Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

eastwest wrote: »

The figure for all of Mayo is somewhere north of 300 freight trains annually, so I don't know where he got 1,000.
Maybe he added in the figures for Athenry-Galway? I wouldn't be the first time somebody used them to pad out a weak argument:):)

I reckon if he wasn't telling the truth and telling porkie pies to enhance a capital project for his own constituency he must have been misleading the minister and the Dail. That's pretty serious isn't it? Could he be bought to task on that? Afterall the Mayo press seem to have their heads up his arsene wenger believing everything he says and using what he says to publish very misleading stories. Surely when politicians refer to empirical measurable facts in the Dail they can be held accountable can't they? Is there anyway this can be done? Suppose someone got the actual figures from Irish Rail and Dara "i don't even play golf" Calleary was found to have misled the house would that be serious?

blackwhite

andrewfaulk wrote: »

Apologies, but I don't have the willpower to read every post in this thread.

Your comments did not read to me as if they were talking solely in the context of landbridge, particularly this one..

"There could be all the tonnage in the world from industry in the West - it would still be more efficient to bring it by rail to ports on the East and South coasts and ship it from there to Europe than it would be to ship from Limerick"

And now it’s an out of context snip from a post talking about using a rail-link from Charlestown and above to the ports. You dont get the concept of different posts addressing different points either - do you?

Foynes is suitable for non-perishables, and only for those produced in bulk, within a relatively small radius of the port. Once you get outside of that quite small radius, the additional sailing time and cost means that Cork, Waterford, Rosslare and even Dublin are better options in terms of cost and time.

Isambard wrote: »

added in passenger trains perhaps?

In a debate that was about freight and nothing else?
He clearly stated that 1,000 freight trains leave Mayo every year, so either he was grossly exaggerating the numbers in order to persuade the Minister that there was a case for a second freight railway for Mayo, or he was blindly quoting grossly exaggerated figures fed to him by his handlers in that particular lobby group.
Either way, he got it horribly wrong, but I have no doubt that by now the Department officials will have put the Minister right on the reality.
Interestingly, the west on track lobbying is now all about freight, they appear to have accepted the blindingly obvious with regards to the most recent rail report, which Minister Ryan also alluded to in the Dail when he said that any argument for passengers north of Tuam will be difficult to win. However if WOT wants for some reason best known to themselves to lobby for a second freight railway to carry a small share of the 300+ trains leaving Mayo every year, they should start by getting their facts right. Wildly optimistic claims might have got them phase one of the WRC, but that kind of blather is too easily called out and won't keep them at the table.
Their local tame TD won't be too happy if they have fed him a load of horse manure and encouraged him to put it on the Dail record, and the Minister, once appraised of the facts, will certainly have a lot less trust in WOT than heretofore.

Pete_Cavan

I'd say someone told Calleary there are over 1,000 freight trains in and out of Mayo each year and by the time he stood up in the Dail, he had it in his head to was 1,000 trains out and that's what he said. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that his bias towards the project lead to him inadvertently getting his facts wrong, rather than intentionally misleading parliament.

I think we are all in agreement though that, even if the number of freight trains leaving Mayo pa was double what it actually is, reinstating the WRC has little benefits. I think it is fair to say that spending the €150m upgrading the existing network would offer more benefits to freight and passenger services to/from the west.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I'd say someone told Calleary there are over 1,000 freight trains in and out of Mayo each year and by the time he stood up in the Dail, he had it in his head to was 1,000 trains out and that's what he said. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt that his bias towards the project lead to him inadvertently getting his facts wrong, rather than intentionally misleading parliament.
.

If that is the case all he needs to do is make a statement in the Dail that he inadvertently misled the House, apologizes, and corrects the matter for the Minister and the members. He knows how to say sorry and put the record straight, but as it stands he has mislead the Dail. He needs to make that statement though.

westtip wrote: »

If that is the case all he needs to do is make a statement in the Dail that he inadvertently misled the House, apologizes, and corrects the matter for the Minister and the members. He knows how to say sorry and put the record straight, but as it stands he has mislead the Dail. He needs to make that statement though.

Better still, you could stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

donvito99

IE 222 wrote: »

Better still, you could stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

An apt turn of phrase for this particular project.

donvito99 wrote: »

An apt turn of phrase for this particular project.

Maybe so but trying to conjure up a Freight Gate scandal and implying a major capital project will be approved on the grounds of 1 TD's calculated number of freight trains instead of a commissioned study is rather pathetic.

IE 222 wrote: »

Better still, you could stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

He didn't tell the truth in the Dail, it is not a mountain out of a molehill, these things have a habit of gathering pace, if you look at the western media in particular the Mayo media on this; His one comment has led to a riot of misleading information for public consumption. Rose Conway Walsh, Eamon O'Cuiv and Dara Calleary all supported this nonsense freight argument that day in the Dail; Statements have a habit of becoming self perpetuating fact. The whole premise of the argument made by West on Track and the supporting TDs in the chamber that day, is based on a myth that a thousand trains a year already leave Mayo per annum, the actual figure is nearer to one third of that. All Dara Calleary has to do is state clearly in our Parliamentary Chamber, where he is supposed to tell the truth in regard to factual matters; And this is a matter of fact, a statement along these lines:

I just wish to correct the record, on September 24th I stated over a thousand freight trains a year leave Mayo for Dublin and Waterford, this statement was based on misleading information I had been given by West on Track, having been given the correct figures sourced from Irish Rail, I can confirm that on the day I made that statement, in the previous 12 months preceding the day of my statement the correct figure was 378 outbound trains, not 1000 as I stated I wish to apologise to the house for any misunderstanding that came from my comments.

....I am sure these figures are easily obtainable from Irish Rail if someone hasn't got them already.

That is all he has to do. No mountain, No molehill no fuss, and a level playing field.

westtip wrote: »

He didn't tell the truth in the Dail, it is not a mountain out of a molehill, these things have a habit of gathering pace, if you look at the western media in particular the Mayo media on this; His one comment has led to a riot of misleading information published for public consumption. Rose Conway Walsh, Eamon O'Cuiv and Dara Calleary all supported this nonsense freight argument that day in the Dail; Statements have a habit of becoming self perpetuating fact. The whole premise of the argument made by West on Track and the supporting TDs in the chamber that day, is based on a myth that a thousand trains a year already leave Mayo per annum, the actual figure is nearer to one third of that. All Dara Calleary has to do is state clearly in our Parliamentary Chamber, where he is supposed to tell the truth in regard to factual matters; And this is a matter of fact, a statement along these lines:

I just wish to correct the record, on September 24th I stated over a thousand freight trains a year leave Mayo for Dublin and Waterford, this statement was based on misleading information I had been given by West on Track, having been given the correct figures sourced from Irish Rail, I can confirm that on the day I made that statement, in the previous 12 months preceding the day of my statement the correct figure was 378 outbound trains (or whatever the actual figure is)....I am sure these figures are easily obtainable from Irish Rail if someone hasn't got them already.

That is all he has to do. No mountain, No molehill no fuss, and a level playing field.

He could just add the word "arrive" to it as well and be done with it. Again you'd be very naive if you really think his comments are going to add any weight to a project of this scale been selected or not.

Any campaign focusing on such trivial matters is destined to fail. You probably inflicted more damage upon the campaign than he did by dishing out that level of tripe.

Carawaystick

westtip wrote: »

He didn't tell the truth in the Dail
....

I just wish to correct the record,
...

That is all he has to do. No mountain, No molehill no fuss, and a level playing field.

If I was getting het up about correcting the record, I'd get my own ducks in a row

The Deputy doesn't work in the Dail, they work in the Dáil

IE 222 wrote: »

He could just add the word "arrive" to it as well and be done with it.

He'd still be wrong, with around 250 imaginary trains still on the record.

seekers

Could we get back to wondering how this line could open again. Remember the motorway to Galway from gort and the Waterford Dublin motorway don't pay for themselves either

seekers wrote: »

Could we get back to wondering how this line could open again. Remember the motorway to Galway from gort and the Waterford Dublin motorway don't pay for themselves either

They do, if they're used.
Which sums up the problem with phase 1 of the wrc, and explains why it's not going any further. Any investment made with our money should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
So on that note, maybe we could get back to wondering whether Calleary will correct the false information he gave to the Dail?

seekers

eastwest wrote: »

They do, if they're used.
Which sums up the problem with phase 1 of the wrc, and explains why it's not going any further. Any investment made with our money should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
So on that note, maybe we could get back to wondering whether Calleary will correct the false information he gave to the Dail?

And what about the limerick tunnel Waterford motorway. M18? All built to front load connectivity

seekers wrote: »

And what about the limerick tunnel Waterford motorway. M18? All built to front load connectivity

Waterford was another political decision, and not a smart one. The Dublin-Cork motorway should have routed via Kilkenny with a dual carriageway link to Waterford. It might be performing better than the WRC, but it was still an overkill for that route.
But thankfully these kinds of decisions,made in an era when we though we had unlimited money, are a thing of the past

end of the road

eastwest wrote: »

They do, if they're used.
Which sums up the problem with phase 1 of the wrc, and explains why it's not going any further. Any investment made with our money should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
So on that note, maybe we could get back to wondering whether Calleary will correct the false information he gave to the Dail?

roads simply being used doesn't mean they necessarily automatically pay for themselves by virtue of the fact they are simply being used, it will depend on a number of factors i would imagine such as the pricing structure for usage among others, which would then determine if simple usage is enough to pay for itself.
phase 1 of the wrc is being used, the fact it doesn't pay for itself is just realism in terms of most passenger railways.
nobody in government has as yet stated that further phases definitely will or won't happen, forget about the last government's view as decisions change, so therefore nobody can say with any certainty what will or won't happen because we just do not know.
all investments are based on facts or political wishes, and this will be no different i would expect.
what Calleary stated is a complete non-issue, if he is incorrect then the minister likely already knows this anyway and if he has sense will have saw it for what it is, a tiny mistake which is not worth making an issue over.

IE 222 wrote: »

Any campaign focusing on such trivial matters is destined to fail. You probably inflicted more damage upon the campaign than he did by dishing out that level of tripe.

Lying in the Dail is not a trivial matter, nor should it be, asking him to correct his statement is simple; that is all. It is not pivotal to any campaign and as for damage to the greenway campaign, you are entitled to your views, however citizens are equally entitled to truthful statements, it just depends what kind of democracy you want to live in, its simple really, he was misled, probably by the lobbyists he supports, with misinformation which he may have thought was right, it was wrong, he needs to correct the Dail record. End of really.

eastwest wrote: »

He'd still be wrong, with around 250 imaginary trains still on the record.

Well at least they'd be proven numbers unlike the imaginary up take the greenway will deliver.

westtip wrote: »

Lying in the Dail is not a trivial matter, nor should it be, asking him to correct his statement is simple; that is all. It is not pivotal to any campaign and as for damage to the greenway campaign, you are entitled to your views, however citizens are equally entitled to truthful statements, it just depends what kind of democracy you want to live in, its simple really, he was misled, probably by the lobbyists he supports, with misinformation which he may have thought was right, it was wrong, he needs to correct the Dail record. End of really.

He didn't set out to lie. Its easily explained as to how he came to that figure and realistically it would be you left red faced rather than him.

IE 222 wrote: »

He didn't set out to lie. Its easily explained as to how he came to that figure and realistically it would be you left red faced rather than him.

No problem then so, lets just allow him to get away with telling porkies then so to suit the needs of him and his wee clan in the Dail to mislead the Minister. We can agree to disagree on this matter. he needs to retract his statement you think its trivial, ok then so, we disagree. end of, I would be more than happy to be red faced and expose his lies.

eastwest wrote: »

They do, if they're used.
Which sums up the problem with phase 1 of the wrc, and explains why it's not going any further. Any investment made with our money should be based on facts, not wishful thinking.
So on that note, maybe we could get back to wondering whether Calleary will correct the false information he gave to the Dail?

Obviously depends on your agenda but if it wasn't for the WRC Athenry - Galway numbers would only be a fraction of what they are.

IE 222 wrote: »

Obviously depends on your agenda but if it wasn't for the WRC Athenry - Galway numbers would only be a fraction of what they are.

If the money had been spent on double tracking, Athlone to Galway, the Athenry Galway numbers could be just as much. You don't need a train starting in Limerick to increase usage of the Dublin Galway line form Athenry into Galway, you need investment in the Dublin-galway line to allow for stopping commuter services - Athlone to Galway and express services. A benefit accrued from the WRC is indeed the increased numbers using the more frequent service from Athenry to Galway, on the extant Dublin Galway line but that more frequent service could have been delivered with double tracking the main line from Athlone, it would have been of far more benefit to the region and would have helped Irish Rail really compete with the xpress bus services belting up and down the M6 every half an hour.

end of the road

westtip wrote: »

If the money had been spent on double tracking, Athlone to Galway, the Athenry Galway numbers could be just as much. You don't need a train starting in Limerick to increase usage of the Dublin Galway line form Athenry into Galway, you need investment in the Dublin-galway line to allow for stopping commuter services - Athlone to Galway and express services. A benefit accrued from the WRC is indeed the increased numbers using the more frequent service from Athenry to Galway, on the extant Dublin Galway line but that more frequent service could have been delivered with double tracking the main line from Athlone, it would have been of far more benefit to the region and would have helped Irish Rail really compete with the xpress bus services belting up and down the M6 every half an hour.

i believe on the galway corridor that irish rail are in fact very competitive with the express buses which have to belt up and down to gain any sort of slight competitiveness, and that's dispite the trains sprinting rather then belting.

westtip wrote: »

If the money had been spent on double tracking, Athlone to Galway, the Athenry Galway numbers could be just as much. You don't need a train starting in Limerick to increase usage of the Dublin Galway line form Athenry into Galway, you need investment in the Dublin-galway line to allow for stopping commuter services - Athlone to Galway and express services. A benefit accrued from the WRC is indeed the increased numbers using the more frequent service from Athenry to Galway, on the extant Dublin Galway line but that more frequent service could have been delivered with double tracking the main line from Athlone, it would have been of far more benefit to the region and would have helped Irish Rail really compete with the xpress bus services belting up and down the M6 every half an hour.

No it wouldn't. The WRC allowed the Limerick stock to work services into Galway. It also allows them to run local services during turn around times. IE doesn't have the stock to be sending ICRs to do local services in Galway. If you don't need a train starting in Limerick how would one stating in Dublin offer better benefits. The stock is based in Limerick. In order to meet local Galway demand IE would need to be running services from Dublin at 5:30am.

Double tracking the line would of cost many more multiples than the WRC and offer very little benefit without doubling to Portarlington. Even when the line is eventually doubled Galway local services will remain tied in with WRC services one way or another. The WRC allows IE to maximize fleet utilisation and I'd imagine Phase 3 will do the same with Westport and Ballina.

westtip wrote: »

No problem then so, lets just allow him to get away with telling porkies then so to suit the needs of him and his wee clan in the Dail to mislead the Minister. We can agree to disagree on this matter. he needs to retract his statement you think its trivial, ok then so, we disagree. end of, I would be more than happy to be red faced and expose his lies.

Fair enough but I think it just shows the strength of your campaign if that's the carry on you've to resort to.

ezstreet5

westtip wrote: »

No problem then so, lets just allow him to get away with telling porkies then so to suit the needs of him and his wee clan in the Dail to mislead the Minister. We can agree to disagree on this matter. he needs to retract his statement you think its trivial, ok then so, we disagree. end of, I would be more than happy to be red faced and expose his lies.

It goes both ways. I've quoted the following Leo Varadkar Dáil statement from 14th Feb 2018 many times:

The commitment on the western rail corridor in the programme for Government is not to build or complete it but to carry out such an appraisal of such a benefit to cost ratio. The last time it was done it came out negatively at a cost of 100 against six - 100 being the cost and six the benefit. Most rail projects come out around 100 to 80. It did not come out of that well and had a negative net present value over 30 years.

We all know that the "last time" was the 2030 Rail Network Strategy Review (2011) prepared by AECOM/Goodbody. The actual scores reported were 61/100 for Phase 2 and 37/100 for Phase 3 and not 6/100.

IE 222 wrote: »

Fair enough but I think it just shows the strength of your campaign if that's the carry on you've to resort to.

La di da.

IE 222 wrote: »

The WRC allows IE to maximize fleet utilisation and I'd imagine Phase 3 will do the same with Westport and Ballina.

Anyway as the Minister for freight transport said on Sept 24th: "If we try to win this project on the basis of it being a commuting route from Tuam or Claremorris to Galway, an argument based on those numbers will be difficult to win”

.....and as the passenger service argument now appears to be lost and is probably dead and buried by the EY report there will be no passenger services on this route, so I don't follow your line of argument about phase 3 bringing greater fleet utilization. Hey ho.