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ESB eCars

liamog

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously; additional high power chargers at 34 current 50 kW locations; upgrading over 50 22 kW chargers to 50 kW, and replacing up to 264 locations with 528 charge points at the pre-existing pilot grade of 22 kW to next generation high reliability models.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

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markpb

Black_Knight wrote: »

Hard to justify it. Ionity are 350kW units (software limited to 175kW), but they are not load balanced. Esb could easily be giving you 75kW max because the unit it load balanced, yet asking for premium pricing.

The only fair way of doing it would be to charge at the rate you're actually getting, i.e. 60c (for example) for each kW provided above 50 and 23c for each kW provided below 50. That's a bit complicated to explain to customers though so I can't see them going for it. If they charge 60c no matter the actual rate, I'd be very annoyed and if they charge 23c, we'll see all sorts of silly cars pulling 44kW the entire time and defeating the purpose of them.

innrain

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess they will price the "High Power" units closer to Ionity prices than to their existing DC fast chargers... I'm guessing around €0.60 per kW, and maybe ~€0.50 with a subscription.

My bet is for something around €0.35 - €0.40 subscription/payg

Kramer

Black_Knight wrote: »

Hard to justify it..............Esb could easily be..............asking for premium pricing.

Nothing premium about ECars or their 3x 150kW chargers (single CCS on each)

.
The "premium" should be 5c/kWh over a 50kW unit, just to differentiate them & keep the Leafs on the older unit :P. Why people keep seeding these ideas of paying €0.60+/kWh, I don't know. It'll make no difference to ECars, just like pumping more taxpayer money into RTE etc.

Why can't EV owners advocate that ECars match Tesla supercharger charges?

Black_Knight

markpb wrote: »

The only fair way of doing it would be to charge at the rate you're actually getting, i.e. 60c (for example) for each kW provided above 50 and 23c for each kW provided below 50. That's a bit complicated to explain to customers though so I can't see them going for it. If they charge 60c no matter the actual rate, I'd be very annoyed and if they charge 23c, we'll see all sorts of silly cars pulling 44kW the entire time and defeating the purpose of them.

Within reason... Cars can limit the rate of charge too. In an ideal world if the charge point splits charge, it should give a reduced rate. If the charge point has a low power supply (looking at you Portlaoise ESB depo) it should be a reduced rate. If a unit can't communicate back to home (which blocks charging currently) it should free vend.

It'd kick ECars into gear to actually supply some accountable charge points.

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Why can't EV owners advocate that ECars match Tesla supercharger charges?

Because I don't want to pay 45k for a charging membership that comes with a free car

ELM327

Just goes to show the benefit of free market.
I did a 675km round trip today from meath to cork and back via dublin. Charged to 95% at home, charged in Tesla ballacolla (50-90%), charged in Ionity Cashel on the way back (full speed free vend from Ionity, 8% - 80%), stopped for a quick pee and nosy in Ionity Kill north (free vend, low power) and took on 10kWh.

Avoided ecars, and avoided the new ripoff easy go.

I avoided the J17 M7 Ecars "hpc" "hub" due to probable freeloaders and also load balancing.

Cyrus

ELM327 wrote: »

Just goes to show the benefit of free market.
I did a 675km round trip today from meath to cork and back via dublin. Charged to 95% at home, charged in Tesla ballacolla (50-90%), charged in Ionity Cashel on the way back (full speed free vend from Ionity, 8% - 80%), stopped for a quick pee and nosy in Ionity Kill north (free vend, low power) and took on 10kWh.

Avoided ecars, and avoided the new ripoff easy go.

I avoided the J17 M7 Ecars "hpc" "hub" due to probable freeloaders and also load balancing.

how come ionity was free vend?

One Question

I’m wondering what you mean by “hub”? Thanks.

Kramer wrote: »

From the new charge point thread:

Remember, we are paying for these through taxation & from commercial charges.

ESB/eCars are supplying, installing & maintaining these. Tesco just have to supply a few parking spaces & reap the kudos for being green.

We are 100% paying for charge points 99% of us will likely never use, unlike intercity/motorway hubs, which 99%+ of EV drivers would sometimes/often use.

Approaching 2021 & another €10 million pumped in, along with charges now - not one single hub nor even a hint of one :rolleyes:.

One Question

Disregard previous. I see it means two or more chargers to ESB anyway 😁

ELM327

Cyrus wrote: »

how come ionity was free vend?

No idea, but I drove up and it said on the screen "currently free vend, press to start" so I did.
The only bad part is anyone could press "stop" when I was in the shop as no RFID/app was needed to start or stop the charge

I put a photo of kill free vend on plugshare earlier - so you can see what the screens looked like

slave1

LOL, don't look that gift horse in the mouth

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

No idea, but I drove up and it said on the screen "currently free vend, press to start" so I did.
The only bad part is anyone could press "stop" when I was in the shop as no RFID/app was needed to start or stop the charge

I put a photo of kill free vend on plugshare earlier - so you can see what the screens looked like

I'm not 100% sure, but I heard the Tritium chargers in Norway go to free vend when they lose their internet connection. Maybe it's the same thing here?

Black_Knight

ELM327 wrote: »

No idea, but I drove up and it said on the screen "currently free vend, press to start" so I did.
The only bad part is anyone could press "stop" when I was in the shop as no RFID/app was needed to start or stop the charge

I put a photo of kill free vend on plugshare earlier - so you can see what the screens looked like

AFAIK that "Stop" button is always there. RFID or not. At least that's how I remember it when I last charged there.

zg3409

Kramer wrote: »

Nothing premium about ECars or their 3x 150kW chargers (single CCS on each) .
The "premium" should be 5c/kWh over a 50kW unit, just to differentiate them & keep the Leafs on the older unit :P. Why people keep seeding these ideas of paying €0.60+/kWh, I don't know. It'll make no difference to ECars, just like pumping more taxpayer money into RTE etc.

Why can't EV owners advocate that ECars match Tesla supercharger charges?

The issue at the moment is lack of 40+kW chargers, not the cost per kW. Even if cost is high 95% of trips will be on home charging, even long trips could be 70% home charging at start and end of trip. My fees after nearly a year of fees is less than 10 euro to ESB.

If the 40+ kW chargers are not financially viable then they won't exist long term. Ionity is/was subsidised. Tesla is/was subsidised. Easygo may be making a loss at many sites. They removed the 50kW charger from Monaghan. The ESB was free for many years. The ESB upfront costs have been heavily subsidised by public and ESB and EU. They still are having trouble getting good sites for chargers just like easygo, ionity and Tesla.

There was talk of each 50kW costs roughly 60,000 when you take into account, charger, ground works, labour, connection charge, Lufe of these chargers is probably 6 years. Since fees came in I pass 2 town based sites regularly and I have only seen then in use twice. So I doubt any non major road charger is paying its way. That said ESB have first mover advantage, and they have chargers at key points on the motorway network. I presume they are trying to keep their investment costs low, while maximising usage. For users that means queues at peak times at peak locations. It also means long distance trips are a gamble. The free market does not really work with one dominant player, and most if not all loss making. There is a sweet spot between price, number of chargers, locations and network size. It may be 4 or 5 years before real market forces apply, maybe 10 years or more.

The north is a total disaster with many broken chargers, no investment for years, but its free to charge.

Kramer

zg3409 wrote: »

My fees after nearly a year of fees is less than 10 euro to ESB.

That's probably 200kms worth of public charging then, in a year for you.
One return trip for me to Belfast would require 500km+ of public charging, probably 100kWhs. On ESB fast chargers, that would cost close to €30.
At 60c/kWh, it would be closer to €60.

At €60, I'd leave the EV at home & take my 5 series petrol, all day, every day.

It depends on individual use but very high charging costs, especially on inter-city/motorway routes, will disincentivize EV use & end up with unsustainable, unused chargers.

Costs hugely influence EV owners. Look at how the DC chargers were largely abandoned once relatively affordable charges came in & how people flock to free 22kW AC points, as long as they are free

.

I think it's an Irish thing, like cheap motor tax & the immersion heater mentality.

Kramer

ELM327 wrote:

The only bad part is anyone could press "stop" when I was in the shop as no RFID/app was needed to start or stop the charge

Black_Knight wrote: »

AFAIK that "Stop" button is always there.

I hear moves are afoot to make Ionity install a few of these babies right smack on the front of the units.................

unkel

Depressing that it is still the way the ESB spends our tax money on these 2 stall super hubs :rolleyes:

In other news Tesla is about to install the first 200+ stall Supercharger hubs, CCS only, first one in LA. Cost to the tax payer: nothing

slave1

zg3409 wrote: »

.... Tesla is/was subsidised...

And how and where is this evident?

zg3409

slave1 wrote: »

And how and where is this evident?

What I mean is they had free charging for life, and some cars still do, although they have removed this benefit from cars they resold. They have also installed far more stalls at each site than is financially viable. There is no way any of these Tesla sites are breaking even based on charging fees, they are highly subsidised by new vehicle sales, and they won't even allow non teslas to fuel up at any price. Some owners bought a Tesla partly for guaranteed availability of chargers on key routes in Ireland and Europe and promote this. Comparing ESB to Tesla are very different business models. You could say 5000 euro of each Tesla sold goes on charging network and you may not be wrong in terms of network cost, and the premium buyers place on access to a reliable and cheap charging network.

In terms of 30 euro or 60 euro to fill up on a long run, I suspect this will be the norm, cheap home charging, expensive motorway charging. Similar to the price of coffee in petrol stations. I would prefer high cost, good network, vs low cost single 50kW chargers. For those that have an ICE it makes perfect sense to take the ICE on long trips, indeed I have access to two ICE for long trips and even if charging was free I still worry about chargers being busy, blocked and broken. Having lower prices won't give us hubs.

MJohnston

Kramer wrote: »

That's probably 200kms worth of public charging then, in a year for you.
One return trip for me to Belfast would require 500km+ of public charging, probably 100kWhs. On ESB fast chargers, that would cost close to €30.
At 60c/kWh, it would be closer to €60.

At €60, I'd leave the EV at home & take my 5 series petrol, all day, every day.

It depends on individual use but very high charging costs, especially on inter-city/motorway routes, will disincentivize EV use & end up with unsustainable, unused chargers.

Costs hugely influence EV owners. Look at how the DC chargers were largely abandoned once relatively affordable charges came in & how people flock to free 22kW AC points, as long as they are free .

I think it's an Irish thing, like cheap motor tax & the immersion heater mentality.

If this is all true, you’re not planning your route very well given that all Northern Irish ESB chargers are free to use

Also where are you travelling from?

Black_Knight

MJohnston wrote: »

If this is all true, you’re not planning your route very well given that all Northern Irish ESB chargers are free to use

Also where are you travelling from?

And the first X km are at 8c/kWh given you've charged to full at home.

I get your angle though. People, for whatever reason, are very short sighted when it comes to costs. Spending money to save money is a concept that's very hard to grasp for some.

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

If this is all true, you’re not planning your route very well given that all Northern Irish ESB chargers are free to use

Au contraire mon frère:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=114152579

I'd rather pluck my eyebrows out, than depend on public charging north of the border again :pac:.

slave1

slave1 wrote: »

And how and where is this evident?

zg3409 wrote: »

What I mean is they had free charging for life, and some cars still do, although they have removed this benefit from cars they resold. They have also installed far more stalls at each site than is financially viable. There is no way any of these Tesla sites are breaking even based on charging fees, they are highly subsidised by new vehicle sales, and they won't even allow non teslas to fuel up at any price. Some owners bought a Tesla partly for guaranteed availability of chargers on key routes in Ireland and Europe and promote this. Comparing ESB to Tesla are very different business models. You could say 5000 euro of each Tesla sold goes on charging network and you may not be wrong in terms of network cost, and the premium buyers place on access to a reliable and cheap charging network.

In terms of 30 euro or 60 euro to fill up on a long run, I suspect this will be the norm, cheap home charging, expensive motorway charging. Similar to the price of coffee in petrol stations. I would prefer high cost, good network, vs low cost single 50kW chargers. For those that have an ICE it makes perfect sense to take the ICE on long trips, indeed I have access to two ICE for long trips and even if charging was free I still worry about chargers being busy, blocked and broken. Having lower prices won't give us hubs.

Fair enough points, your OP alluded to some sort of Gov subsidy.
Absolutely the cost of a Tesla includes a contribution to the network, the same as it contributes to covering costs, profit etc etc.
Thank fuk Tesla are committed to the "if we build it, they will come" philosophy, it's playing the long game but great independent company strategy, ballsie.
It's part of the reason why I bought a used S over the likes of a Niro

Kramer

Black_Knight wrote: »

And the first X km are at 8c/kWh given you've charged to full at home.

I get your angle though.

Yes, I had deducted the first 225km from the journey, as I would be leaving fully charged. Hence I just used the 500km I'd need until home again the following day.

Limerick to Belfast

MJohnston

Kramer wrote: »

Yes, I had deducted the first 225km from the journey, as I would be leaving fully charged. Hence I just used the 500km I'd need until home again the following day.

Limerick to Belfast

I’m surprised you can’t find a reliable slow charger for overnight while you’re up there. I would go up to Bangor a lot to visit family, and I’d leave my car parked at one of the AC chargers overnight to ensure I’m at 100% for the return journey.

But either way, I’d still be happy enough with 60c super fast chargers if it meant there were loads of them. Even though this one particular trip might work out at a loss compared to what an ICE car might manage, I’m still way ahead for the year as a whole.

I don’t even think the loss would be that big either. For you, Limerick to Belfast and back would be around €60 roughly. For a BMW 520d, the same journey at pre-lockdown diesel prices would have been around €50.

If you could chip into that €60 with some lower price slow charging (or even just regular fast charging), then the gap disappears.

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

Details from the dail on the eCars €10,000,000 expansion programme.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-01-24/10/?fbclid=IwAR1eGLQjNFuywCoaB__FJADns7gNOD09DaR9XLueHAKZ8vljfd-kL-_LpDs

liamog wrote: »

The key elements include six high speed charging hubs on motorways capable of charging eight vehicles simultaneously; 16 high speed charging hubs capable of charging four vehicles simultaneously

From the first post of this thread, 20 months ago now & €10,000,000 later.

Of the key elements, we've got 3x 150kW single chargers, sorry, hubs :rolleyes:.
As I said before, expect completion around the time the national fibre rollout is complete. It's abysmal progress despite the network being almost 100% gifted to ECars for free, millions of additional taxpayer funds being pumped in & charging for charging being in now, almost a year.

Would 10x strategically placed motorway hubs, with 4x 150kW chargers per site, really be too much to expect before 2030?

AndyBoBandy

Kramer wrote: »

Would 10x strategically placed motorway hubs, with 4x 150kW chargers per site, really be too much to expect before 2030?

could you just imagine.....

2 of the 150's being twin CCS only, and the other 2 being CCS/Chademo, with the option to add/remove CCS/Chademo as the market requires...

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

Would 10x strategically placed motorway hubs, with 4x 150kW chargers per site, really be too much to expect before 2030?

Yes

the_amazing_raisin

I tried working out if the paid eCars plan is worth the expense and the numbers I came up with were pretty dire.
Maybe someone could check my maths to ensure I'm not miles (or kilometres) off?

ESB eCars|PAYG|Paid
||
DC price (€/kWh)|0.305|0.268
Monthly fee (€)|0|4.6
Saving (vs Free) (€/kWh)|0|0.037
||
Break even kWh per year|0|1491.89189189189
Efficiency (kWh/100km)|18|18
Break even km per year|0|8288.28828828829
||
Annual DC driving (km)|1000|1000
Annual DC charge (kWh)|180|180
Annual charging cost (€)|54.9|48.24
Annual subscription costs (€)|0|55.2
||
Total Annual cost (€)|54.9|103.44

With a break even of over 8000km of DC charging only then it seems like the paid plan is totally useless to all but the heaviest road users

liamog

Kramer wrote: »

Would 10x strategically placed motorway hubs, with 4x 150kW chargers per site, really be too much to expect before 2030?

Month 20 of a 3 year plan, based on the progress of the other components of the plan we don't have reason to doubt they'll deliver what they promised. I think everyone here would of prioritised the work differently but they are doing what they said they would. We should give eCars a kicking if they think an 8 charger hub is 4 CCS chargers and 4 CHAdeMO chargers, that's a 4 car hub.