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What are your views on Multiculturalism in Ireland? - Threadbanned User List in OP

RyanthePirate

I would like to see a Boards.ie Consensus.

Economists agree that immigration has a net positive on the economy and this immigration is surely a wonderful thing for the county.

Agree/Disagree?

Mod:

I have updated the OP of this thread with a list of threadbanned users, I would advise posters to check on this before posting in the thread again or a forum sanction will be imposed for breaching same.

If you want to discuss your threadban feel free to PM the banning mod (or myself if you can't remember who that is and I'll point you in the right direction).

Threadbanned Users:
DelaneyIn
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Effects
biko
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Sand

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I suggest you try again because you have dodged my question yet again! With bluffing. It says a lot about you. You quickly redefined Leo Vadrakar as Irish after scrapping your previous definition.

I haven't changed my definition at all.

You said Irish people by your previous definition to this go back generations 5th and 6th century.

I suggest you go back and re-read what I stated. There is no contradiction.

Plus Irish people will become an ethic minority because of multiculturalism!

We are already in a scenario where 1 in 5 of the population was born abroad. I'm not even counting their children which were born in Ireland.

You also DID claim you are defending Irish culture. It was implied in your previous post I posted.

Implied in your perception? So I didn't actually claim that. Glad we cleared that up.

I will give you a week to properly and honestly answer my previous questions.
If not I will exercise the mute function.

Look, to save yourself further embarrassment, you should just take the loss. Do something positive. These irrational and hatefilled rants you're spewing up aren't helping anyone.

Sand

Wibbs wrote: »

That IMHO is why so many - though there have been a couple notable exceptions - pretty quickly go down the road of defensiveness followed by attack(or avoid the debate entirely). They've literally nothing much else to counter with.

True for many. They've been conditioned by media to just instinctively believe that diversity good, multiculturalism good, mass immigration (to Europe) good, white people bad, etc. They've been radicalized by the mainstream. As you say many don't even think about it so struggle when asked to justify these things that they parrot. These people can be reached. If they're confident people, they can take the new information, take it away and reassess what they think. If they're not confident...then you get frenzied responses.

That is complicated by the other media driven narrative. If someone questions diversity or multiculturalism or mass migration, then regardless of how politely or reasonably the points are made they're a full out nazi. No ifs, no buts, no nuance. Anyone who disagrees with the globalist narrative is inherently evil. They're not a person.

It reminds me in someways of the idealogical defences Islam has built up to resist reform or divergence from the message. Simple but effective.

NovemberWren

not sure what this thread is about. but @PrivateRyan, "economists agree that immigration has a net positive......" . Well, that is not a 'Yes'/'No'. It is a : it is/or, it isn't.
Economists are not wrong in this. afar I know the Ireland Plan 2040 is that Ireland will be in receipt of the Euro billions - On Condition - of 50,000 immigrants per year to the year 2040. [fairly sure this was actually stated in the Dail by S.Coveney].

Kivaro

NovemberWren wrote: »

not sure what this thread is about. but @PrivateRyan, "economists agree that immigration has a net positive......" . Well, that is not a 'Yes'/'No'. It is a : it is/or, it isn't.
Economists are not wrong in this. afar I know the Ireland Plan 2040 is that Ireland will be in receipt of the Euro billions - On Condition - of 50,000 immigrants per year to the year 2040. [fairly sure this was actually stated in the Dail by S.Coveney].

It would be interesting to see a link on these 50,000 that we need to bring in every year. That is 1,000,000 migrants by end of this plan. Guess they didn't take a worldwide pandemic into account.

ThunbergsAreGo

NovemberWren wrote: »

not sure what this thread is about. but @PrivateRyan, "economists agree that immigration has a net positive......" . Well, that is not a 'Yes'/'No'. It is a : it is/or, it isn't.
Economists are not wrong in this. afar I know the Ireland Plan 2040 is that Ireland will be in receipt of the Euro billions - On Condition - of 50,000 immigrants per year to the year 2040. [fairly sure this was actually stated in the Dail by S.Coveney].

To be fair there is a large difference between controlled, migration to work (or within the EU) and uncontrolled migration.

I dont think anyone has an issue with controlled migration

[Deleted User]

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

To be fair there is a large difference between controlled, migration to work (or within the EU) and uncontrolled migration.

I dont think anyone has an issue with controlled migration

I do.

It depends on who is being encouraged to be admitted, and how they're being managed after admittance. I generally don't have a problem with people who have the skills/education to live independent of any State support. That kind of immigration is generally a good thing... although Europe has seen a variety of problems with the following generations, which is why I'd like to see a better, more effective system for integration and support.

If we're expected to take in 1mill plus refugees, who don't speak English, don't have any useful skills (and so needs extensive time for education), might have medical or psychological issues, or dubious connections to militant groups, then we really take a moment to consider what's going to happen to Ireland. 50,000 people each year. That's a massive drain on resources, providing welfare, education, medical supports, etc. and there's no guarantee that there will be jobs for them. None. We're entering our own period of where jobs, popular with low income groups, will decline.

It doesn't matter what the EU or the UN provides Ireland.. it won't be enough to cover the costs of those migrants. The cost of supporting these migrants will be taken away from the current population, and from Irish people themselves(in services and tax). So.. what's the net benefit?

ThunbergsAreGo

Deleted User wrote: »

I do.

It depends on who is being encouraged to be admitted, and how they're being managed after admittance. I generally don't have a problem with people who have the skills/education to live independent of any State support. That kind of immigration is generally a good thing... although Europe has seen a variety of problems with the following generations, which is why I'd like to see a better, more effective system for integration and support.

If we're expected to take in 1mill plus refugees, who don't speak English, don't have any useful skills (and so needs extensive time for education), might have medical or psychological issues, or dubious connections to militant groups, then we really take a moment to consider what's going to happen to Ireland. 50,000 people each year. That's a massive drain on resources, providing welfare, education, medical supports, etc. and there's no guarantee that there will be jobs for them. None. We're entering our own period of where jobs, popular with low income groups, will decline.

It doesn't matter what the EU or the UN provides Ireland.. it won't be enough to cover the costs of those migrants. The cost of supporting these migrants will be taken away from the current population, and from Irish people themselves. So.. what's the net benefit?

But do you?

You have an issue with the current controls, not controlled migration itself.

Gervais08

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

To be fair there is a large difference between controlled, migration to work (or within the EU) and uncontrolled migration.

I dont think anyone has an issue with controlled migration

I am baffled how folk cannot see that someone visiting an office in Mumbai, or Lagos, or Helsinki wherever and producing valid legal documents to apply for a needed position that can only be filled by those here already (whether professional, administrative, physical, “menial” etc - and 50 yahoos entering from the eighth or more safe country in a dinghy claiming to be 14!!

[Deleted User]

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

But do you?

You have an issue with the current controls, not controlled migration itself.

Controlled migration doesn't mean bringing in those who are most capable of supporting themselves. It simply means approving people on an approved set of requirements but that could be based on anything.. and I suspect if the EU was footing the bill, they'd get to determine the entry requirements. Skill migrants who availed of the normal visa process would fall outside this 50k intake.. since they're not perceived as being "in need".

Imagine if 30k children were brought in one year. Family unification is a very big thing throughout the UN... so if the children were brought into Ireland alone, their families would be expected to be allowed to join them (international migrant rights), which would likely fall outside the 50k per year intake. so.. yeah.

No, you're right in a way. I have issues with the current controls, but I also have issue with this idea of 50k intake. Controlled migration doesn't mean that the filter applied will be beneficial to Ireland.

Sand

Migration - in the sense that prevents multiculturalism with all its ills - is purely about numbers, and numbers alone.

Its not critical if they arrived legally or illegally, nor if they were refugees or economic migrants. For Ireland, all that matters is how many. If the numbers go beyond what the indigenous people can assimilate naturally, then multiculturalism occurs by definition.

gormdubhgorm

Looking at following ESRI report it clearly sums up this thread succinctly.

Attitudes to Diversity in Ireland (March 2018)

https://www.ihrec.ie/app/uploads/2018/03/Attitudes-to-diversity-in-Ireland.pdf

“Attitudes to immigration and to ethnic diversity differ across social groups. Those with higher levels of education hold much more positive attitudes about the impact of immigration than those with lower levels of education. A number of explanations are discussed in the report, such as the fact that those with higher levels of education tend to be in a financially more secure position, as well as the potential ‘liberalising’ effect of higher education. Those in financial difficulty have more negative attitudes, which is consistent with the argument that this group is more likely to be in competition with migrants for jobs and social benefits/services.”

“The strong effects of financial difficulty and lower educational attainment on attitudes suggest that tackling poverty and poor educational achievement is therefore an important strategy in promoting greater social cohesion between native and immigrant groups. Attitudes to immigration are becoming more positive again with economic recovery but spreading the gains equally is important in terms of reducing perceived threats and prejudice.”

--
--

Yet much of the same people who fear other cultures – namely the working-class Irish. Also fear and/or are not in tune with their own Irish culture in the main. A stark example is the Irish language. Barring exceptions like Gaelscoil Chluain Dolcáin and so on.

My view in corroborated by another ESRI report on attitudes to the Irish language in Ireland.

Attitudes towards the Irish Language on the Island of Ireland (2015)

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/BKMNEXT294_Vol%201.pdf

Wherein it mentions the Irish language survey of 2013:

“Respondents who reported wanting to learn Irish for its own sake were more likely to use Irish currently than those who
learned the language primarily to pass exams, demonstrating the importance of intrinsic motivation in language learning. Fluency and usage of the language were associated with other background characteristics such as higher socio-economic background, higher levels of education, and religion (being Catholic)”

It further states in the ESRI report on attitudes to the Irish language:

“International research indicates that more highly educated parents are more supportive of their children learning an additional language to their mother tongue (Montero et al., 2014).
The education level of parents varied significantly across school types. Figure 5.1 indicates that more educated parents are more likely to choose an Irish-medium primary school for their children outside the Gaeltacht area. Fourteen per cent of parents with a post-graduate degree had chosen Irish-medium schools (6 per cent of such parents chose English medium and 4 per cent Gaeltacht schools).”

There is a definite contradiction and lack of self-awareness of those from lower socio-economic backgrounds in Ireland who have a negative/distant attitude towards the Irish language. Yet at same time many are fearful of other migrant cultures coming to Ireland.

Am I the only one who finds the irony amusing?
Or is it too close to the bone?

As I have already said this backs up my personal experiences, where it is non-Irish born adults who are more open to learning the Irish language, than many working class Irish. Free of baggage and just learn it as a language of communication and for fun. If anyone really wants to understand Irishness you need only look at the language. There are many phrases that are not present in the English language.

Such as the phrase for grudge which is ‘cloch sa mhuinchille’ which literally means ‘stone in sleeve’. A lovely way of putting it!

I think people need to examine their conscience and ask themselves why do the have a grudge against migrants and multiculturalism? And why is it the many of those same people who also have a grudge against their own Irish language?

It is time people stopped hiding those stones in their sleeves.

An bhfuil cloch sa mhuinchille a bheith agat do dhuine ó tir eile, gan cuis maith?
Ma tá, cén fath?

enricoh

Now now folks, only the uneducated lower classes can't see the benefits of multiculturalism to Ireland, these people will be paying our pensions apperently! Not just yet though!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/huge-scale-of-immigration-is-making-our-housing-crisis-worse-35498057.html

Last year, I decided to ask the Department of Social Protection what percentage of rent supplement was paid out to non-Irish EU nationals, and non-EU nationals.

As at February of last year, the figure was 35pc. This is a remarkable total. Remember, 17pc of the population is "foreign-born", so immigrants are over-represented in the figures by two to one.

gormdubhgorm

enricoh wrote: »

Now now folks, only the uneducated lower classes can't see the benefits of multiculturalism to Ireland, these people will be paying our pensions apperently! Not just yet though!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/huge-scale-of-immigration-is-making-our-housing-crisis-worse-35498057.html

Last year, I decided to ask the Department of Social Protection what percentage of rent supplement was paid out to non-Irish EU nationals, and non-EU nationals.

As at February of last year, the figure was 35pc. This is a remarkable total. Remember, 17pc of the population is "foreign-born", so immigrants are over-represented in the figures by two to one.

Plenty of other statistics as well from a more general social welfare viewpoint.

Migrant Access to Social Security and Healthcare: Policies and Practice in Ireland 2014 - ESRI

https://emn.ie/publications/migrant-access-to-social-security-and-healthcare-policies-and-practice-in-ireland/

"The perception that migrants are dependent on social security to a greater extent than the native population is widespread. However, administrative data from the Department of Social Protection on the proportions of Irish and non-Irish nationals in receipt of key welfare payments, show no evidence of a large or systematic over-representation of non-Irish nationals among welfare recipients in Ireland."

gormdubhgorm

Looking at an educational attainment report from the CSO 2019:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/eda/educationalattainmentthematicreport2019/

Education level by nationality - non-Irish nationals have higher education levels

"Irish nationals had a lower educational attainment profile than non-Irish nationals. In Q2 2019, over four in ten Irish nationals (45%) aged 25-64 years old had a third level qualification. In comparison, the other EU15 states (excluding Ireland and the UK) had a third level attainment rate of 72% and other nationalities (non EU28 nationalities) were at 69%. The only nationality group with a lower rate of third level attainment than Irish nationals was the group of nationals from the EU15-28 member states at 40%. See Table 3 and Figure 4."

[Deleted User]

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Plenty of other statistics as well from a more general social welfare viewpoint.

Migrant Access to Social Security and Healthcare: Policies and Practice in Ireland 2014 - ESRI

https://emn.ie/publications/migrant-access-to-social-security-and-healthcare-policies-and-practice-in-ireland/

"The perception that migrants are dependent on social security to a greater extent than the native population is widespread. However, administrative data from the Department of Social Protection on the proportions of Irish and non-Irish nationals in receipt of key welfare payments, show no evidence of a large or systematic over-representation of non-Irish nationals among welfare recipients in Ireland."

"The following groups of migrants are excluded from the scope on the basis that specific rules often apply and/or the group has recently been the subject of an EMN report: students, asylum applicants, refugees, victims of trafficking of human beings and irregular migrants.
12 The social security and healthcare entitlements of short-term visitors and mobile non-EEA nationals, including crossborder and posted workers, are also excluded from the scope of the study"

Page 4. Yup.

iebamm2580

Deleted User wrote: »

"The following groups of migrants are excluded from the scope on the basis that specific rules often apply and/or the group has recently been the subject of an EMN report: students, asylum applicants, refugees, victims of trafficking of human beings and irregular migrants.
12 The social security and healthcare entitlements of short-term visitors and mobile non-EEA nationals, including crossborder and posted workers, are also excluded from the scope of the study"

Page 4. Yup.

ha ffs, good spot

NovemberWren

enricoh wrote: »

Now now folks, only the uneducated lower classes can't see the benefits of multiculturalism to Ireland, these people will be paying our pensions apperently! Not just yet though!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-quinn/huge-scale-of-immigration-is-making-our-housing-crisis-worse-35498057.html

Last year, I decided to ask the Department of Social Protection what percentage of rent supplement was paid out to non-Irish EU nationals, and non-EU nationals.

As at February of last year, the figure was 35pc. This is a remarkable total. Remember, 17pc of the population is "foreign-born", so immigrants are over-represented in the figures by two to one.

'... of rent supplement was "paid out to non-Irish EU nationals,..... etc...

is this a dissonance that is used by the civil servants, Soc.Prot. etc. and should really read: "was paid out to Investors" to pay their second or third mortgages. this language is never questioned by TDs, aka, landlords.

[Deleted User]

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Looking at an educational attainment report from the CSO 2019:

Education level by nationality - non-Irish nationals have higher education levels

"Irish nationals had a lower educational attainment profile than non-Irish nationals. In Q2 2019, over four in ten Irish nationals (45%) aged 25-64 years old had a third level qualification. In comparison, the other EU15 states (excluding Ireland and the UK) had a third level attainment rate of 72% and other nationalities (non EU28 nationalities) were at 69%. The only nationality group with a lower rate of third level attainment than Irish nationals was the group of nationals from the EU15-28 member states at 40%. See Table 3 and Figure 4."
]

And... what's the point you're trying to make? That educational attainment is higher in other European national groups? Ok.... (although considering the criticisms being leveled at university programs worldwide, and it's shallow usefulness in employment, I'm kinda wondering if this result is such a bad thing)

Still... this would suggest that we need more funding for Irish educational institutions along with further initiatives to encourage Irish people towards such qualifications... but how would that happen, when we need to allocate resources towards refugees, migrants, etc?

Cordell

Yes, the rent supplement in its various forms is just as big of a problem as migration, without it the supply and demand balance will have a chance to work, but they fail to see that, because it's now to late to get rid of it.

Yellow_Fern

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Looking at an educational attainment report from the CSO 2019:

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/eda/educationalattainmentthematicreport2019/

Education level by nationality - non-Irish nationals have higher education levels

"Irish nationals had a lower educational attainment profile than non-Irish nationals. In Q2 2019, over four in ten Irish nationals (45%) aged 25-64 years old had a third level qualification. In comparison, the other EU15 states (excluding Ireland and the UK) had a third level attainment rate of 72% and other nationalities (non EU28 nationalities) were at 69%. The only nationality group with a lower rate of third level attainment than Irish nationals was the group of nationals from the EU15-28 member states at 40%. See Table 3 and Figure 4."

I said the same thing a few pages back. Non-EU migrants tend to have high education levels even if you isolate groups such as African migrants. However, this is a crude analysis and it doesn't take into account age. Migrants are much younger than Irish people. Education is not always helpful for employment and the massive unemployment in some non-EU migrants groups confirms that their education is not being valued by the Irish labour market. This might be because education in poor countries is often weak, even at the university level. It could also be that the refugee process is selecting for people with degrees that are useless in Ireland. It could also be that allowing people to appeal rejected refugee applications deskills people as they wait in limbo for years. Which is another reason to have a tougher asylum system that is more willing to deport failed applicants.

TomTomTim

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1316625888352575489

I remember several posters who used to constantly tell us these types all got deported.

Wibbs

TomTomTim wrote: »

https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1316625888352575489

I remember several posters who used to constantly tell us these types all got deported.

Ah god no. Too many NGO's with their snouts in the trough pushing this "diversity" bollocks, with the help of some in the media pushing a noting to really see here. NB they're described as "undocumented", not what they are illegal immigrants.

I also note that apparently and I quote:

"It also found that 26% of those working were doing so in elder care in private homes"

How the hell are they able to do that? No Garda background checks? How did they get such jobs and through what agencies? That's another thing that needs to be tackled, those that employ such people and almost certainly for a lot less than locals.

macpaccrack

Wibbs wrote: »

Ah god no. Too many NGO's with their snouts in the trough pushing this "diversity" bollocks, with the help of some in the media pushing a noting to really see here. NB they're described as "undocumented", not what they are illegal immigrants.

I also note that apparently and I quote:

"It also found that 26% of those working were doing so in elder care in private homes"

How the hell are they able to do that? No Garda background checks? How did they get such jobs and through what agencies? That's another thing that needs to be tackled, those that employ such people and almost certainly for a lot less than locals.

Wibbs reading your early posts they were so informative, intelligent and interesting. As I read more through your posts I noticed that you started to become more misogynistic, engaging in far right nonsense and just seem bitter and angry with the world.

I am just wondering did something happen in your life for you to change so drastically in the last few years? You used to talk a lot about love, relationships and women but now it seems you only want to talk about male rights, white rights etc.

iebamm2580

tbh 3/4 working is decent, its the spongers who come here and try to get on welfare for life i have the problem with.

biko

macpaccrack wrote: »

Wibbs reading your early posts they were so informative, intelligent and interesting. As I read more through your posts I noticed that you started to become more misogynistic, engaging in far right nonsense and just seem bitter and angry with the world.

I am just wondering did something happen in your life for you to change so drastically in the last few years? You used to talk a lot about love, relationships and women but now it seems you only want to talk about male rights, white rights etc.

"What happened to you man? You used to be cool". Says the poster that registered 8 weeks ago...

macpaccrack

biko wrote: »

"What happened to you man? You used to be cool". Says the poster that registered 8 weeks ago...

Theres a search function :rolleyes:

The bar for modship here must be really low with Einstein's like Biko

TomTomTim

macpaccrack wrote: »

Theres a search function :rolleyes:

The bar for modship here must be really low with Einstein's like Biko

You're trying to shame others for their beliefs, yet a quick look at your posting history shows that you support political violence against people that you don't like, under the guise of "fighting fascism". People like you have no right to try and shame others, certainly not here anyway, as not one posters here thinks it's just to beat people up over politics.

Wibbs

macpaccrack wrote: »

Wibbs reading your early posts they were so informative, intelligent and interesting. As I read more through your posts I noticed that you started to become more misogynistic, engaging in far right nonsense and just seem bitter and angry with the world.

"Misogynistic"; questioning the increasing nonsense of the accepted truth of "feminism". Guilty as charged. OK pick any current argument from feminism that doesn't fit this rule: Women are always agentless victims and men/the "patriarchy" are always to blame. Just one will do.

"Far right nonsense"; questioning another accepted truth of multiculturalism that is demonstrably negative in so many ways, not least for those migrants who don't fit the existing society in colour or culture. Guilty as charged. I support the welfare state, free education and healthcare for all, restrictions on big business, equal rights on the basis of gender, politics, sexuality and race. Yeah, clearly I'm alt right. :rolleyes: Again this seems to confuse some.

This thread quite amply demonstrates that those in favour of multiculturalism, including the most vocal can give almost zero examples of positives for the (inevitably White and European) societies where this operates. They seem to tap out at exotic food and exoticism in general. To a degree that genuinely surprised me.

Then of course when the near zero weight argument fails they inevitably run to insult, veiled or direct, which shows the paucity of their argument, again to a degree that surprised me. I really did think there would be way more substantive debate on the pro side, but it seems I myself didn't explore the topic much and accepted it as much as they do. Your post falls into the veiled category. Zero substantive argument over any of my posts, so try and do a yellow pack pop psychology that explains away any argument you're not able to engage in.

I am just wondering did something happen in your life for you to change so drastically in the last few years? You used to talk a lot about love, relationships and women but now it seems you only want to talk about male rights, white rights etc.

Nope, if anything I'm more content these days. I only talked about that stuff in PI, when I was modding there, because that lot makes up a majority of posts in that forum(with some of that when modding the ladies lounge). My general take hasn't changed on the above, but if that's what you want to read as my general take on everything be my guest.

And again - and this seems to be a hard nut to crack for the One Truth ponies of any hue - just because someone takes a position against a politic it doesn't follow they take that position against people. Indeed beyond the obvious BS and victimhood of current feminism one major reason I can't stand that politic is it doesn't represent the vast majority of women I know and have known who weren't mewling saints of the Church of Latter Day Victimhood.

macpaccrack

TomTomTim wrote: »

You're trying to shame others for their beliefs, yet a quick look at your posting history shows that you support political violence against people that you don't like, under the guise of "fighting fascism". People like you have no right to try and shame others, certainly not here anyway, as not one posters here thinks it's just to beat people up over politics.

Im not shaming him, I am actually curious to find out what changed for him in his life from going from a positive, happy go lucky poster who was more interested in relationships and social interaction to railing against immigrants and female rights.

Something had to have happened and I want to know what. No more, no less.

Wibbs

macpaccrack wrote: »

Im not shaming him, I am actually curious to find out what changed for him in his life from going from a positive, happy go lucky poster who was more interested in relationships and social interaction to railing against immigrants and female rights.

Something had to have happened and I want to know what. No more, no less.

Me. Above. For clarity. wrote:

Nope, if anything I'm more content these days. I only talked about that stuff in PI, when I was modding there, because that lot makes up a majority of posts in that forum(with some of that when modding the ladies lounge). My general take hasn't changed on the above, but if that's what you want to read as my general take on everything be my guest.

Pretty simple really. When I post in the motors forum I talk about cars. It doesn't mean I hate cyclists.