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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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graememk

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Just an update. Electric Ireland have been to assess. They are way too expensive. I have a system with oil burner and 14 rads. Simple on/ off switch, no alternative means of control. There is a single coil cylinder in the hot press, no summer valve. We also have an insert stove that's connected to the system via back boiler setup.

The stove will have to be decommissioned. I can understand that, but the price we're being quoted for the system is ridiculous. I feel we're being had. I can buy 14 Evo Home TRVs and control unit for approx £1,000 on Amazon UK. I think I may be able to get someone separate to do the boiler decom.

What way is the system plumbed right now, the stove feeds the same line as the oil burner? So it feeds the coil and the rads at the same time?

The Way my fathers house is setup, is that the feed from the oil burner comes from it, into a T in the hot-press with the hot water cylinder, from there there is a motorised valve on radiator side of that T connected to a switch, when it is "off" it blocks the flow to the rads so the boiler can only pass through the coil in the cylinder. (there is also a tap on it to balance the flow going to the coil too).

ted1

theintern wrote: »

Random question as I can't seem to find anyone mentioning it.

It seems Energia have a condition for their Netatmo offer that says;

"If you move house you cannot move the Netatmo with you, you must leave it on the property as it forms part of the central heating system"

Why is this? If it's 'mine' then shouldn't I be able to do with it as I please if I move? Has anyone moved and brought an Energia Netatmo with them?

Because it’s a grant that is tied to the MPRN. If you move house you can avail of the offer again

deezell

Grant Stevens wrote: »

Just an update. Electric Ireland have been to assess.....

The stove will have to be decommissioned. I can understand that, but the price we're being quoted for the system is ridiculous......

Why do you 'have' to decomission the stove? Is it because a grant aided thermostat can't be seen hanging out with nasty solid fuel types, or is it because they can't be arsed to explain how to integrate a stove with another source, (or maybe they don't know how?)
High Price doesn't surprise me, they probably counted the rads and multiplied by 200. A builder friend called a plumber to add rads to an attic conversion he was working on, move tanks etc. Over the phone he said €20k. Didnt look at a plan, visit site, just plucked a figure out of his...

deezell

maxamillius wrote: »

I have basic heating setup, oil boiler, thermostat on wall, i turn CH on by flicking switch on boiler, CH pump is turned on/off using mechanical stat on wall. If i leave the stat down and the pump off, the water will eventually get warm using gravity.

My question is, can i use the Drayton wiser system? At the moment I don’t have any TRVs installed but i am going to get a plumber to sort this next month. If Drayton wiser is a runner, would anyone have a wiring diagram for it?

Cheers,

As you have a gravity HW system, you can heat it when the pump for CH is on or off. You can't heat the CH without the HW though. The Drayton two zone controller, and dozens of other simpler timer controllers, are designed for independent valve closure of the zones, and have two live timed outputs, one for each valve, HW and CH. The valves in turn have relays whose outputs are combined, and turn on the boiler and the pump together. Some of these timers have a mode switch, for Fullly Pumped, as above with the valves, and for Gravity. In the latter case the two outputs behave differently. One live terminal is used to fire the boiler for either HW or CH events, the other terminal is used to operate the pump only when a CH event occurs.
The Drayton Kit 2 does not have this facility, so can't be wired to operate as above, You can set HW timed events to coincide with CH events, and wire HW on to fire the boiler, CH on to operate the pump, but this is just a bodge.
The tado ext kit can have gravity mode enabled by Tado support, and is wired as above.
If the live feeds in to the HW and CH relays in the controller are isolated as Common, and the relay is two pole, with a CH on and CH off terminal, then it is possible to replicate gravity mode on such a controller, (the Nest for example). The Drayton has live hardwired to the CH and HW commons, so this Nest gravity wiring option is not available on the Wiser 2 zone.
TRVs offer a partial solution, as you can now combine HW and CH timed live outputs to fire the boiler and operate the pump, but if the firing is initiated by the HW relay only, the trvs will be shut so only HW will heat. This requires a full TRV implementation, else non TRV rads will heat for a HW event.
You should investigate the installation of zone valves to isolate the HW circuit and the CH circuit, giving you full independent zone control. I posted a diagram of Nest gravity wiring way back, I'll have a root for it if anyone is interested.

championc

graememk wrote: »

With the Tado system, does it have to be hooked up to the boiler or can it just be set to open and shut valves on a timer/ thermostat? (Solid fuel heating.. well there is oil as a backup but the tanks been empty since the spring lol.)

Is there a thermostat or thermometer in the TRV's too?

If you have a current wired wall stat, the Tado Smart Thermostat can just be a straight swap. It's an on / off switch with a brain.

Smart TRV's indeed have thermostats, which are far finer than mechanical ones (so can hold a room at the same temperature better). But you then have the added ability to tell them to operate at particular temperatures at particular times of the day, or be off during certain hours too. For instance, my living room is shut off until lunchtime. Nobody will ever use it in the mornings.

JimmyVik

Myself and my brother set up individual heating in each room in his house.
Its a zigbee / smart life series of electric panel heaters on smart plugs with thermostats in each room.
Rules are set depending on the time of day, room, temperature in the room etc.
Basically each room is only heated to the temp needed when needed.
Its always nice and toasty in his house.
He even has the heat come on when one of them is on the way home.

His next project is to put his alarm system on it.

It was fun helping him set it up too.
Originally we did it because his oil keeps getting stolen. So he didnt want to use oil anymore and gas wasnt an option for him.
But it turns out it is actually cheaper for him to heat the house this way than it was with oil (even if the oil didnt get stolen

).
Been up and running nearly 3 years now i think.
And one of the great things is that each heater has the electricity it used monitored by the app. So he can go back to individual days and see what was used, just to make sure he knows how much its costing.

Grant Stevens

deezell wrote: »

Why do you 'have' to decomission the stove? Is it because a grant aided thermostat can't be seen hanging out with nasty solid fuel types, or is it because they can't be arsed to explain how to integrate a stove with another source, (or maybe they don't know how?)
High Price doesn't surprise me, they probably counted the rads and multiplied by 200. A builder friend called a plumber to add rads to an attic conversion he was working on, move tanks etc. Over the phone he said €20k. Didnt look at a plan, visit site, just plucked a figure out of his...

From what I am told the back boiler system is an open vented system and therefore a closed TRV system would be dangerous if the stove was lit and the rad valves were closed. These systems do not speak to each other.

Grant Stevens

graememk wrote: »

What way is the system plumbed right now, the stove feeds the same line as the oil burner? So it feeds the coil and the rads at the same time?

The Way my fathers house is setup, is that the feed from the oil burner comes from it, into a T in the hot-press with the hot water cylinder, from there there is a motorised valve on radiator side of that T connected to a switch, when it is "off" it blocks the flow to the rads so the boiler can only pass through the coil in the cylinder. (there is also a tap on it to balance the flow going to the coil too).

I have no way of determining what way the system is designed, I do not possess enough knowledge to know this unfortunately.

emaherx

Grant Stevens wrote: »

From what I am told the back boiler system is an open vented system and therefore a closed TRV system would be dangerous if the stove was lit and the rad valves were closed. These systems do not speak to each other.

Were you told there were solutions to that problem? Would be a shame to do away with the back boiler.

deezell

Grant Stevens wrote: »

From what I am told the back boiler system is an open vented system and therefore a closed TRV system would be dangerous if the stove was lit and the rad valves were closed. These systems do not speak to each other.

The oil boiler is also open vent. System is not sealed even with all rads closed, it's still vented. If there's a gravity path to the HW cylinder, and/or a single open rad also on gravity, then the stove has a heatsink in the event of a power failure while lit. Even with mechanical rad valves fully open, stove heat can't reach them if theres no power to its pump. You can install a highish capacity radiator upstairs connected by a temperature controlled valve, which will sink heat if the stove circuit exceeds a temperature limit, say 75°. Plenty you can do in the event of power failure, and it's easy to kick in a pump to an open rad if all other TRVs are closed. Leave a main room open and controled by pump and wall stat rather than TRV. A bypass relay on zone pump operated by the stove stat means it will heat normally on oil controlled by it's room stat, but also when the stove stat kicks in. This relay can also mute the oil boiler for the duration of the stove supplied heat, TRVs will open and close and not know or care what the heat source is. Check the NRG Awareness site for blended system schematics. Get them to quote you if you want.
https://www.nrgawareness.com/

garo

Out of curiosiy Grant, what was the quote?

graememk

championc wrote: »

If you have a current wired wall stat, the Tado Smart Thermostat can just be a straight swap. It's an on / off switch with a brain.

Smart TRV's indeed have thermostats, which are far finer than mechanical ones (so can hold a room at the same temperature better). But you then have the added ability to tell them to operate at particular temperatures at particular times of the day, or be off during certain hours too. For instance, my living room is shut off until lunchtime. Nobody will ever use it in the mornings.

Yeah I've found that they can be a bit all or nothing, and then if some rooms can run a bit colder could be useful.

No, just a simple timer for the oil. But its not used much, looks like its getting cheaper so might fill the tank soon. and have it assist the Solid fuel.

Wouldn't be hard for me to move it out of the hotpress into the hall,

Can it regulate the TRVs without switching on the oil? (or i could just give it power and let it think its working the oil!)

evster

Can anyone recommend any smart TRV radiator valves? Recently had some of the standard TRV's installed but would replace them

championc

graememk wrote: »

Can it regulate the TRVs without switching on the oil? (or i could just give it power and let it think its working the oil!)

The Tado Smart TRV's can be installed standalone, so they can work like electronic versions of existing Manual Mechanical TRV's

In fact, if you want a Tado Smart TRV to trigger the heating to turn on, you need to contact Tado themselves, who can group up to 10 TRV's into a group which then need to interact with a Smart Thermostat.

So going with the Smart TRV's on their own is not a bad idea, and you can buy them in packs. Mind you, you'd need a Starter Kit with an Internet Bridge.

Grant Stevens

garo wrote: »

Out of curiosiy Grant, what was the quote?

It wouldn't be appropriate to say here what I was quoted.

garo

Could you PM me?

baldshin

Anyone able to give some tips on the wiring here?

Followed some guides online but can't get the Nest to fire the boiler. Coming from a Grasslin thermostat, this is the wiring currently in place, having a hard time deducing where 3 & 4 go in to the heat link.

deezell

baldshin wrote: »

Anyone able to give some tips on the wiring here?

Followed some guides online but can't get the Nest to fire the boiler. Coming from a Grasslin thermostat, this is the wiring currently in place, having a hard time deducing where 3 & 4 go in to the heat link.

3 is HW 4 is CH. The relays in the (Nest) heatlink are volt free, so you must put a live jumper to the heating and HW commons or COM terminals.

deezell

3 goes to 6, and 4 goes to 3, live jumpers to 2 and 5.

new-png.940506

lucast2007us

So I can use the tado smart TVR's in conjunction with the Climote?

baldshin

deezell wrote: »

3 goes to 6, and 4 goes to 3, live jumpers to 2 and 5.

Legend, thanks for that. Up and running now!

championc

lucast2007us wrote: »

So I can use the tado smart TVR's in conjunction with the Climote?

I don't see why not. But you'd have to check if you can buy a starter kit without a Smart Thermostat. Shreud shopping might nab a Starter Kit with the Smart Thermostat and 2 Smart TRV's and the Internet Bridge from about 130 - the cost of the bridge and TRV's.

Amazon Prime day is 13th Oct and Cyber Monday is only a few weeks away too.

deezell

championc wrote: »

....Shreud shopping might nab a Starter Kit with the Smart Thermostat and 2 Smart TRV's and the Internet Bridge from about 130 - the cost of the bridge and TRV's.....

In your dreams Champ! Single TRV and bridge is €95 at the lowest, UK delivery. Full kit as described, €350. However, you can install TRVs and a bridge without a main stat, if you just want smart TRV control of an unregulated heat source. This is common enough abroad in community heating, where the boiler is not your responsibility, just the amount of hot flow you draw from the piped hot supply. TRV plus bridge pack plus another pair of TRVs might come in under €200.

baldshin

baldshin wrote: »

Legend, thanks for that. Up and running now!

Feck, it was up and running. Now I realise it fires up for about 3 minutes and then goes off. No heat going to the rads. May need to get a professional in I think.

john_doe.

One thing that is bothering me, on the current setup (manual control) , when I turn on the hot water, the boiler fires and the water pump is hot to the touch. But...

The stove pump is also hot and the actual stove itself is hot to touch, regardless of the stove actually being off.

It's quite bizarre, hot water on and fan on stove is whizzing away.

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

One thing that is bothering me, on the current setup (manual control) , when I turn on the hot water, the boiler fires and the water pump is hot to the touch. But...

The stove pump is also hot and the actual stove itself is hot to touch, regardless of the stove actually being off.

It's quite bizarre, hot water on and fan on stove is whizzing away.

Your boiler HW is being pumped around the stove.

john_doe.

deezell wrote: »

Your boiler HW is being pumped around the stove.

Is that why the last plumber recommended a non return valve , I'm assuming this shouldn't be case

deezell

john_doe. wrote: »

Is that why the last plumber recommended a non return valve , I'm assuming this shouldn't be case

It's trickier with HW and a single coil cylinder, but two heat sources. Stove circuit must be open to the cylinder, if the boiler is just tapped across the stove loop and pumped, it's always going to travel through the coil and the stove jacket. A dual coil cylinder will prevent this. A neutraliser/blending manifold also, where boiler and stove HW sources are combined, and drawn off to the cylinder by gravity for the stove. Ideally, when the boiler only is operating and pumping to the manifold, there is no pressure differential to the stove jacket, and no convection or gravity to it either as the manifold is positioned above the top of the stove jacket. The boiler circuit to the manifold would have a one way valve.

deezell

baldshin wrote: »

Feck, it was up and running. Now I realise it fires up for about 3 minutes and then goes off. No heat going to the rads. May need to get a professional in I think.

Did you have a manual wall stat on your old system. It may interrupt the live from the heatlink to the zone valve/boiler. If the system worked with live on the CH terminal of the old timer, then it should work with the heatlink. 2 questions. What model grasslin? I assumed a CH and HW 2 zone as both 3 and 4 had cables.
Does your system have some valves, or is it gravity for HW, (boiler on only) and boiler plus circulation pump for CH? In this case your grasslin may have been operating in gravity mode, so a different wiring arrangement is required to replicate this on a Nest heatlink, which doesn't have a gravity mode switch, but can be wired differently to get the effect. I'll dig out the diagram I did years ago.

deezell

Here it is boiler fires for either HW or CH timed event, but pump only operates for CH.