one courtesy Maureen Reagan.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    I'm wondering is this the official census or just something that was done locally.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    Yes, I just asked where they got it.

    It's very suspicious! Some kind of enumerator's notebook that was never turned in?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    I didn't look too closely at it when first I copped it.

    It's not quite what I had in mind when I read '1926 Census' but still good to see some of my lot make an appearance.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    Lest their be any confusion this is not the official 1926 census of Ireland but merely a list of people living in Fermoy at the time, possibly copied from the official record.

    The official census returns look something like this example posted at the Irish Genealogy Toolkit.

    529781.png

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    Yes, that's why I wondered about an actual enumerator book, which must have been filled out by hand initially.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    I suspect this isn't even a partial census result; it's a completely hypothetical example showing how a census return ought to be filled out, probably created before the census, and included in the instructions to enumerators. If I'm right, all of the information in it is probably fictional.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    Indeed Peregrinus - it's just a mock-up as the entries on the official record would have been handwritten.

    But it serves to demonstrate the likely difference between the official document and what was shared on Facebook last night.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭ Earnest


    I remember a scandal a few censuses ago when it was found that the Guards were copying the census information that they had gathered as enumerators into their own records. Maybe it's a Garda file.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    No, people on the Facebook post were saying they recognised grandparents, etc so they're real in some sense.

    But the return would have way more than just the names, ages and relationships.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    No, people on the Facebook post were saying they recognised grandparents, etc so they're real in some sense.

    But the return would have way more than just the names, ages and relationships.

    Is this comment replying to me?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    More to Peregrinus.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    More to Peregrinus.

    Ah, I think he was referring to the example I posted from Irish Genealogy Toolkit - which is why I thought your comment was for me.:)

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 422 ✭✭ Vetch


    That table is included here - haven't read the detail but assume it's a fictitious example for instructional purposes:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1926/sro/76/made/en/print


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    I assumed as much myself when I posted the image but maybe I should have worded my post better to make that clear.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    I didn't realise that marriage and orphanhood were an either or situation. :)

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    Yeah, that's an odd heading.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    It's a confusing heading, but I think the deal is that if a person was of age to be married you were supposed to note their marital status. If they were under age you were supposed to indicate whether their parents were living or not. It's an odd combination, but I think the idea was to elicit information about dependency relationships. Did you have anyone likely to be (financially) dependent on you? Were you likely to be financially dependent on anyone? Who?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    Useful for genealogy, whenever we actually get the release.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    This item has made the news on RTE.
    The Central Statistics Office has warned that the publication of census returns is strictly prohibited following a social media post containing data from the 1926 Census.

    The CSO said a copy of the 1926 Census has been posted on social media and has asked that it be taken down immediately and not shared further.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    CSO twitter is getting nothing but flack for not releasing it earlier!


    https://twitter.com/CSOIreland/status/1318512916979658754

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,710 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Hermy


    Does the law currently allow them to release it early?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    Yes and no.

    Lots of background here:
    http://www.cigo.ie/1926-census/

    Previous governments have committed to early release but not done it.
    CSO doesn't want to do it.
    They need to get used to working on old material. This is the last gap in the records.
    1936/1946 then every 5 years.

    Why not turn it over to one of the commercials and make some money from it?!
    There is an insistence on keeping the material free to access.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 788 ✭✭✭ Hibernicis


    Hermy wrote: »
    Does the law currently allow them to release it early?

    No. But that's not the full story.

    The 1901 and 1911 censuses were released in 1961 by Ministerial Order because the previous census censuses were destroyed when the Public Records Office (in the Four Courts) burned in 1922. These were taken under legislation which made no provision for the confidentiality of the information recorded in them.

    The Statistics Act, 1993 allows the returns for Censuses of 1926 and later years to be made available as public records 100 years after the relevant census. This means that the 1926 census records will be open to the public by the National Archives in 2026.

    Speaking in the Dail in 2011, then Minister for Heritage Jimmy Deenihan indicated that it was his intention to have the [1926] census returns digitised and made available on-line as a 1916 centenary project. In a written response to a PQ in 2012 Deenihan said:
    “The Programme for Government contains a commitment to enable the publication of the 1926 Census. The project requires two principal components to be addressed. The first is the legal necessity to change the relevant legislation to permit publication of the Census before the expiry of the statutory 100 year period, while respecting certain rights. The second is the technical process whereby the material can be converted from the paper records to a searchable electronic database in a cost-effective fashion. Legal advice has been obtained in relation to the legislative changes and consultation with bodies involved is in progress. Possible technical approaches are also currently being considered, as are their resource implications.”

    And to cut a long story short, that is where it lies. A bill enabling early release was published in 2017 but it was not passed by the Oireachtas. There is a petition here, but I think people now accept that nothing will happen until January 2027.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    The trouble is that the CSO isn't doing any work to make it available (actually in 2026 - the law doesn't state the 100 period has to be over completely). So my concern would be that we'll end up with it technically being public domain but without any cataloguing or digitising done. And look how long it took them to get the other 2 transcribed when they were already on microfilm. And the cost of it. Google Sean Murphy's report into it (3 parts).

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,516 CMod ✭✭✭✭ spurious


    Couldn't they redact it like they did with the 1939 Register in the UK?

    Are there that many 94+ yr olds?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    I saw a report last week that said we had more than 500 centenarians in Ireland. Census figures for 90somethings must be well out of date from the 2016 returns at this stage, but presumably we have several thousand.

    They absolutely could retract like the 1939 Register.

    What I'm trying to get across is that the CSO *doesn't want to do this*.
    They see their work on things like the consumer price index as more important than the historical content.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,323 ✭✭✭✭ Peregrinus


    Yeah. To be honest, in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter whether the 1926 census data is released in 2021 or in 2026. But most of the CSO's work is time-critical. So they are not going to choose to divert resources to accelerating publication of the historic data; it's just not a priority for them. The only way this will happen is unless they are given additional resources specifically for that purpose.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    I agree, which is actually what I'm arguing for. As I said above, they need to have a division for this work from now on, or outsource it for the 3 decennial censuses and have something set up by the time we go to 5 yearly releases.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭ crossman47


    I think there are two issues here. Much as I would like to see the 1926 data, Cso have a real concern. At every Census, there are a minority of people who object to filling it in on confidentiality grounds. They are assured it will be kept confidential for one hundred years. If that is changed for 1926 then those people can say "You say that but the law can change the 100 to 90 or 70 or..". It would be grist to the mill of those people.

    Apart from that, I think the records are now with the National Archives so they, not CSO, will be responsible for making them available.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,297 Mod ✭✭✭✭ pinkypinky


    Afaik, they have not been handed to the NAI yet.

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