Sand wrote: » Entirely true.
Sand wrote: » Would you be okay with Irish people being a minority in Ireland, so long as the new majority where hard working, well educated and socially liberal? Essentially better people in your view than the Irish working class.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » When you say Irish you mean white do you? Because in future the Irish working class will not be predominantly of one shade. Those who are hard working will thrive as simple as that.
Sand wrote: » I mean the European ethnic group commonly described as Irish, who primarily descend from the same people who lived on the island of Ireland in the 5th-6th century and even before. Those Irish people. Would you be okay with that ethnic group becoming a minority in their own homeland? So long as they were displaced by better, more productive and cost effective workers?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Mask is really slipping on you isn't it? I have no problem with any law abiding citizen(s) coming to Ireland and making a life for themselves. Much as many of our current and past relations did/do going to other countries on the globe. It is the way the world works in an open capitalist society.
Sand wrote: » I think it is your mask that is slipping. Irish people would never support policies which resulted in their own people becoming a minority in their own country, whereas you clearly do. Your own views are extremist, inhuman and out of step with what most people - any people in fact - hope for their country and their families.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I have it is the Irish working class that is the issue. I will tell you why.
1) Blue collar workers manual labour - where all you need is two arms and to legs 2) Lack of education. 3) More prone to casual racism 4) Blame migrants for thier issues
Rinse and repeat. Then any migrant who is integrated and educated is viewed the exception rather than the rule. All it takes is a few migrants who are viewed as spongers/dole cheats and criminals to say ah sure they are all at it!
In my opinion. People who are confident in themselves and thier own culture would have no real issue with multiculturalism.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » You are some packet - inhuman?! extremist?! What? Explain!
Your excuse for Irish people not speaking Irish as thier first language was laughable and weak.
Next you say your definition of Irish people are those who came from the 5th/6th centuries!!?? Which in your view seems to be non-extremist???
Completely ignoring all the cross pollination since! I bet you have family with Norman names!?
If you are having a laugh fair play. If not I feel a bit sorry for you! All the stuff about an 'Irish race' was a very recent creation from Irish Republicans in the early part of last century! Well done!
Sand wrote: » You're unconcerned or even supportive of policies that would lead to the Irish being a minority in their own homeland. That is extremist. You only evaluate outcomes on the basis of them creating a more productive workforce for corporations. That is inhuman.
Forgive me for not clarifying earlier that I wont necessarily follow you off into the weeds of some tangent or distraction. My point was the Irish speak English because of the unique historical experience of the Irish people. It doesn't need an excuse. It simply is a historical fact and essentially part of the culture of Irish people as they exist today. You ranting about 20th century language policy doesn't change that.
Studies are increasingly showing that European populations are overwhelmingly living in the same place their ancestors did. The idea of mass migrations throughout history is the exception, not the rule.
I don't. Even if I did you seem to think that Irish and Gaelic are interchangeable and unchanging. They're not. The Irish people are an ethnic group which overwhelmingly descends from Gaelic people, but which also assimilated English, Scots, Normans, Vikings etc. Those non-Gaelic peoples were always a tiny, tiny minority in Ireland though. To place things in their proper context, 1 in 5 of Ireland's population was born abroad - that is unheard of.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » More red herring bullshít! You need only look at the proliferation of Norman names in Ireland which places your statement on what Irishness is - not on sand but on quicksand! .
Deleted User wrote: » I wish you would because you keep saying it, but don't provide any evidence to support that belief. And before you claim, that we haven't either, most recent posts are still talking about things which were evidenced earlier in the thread. Your belief is new.
Ok, but you have a very limited view of Blue collar, since many traditionally held Blue Collar jobs require certification or the LC behind them. So they're not completely lacking in education.
You still have to explain though why the lack of education is a problem for working class workers, and connect it to your claim of being particularly biased against immigrants.
As for casual racism... I suspect that's a stereotype taken from the British rather than the Irish. Still... even if they do... A lot of immigration relates to white people (Eastern Europeans, or other EU citizens), so do they have a problem with them, or just the Black people?
Except, any migrant who is educated and integrates is the exception rather than the rule. You have yet to show how this is not the case.
I'm not a blue collar worker. I'm highly educated (2 Bachelors, MBA, various diplomas), and I believe that such are a rarity of immigrants who don't fall within the traditional legal forms of migration (Visas). Asylum seekers, refugees, and economic migrants, do fall outside the normal visa rules, and typically, are not educated or integrate well. That's been shown throughout Europe already. So... what are you going to show us to prove what you say is more accurate?
That's nice. Now... read back over the last ten pages. Ten pages won't take you that long... then, consider what is said within those pages about multiculturalism... Because that last sentence shows that you still haven't read anything of the thread, and have simply plonked yourself in here. Not being rude... but you're expecting everything to be regurgitated for your benefit...
gormdubhgorm wrote: » So was Darren Sutherland (Boxer) was he Irish to you? Is Leo Varadkar Irish to you?
Are footballers Gavin Bazunu, Michael Obafemi, and Adam Idah Irish to you?
I fear your definition of Irishness is very narrow considering you only view Irishness as being white fellas from the 5th/6th century. Even rules Ray Darcy. He is a bit Norman don't you know?
Ireland is capitalist society and those who do not succeed in that society are maintained by the welfare state. I see that as very humane
Irish society and culture.
Your view of Irishness seems extremely narrow based on the 5th or 6th century -
Yes it does it paints you as a grade A hypocrite going on about Irish culture as if you find it sacred.
More red herring bullshít! You need only look at the proliferation of Norman names in Ireland which places your statement on what Irishness is - not on sand but on quicksand!
You seem to believe the Irish are unchanging in your view Ireland is still based on the tribes which made up the misnomer - Celts! You are the one who had gone on about Irish as a people from the 5c and 6c. There has been 1000 years of intermarriage between the Normans, Anglo-Irish, Saxons and so on!
You are parroting a Republican myth that was manufactured around the late 19th/ early 20th century! I find it hilarious you believe it! You are definitely having me on.
Kivaro wrote: » Is it a coincidence that those who want open borders also question our Irish culture ..... as if we have none? They ask us to define our Irish culture, which is a request rooted in sheer ignorance and abject resentment. You will also notice that they interject "the pub" a number of times in their attempt to try and reduce our culture to just alcohol. I almost have pity for them.
Deleted User wrote: » You're missing a rather obvious point though. Norman, viking, Saxon, etc, all came from within Europe, and happened at a period of time when populations were quite low compared to today. The vast majority of the migration we are seeing coming into Ireland and Europe, comes from outside of Europe, and is happening to nations that are well established. Any migration we see from EU member states, share a commonality of culture and values through a shared history, along with connections with the RCC. You seem to be wanting to make some big point about historical migration but the simple truth is that Europe has never seen a comparable point of migration to what it's seeing today. The numbers far outweigh anything that has gone before, and will be much greater as time goes by. You do realise that migration is not going to diminish, and will increase dramatically over the next 20 years? In the far reaches of the past, migration happened with countries which were undergoing the development of their national identities. America, Australia, etc all were essentially new states, with a new national character that would come from it's migrants. Throughout history, anywhere you want to look, you will find a dislike of 'mass' immigration into countries which had an established national culture. It's only really since WW2, and the UN creation of migrant rights, that attitude has changed... but even then, look around. Not many countries are open to mass immigration.. with the possible exception of western nations. Which, thankfully, seems to be changing.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Many immigrants who come here will see little difference between England/Scotland and Wales. That is just fact so we might as well let other cultures in because Ireland is badly in need of a revamp.
Kivaro wrote: » And there we have it ..... Over 20% of the population in Ireland were born outside of the country, but yet we are still in need of a ................ "revamp".
Sand wrote: » Both of those men are of Irish ethnic descent. Adam Idah is of Irish ethnic descent too. The other two aren't any more Irish than Tony Cascarino. Obafemi in particular was born in Ireland to non-Irish parents who moved to England and raised him in London. I fear you didn't read my last post. Of course you see it that way. Extremists always think they're just being sensible. But you deny there is such a thing as an Irish people or an Irish society or an Irish culture. So which is it? Do they Irish exist or don't they? I suggest you familiarize yourself with the rules around Irish citizenship if you want a shock. Its primarily based on descent from an Irish parent. I think the Irish people have a right to develop and change their culture as they see fit. A 1000 years ago the inhabitants of Ireland primarily spoke Gaelic. Today they primarily speak English. But the Irish people today are still overwhelmingly the descendants of those Gaelic speakers 1000 years ago. You're in denial of reality. Nope. Viking/Normans/English/Scottish invaders/settlers were always a tiny minority in Ireland. They were assimilated by the much larger native population over time. You're parroting convenient myths that were created in just the last 20 years to serve corporate interests. Sadly, I'm sure you believe it.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » I have already mentioned Ola Majekodunmi from Radio na Life and born in Nigeria, And lecturer Dr Abdullahi El-Tom. Both Gaeilgeoir's with more interest in Irish culture than many who want to keep the forrinirs out! I even know another Irish speaker from Moscow!
Dr Abdullahi El-Tom
That is what I meant these days LC/equivalent is a minimal requirement for any sort of a decent start. Barring learning a trade.
Because thier lack of education means they are more prone to prejudice, in my experience.
Many do have a prejudice, funniest one I saw was an Irish fella f'n and blinding about Polish etc in the sauna. Polish people entered the sauna he went quiet. Went to leave then slipped when climbing down the benches. Finalindignity for him was when the Polish lads helped him up and he went bright red. Left in silence. Not a word of thanks.
It only appears to be the exception because it is a new phenomenon in Ireland. There are not massive numbers of migrants here yet. But despite this our hospitals are full of exotically named doctors. And we have an exocially named Taoiseach. Given time it will become the norm as the second generation of the 'new Irish' reach thier 20's.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » That is what the poster said though - 'Sand' it was daft stuff. At least you are making a coherent point. America, Australia, etc were being conquered and the indigenous populations were being wiped out. I have no dislike of mass immigration to Ireland because in my view Ireland has a very lukewarm (at best/confused at worst) sense of Irishness. Many immigrants who come here will see little difference between England/Scotland and Wales. That is just fact so we might as well let other cultures in because Ireland is badly in need of a revamp.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » ... Because change is inevitable as Ireland matures as nation and moves away from old myths.
Deleted User wrote: » L Which means nothing, since you knew nothing about the backgrounds of the people involved, and can't verify anything. You're very conveniently jumping between migrant groups. Honestly, I see little point discussing this topic until you stop doing so. Yup. I snipped the rest, because there's little point continuing considering the manner of your posts so far.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » This thread is proof of it many off the wall people with an off the wall mentality.Once they die off Ireland will settle down for the better. Might be the odd working class riot, but it will give an opportunity for a rebuild.
gormdubhgorm wrote: » Only coinvent when you don't agree with it seems. All that education seems to be wasted. I suppose you could lead a rabble maybe?
gormdubhgorm wrote: » It only takes time. Look at England/UK you can clearly see the social mobility of those from migrant backgrounds. And how one group from abc leaves an area and betters themselves and another from xyz moves in. I see nothing wrong with that aspect Most of it was dire stuff from a small cohort of posters - learnt nothing from it really. There was some fairly disturbing views.
Deleted User wrote: » I'm getting the rather strong impression that you're not even Irish... Your logic is... bizarre.
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