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Home heating automation

[Deleted User]

Just starting to look into this now though probably wont be purchasing for a while unless a bargain pops up.

I know there are a number of options out there for this but many like the Nest for example appear to be mostly based around running automatically depending on temp etc or learning your usage.

What I want to know is which one is best to use like a traditional timer? I'd want to set a schedule for heating and water to come on and off and also boost it if I felt like it. Learning my usage or using the thermostat to turn on/off the heating is not something I would really use.

I do want to be able to boost the heat and water remotely so the place is warm before arriving home and have a nice interface for setting timers using an app as we change around our water and heating timing quite often and its a pain having to do this using the poor user interfaces and controls on a traditional heating timer.

I'm assuming they can all be used in this way but I wonder if any device in particular is more geared towards this type of usage?

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emaherx

deezell wrote: »

He's assuming the wifi controlled din rail contacor has rubbish contacts compared to a standard voltage controlled contacter. A few € extra buys the 50a version of this. Its purely a resistive load, so the arcing will be minimal. My only issue with din rail breakers and contactors in general is their cycle rating, are they made for multiple operations in a short time? I'd imagine 3 or 4 HW immersion calls during a day wouldn't tax it.

True, It's a resistive load but, potential for heat being built up on those contacts is high given that a 3KW heater will draw the full 3KW for potentially hours (especially large tanks for solar etc.). I've seen enough imerssion heater switches fail because of this and they were designed specifically for immersion heaters. Those relays in the smart switches have no hope of disapating excess heat and will fail.

Brusna

emaherx wrote: »

The quality of these smart devices comming from China mostly, I'd also seriously question the claimed ratings on some of them.

And experience, I've seen what the inside of many Schneider Electric contactors looks like and having looked inside the smart switches I can't see how they'd claim to be the same ratings.

This is a fairly common story around the net.
https://support.itead.cc/support/discussions/topics/11000012976

just looking at the size of the relays inside the smart switch, you'd barely fit the concats from a decent Schneider Electric inside one of those let alone the coil.

That’s fair enough. I have this Schneider Electric contactor.

https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/GC2520M5/tests-gc---modular-contactor---25-a---2-no---coil-220...240-v-ac/

Physically it’s the same size as the smart switch but I take your point re the quality of the products. I can’t find any detailed specifications for the smart switch which would put me off as well.

emaherx

Brusna wrote: »

That’s fair enough. I have this Schneider Electric contactor.

https://www.se.com/ww/en/product/GC2520M5/tests-gc---modular-contactor---25-a---2-no---coil-220...240-v-ac/

Physically it’s the same size as the smart switch but I take your point re the quality of the products. I can’t find any detailed specifications for the smart switch which would put me off as well.

I'd have a lot more faith in that, it may be physically the same size, but if you open them the smart switch will have a smaller relay and the electronics to control it.

I doubt it is a proper contactor as claimed, they also call it a circuit breaker but in description say it has no over current protection.

[Deleted User]

I use a 4ch Dinrail sonoff to control 4 abb contactors

theintern

Random question as I can't seem to find anyone mentioning it.

It seems Energia have a condition for their Netatmo offer that says;

"If you move house you cannot move the Netatmo with you, you must leave it on the property as it forms part of the central heating system"

Why is this? If it's 'mine' then shouldn't I be able to do with it as I please if I move? Has anyone moved and brought an Energia Netatmo with them?

emaherx

theintern wrote: »

Random question as I can't seem to find anyone mentioning it.

It seems Energia have a condition for their Netatmo offer that says;

"If you move house you cannot move the Netatmo with you, you must leave it on the property as it forms part of the central heating system"

Why is this? If it's 'mine' then shouldn't I be able to do with it as I please if I move? Has anyone moved and brought an Energia Netatmo with them?

No idea about Netamo, is there a subscription involved? Is it actually yours or leased?

If you move house you'd be expected to leave a working heating system but if the device is yours then just put back in the old controller. If the device is not yours but belonging to Energia then I presume they will install the new one at your new address.

scamalert

theintern wrote: »

Random question as I can't seem to find anyone mentioning it.

It seems Energia have a condition for their Netatmo offer that says;

"If you move house you cannot move the Netatmo with you, you must leave it on the property as it forms part of the central heating system"

Why is this? If it's 'mine' then shouldn't I be able to do with it as I please if I move? Has anyone moved and brought an Energia Netatmo with them?

no you cant, if your setup is anything like hive etc, the hub controls/thermostat is basically tied into all the auto valves etc, it would be like saying big fck u to someone buying/moving into your old place as they would need plumber etc to wire new one in, while in theory the thermostat could be bought and prob synced instead of old one but thing costs like 100-150e itself, its all the remote valves, wiring that cost the most, as in my case its new boiler that was setup and theres no manual temp controls left, aside on off.

Clareman

theintern wrote: »

Random question as I can't seem to find anyone mentioning it.

It seems Energia have a condition for their Netatmo offer that says;

"If you move house you cannot move the Netatmo with you, you must leave it on the property as it forms part of the central heating system"

Why is this? If it's 'mine' then shouldn't I be able to do with it as I please if I move? Has anyone moved and brought an Energia Netatmo with them?

I think it's because Energia claim an energy grant for the installation of it off the government and that grant it tied to the house not the customer.

Type 901

Looking for some advice on a new house and first venture into heating automation.

Current setup in the house (as far as I can make out still learning..) -

Gas Boiler - Baxi 35/60 with Immermat mechanical pin timer in utility
Imit manual thermostat in hall and landing
3 Danfoss motorised values and a HW tank thermostat plumped/wired in hot press/HW tank.
Immersion for HW tank on regular on/off bath/sink switch.

So looks like I have 3 zones already

Downstairs zone covering 7 rads with manual TRVs
Upstairs zone covering 6 rads with manual TRVs
HW zone

Also looking at upgrading current boiler to higher efficiency condensing unit and standards like opentherm might be aid to system.

Have looked at Google Nests as a lot of other devices in the ecosystem but it looks like Evohome or Tado might be a better solution with the TRV integration.

Anyone have view on system to go with? Also don't mind switching supplier if any discounts or benefits - carbon credits from Electric Ireland for example.

championc

For me, Tado all day long. Some posts a few months back with extensive reviews / feedback

There's an Amazon Prime Day upcoming on 13 Oct (I think) or wait until Black Friday / Cyber Monday for Tado kit deals

deezell

Clareman wrote: »

I think it's because Energia claim an energy grant for the installation of it off the government and that grant it tied to the house not the customer.

Spot on. It would be like trying to bring your house number with you, or in the past your phone number (before we had non geographic), or your toilet bowl. Actually, in Holland it was common to take the toilet bowls.
Nonetheless, if your installation is a single WIRED Netatmo, you can replace it with a mechanical one and make off with it and the hub relay which is only used for internet connection when the stat is hardwired to the boiler. If the stat is wireless, its relay hub is wired to the boiler, so replacing it with a cheap wired stat is a bigger job. The issue of grant, ownership etc is another story, plus the stat will increase the energy rating given to the house on the compulsory survey required to sell.
If you leave it you'll have to deregister the device(s) from your app to let the new owner use it.

championc

@Type 901 see post #1942

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113756725&postcount=1942

theintern

deezell wrote: »

Spot on. It would be like trying to bring your house number with you, or in the past your phone number (before we had non geographic), or your toilet bowl. Actually, in Holland it was common to take the toilet bowls.
Nonetheless, if your installation is a single WIRED Netatmo, you can replace it with a mechanical one and make off with it and the hub relay which is only used for internet connection when the stat is hardwired to the boiler. If the stat is wireless, its relay hub is wired to the boiler, so replacing it with a cheap wired stat is a bigger job. The issue of grant, ownership etc is another story, plus the stat will increase the energy rating given to the house on the compulsory survey required to sell.
If you leave it you'll have to deregister the device(s) from your app to let the new owner use it.

Thanks, I figured it was something like that. I might not bother taking Energia up on the offer then and just install one myself. Seems like more hassle than it's worth when I'm in a rental right now and looking to buy soon.

Alkers

Does anyone have any experience of this stuff: https://www.bestheating.ie/milano-connect-wi-fi-gateway-hub-for-smart-radiator-thermostat-81993

We have a combi boiler and six rads with trvs that I want to be able to control (seperate to hall (where heating thermostat is) and bathrooms).

This is mainly as now that I'm working from home, I want to have the heating on in the office and not the rest of the house all day. To do this currently I'd have to turn off all the trvs each morning and turn them back in the evening.

I'm not particularly interested in replacing our current thermostat which is a simple timer set to different temperatures for times of the day and meets our needs perfectly and I can't see much benefit in having the trvs being able to tell the boiler to fire up once we have the main thermostat setup correctly?

I can't find any cheaper solution but still 50e for a hub and 180e for 6 trvs seems quite an expensive fix! Thoughts?

Type 901

championc wrote: »

@Type 901 see post #1942

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=113756725&postcount=1942

Thanks for that! Been reading back through the thread/forum but not seen that post yet. Really good coverage of what needs doing. Think I'll be covered for initial steps in relation to the zone valves and HW tank stat, just need to check all working correctly.

My understanding I will need the following -
V3 wired thermostat starter pack
Additional wired thermostat
Starter pack comes with 2 TRVs and will need combination of multiple packs to ensure all rads covered.

In relation to the setup is it correct that one stat will control say downstairs zone and HW with another stat controlling the upstairs zone. From the Tado support link (option 3) it looks like I might need the wireless extension for the 2nd zone even though wired currently?

https://support.tado.com/en/articles/3481812-how-does-tado-control-a-multi-zone-radiator-heating-system

scamalert

Alkers wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of this stuff: https://www.bestheating.ie/milano-connect-wi-fi-gateway-hub-for-smart-radiator-thermostat-81993

We have a combi boiler and six rads with trvs that I want to be able to control (seperate to hall (where heating thermostat is) and bathrooms).

This is mainly as now that I'm working from home, I want to have the heating on in the office and not the rest of the house all day. To do this currently I'd have to turn off all the trvs each morning and turn them back in the evening.

I'm not particularly interested in replacing our current thermostat which is a simple timer set to different temperatures for times of the day and meets our needs perfectly and I can't see much benefit in having the trvs being able to tell the boiler to fire up once we have the main thermostat setup correctly?

I can't find any cheaper solution but still 50e for a hub and 180e for 6 trvs seems quite an expensive fix! Thoughts?

no expert, but doubt its even possible some people have 2 zone heating, so in my limited understanding heating pipes would span say across ground foor and separate set over 1st floor allowing to have 2 separate zones controled by temps. dont imagine ones house would have separate pipes going into diff rads, so at best you could have one valve for ground floor but it would still heat entire floor not specific room, that is if theres 2 separate zones.

could be wrong and someone might know better.

Alkers

scamalert wrote: »

no expert, but doubt its even possible some people have 2 zone heating, so in my limited understanding heating pipes would span say across ground foor and separate set over 1st floor allowing to have 2 separate zones controled by temps. dont imagine ones house would have separate pipes going into diff rads, so at best you could have one valve for ground floor but it would still heat entire floor not specific room, that is if theres 2 separate zones.

could be wrong and someone might know better.

Heating is all just one zone, which I'd be happy with if I can just turn on and off rads via app, timer etc. Currently I just do it manually, which is a pain.

deezell

Alkers wrote: »

Heating is all just one zone, which I'd be happy with if I can just turn on and off rads via app, timer etc. Currently I just do it manually, which is a pain.

You're on the right path, six wireless TRVs allow you turn off all bar the room you're in and any other rads that are not TRV equipped. Better still, you can automate this with a timed schedule, to happen every working day without daily switching on and off.
I seem to recall the Milano hub from way back, its good value at €50 and €30 per TRV. Do a bit of research on the capabilities of the controlling app, see if can work with google, alexa etc. With the more popular smart trv systems, it would be trivial to set up a full time and temperature schedule for the unwanted rooms, they could even be grouped under one schedule.

championc

Alkers wrote: »

Does anyone have any experience of this stuff: https://www.bestheating.ie/milano-connect-wi-fi-gateway-hub-for-smart-radiator-thermostat-81993

We have a combi boiler and six rads with trvs that I want to be able to control (seperate to hall (where heating thermostat is) and bathrooms).

This is mainly as now that I'm working from home, I want to have the heating on in the office and not the rest of the house all day. To do this currently I'd have to turn off all the trvs each morning and turn them back in the evening.

I'm not particularly interested in replacing our current thermostat which is a simple timer set to different temperatures for times of the day and meets our needs perfectly and I can't see much benefit in having the trvs being able to tell the boiler to fire up once we have the main thermostat setup correctly?

I can't find any cheaper solution but still 50e for a hub and 180e for 6 trvs seems quite an expensive fix! Thoughts?

You could just go for 6 Tado TRV's and an internet bridge. You should be able to get a starter pack with two TRV's and then a Quad Pack

championc

scamalert wrote: »

no expert, but doubt its even possible some people have 2 zone heating, so in my limited understanding heating pipes would span say across ground foor and separate set over 1st floor allowing to have 2 separate zones controled by temps. dont imagine ones house would have separate pipes going into diff rads, so at best you could have one valve for ground floor but it would still heat entire floor not specific room, that is if theres 2 separate zones.

could be wrong and someone might know better.

Tado gives control of every TRV so it essentially turns every room into it's own zone

deezell

Type 901 wrote: »

Looking for some advice on a new house and first venture into heating automation.

Current setup in the house (as far as I can make out still learning..) -
ò
Gas Boiler - Baxi 35/60 with Immermat mechanical pin timer in utility

Imit manual thermostat in hall and landing

3 Danfoss motorised values and a HW tank thermostat plumped/wired in hot press/HW tank.

Immersion for HW tank on regular on/off bath/sink switch.

So looks like I have 3 zones already
Downstairs zone covering 7 rads with manual TRVs

Upstairs zone covering 6 rads with manual TRVs

HW zone

Also looking at upgrading current boiler to higher efficiency condensing unit and standards like opentherm might be aid to system.

Have looked at Google Nests as a lot of other devices in the ecosystem but it looks like Evohome or Tado might be a better solution with the TRV integration.

Anyone have view on system to go with? Also don't mind switching supplier if any discounts or benefits - carbon credits from Electric Ireland for example.

A word first on Opentherm. There are very limited options for controlling a boiler with Opentherm modulation when you have multiple zones and their stats. You can't physically combine the OT signals from stats or their wireless relays like you can combine the raw live boiler call voltage. With Tado, the ext kit provides at most OT control of the boiler for 1 CH zone and direct HW from a system boiler. For a HW cylinder system with S plan zone valve switching, its not clear if Tado can open the CH and HW zone valves while calling the boiler via OT terminals. Iirc, the mains relays in the ext kit don't close if the Tado is configured to address the boiler via OT. Add a second CH zone and tado stat and valve, and you have a second stat trying to send OT boiler control signals, but these can't be simply combined by joining the wires.
Afaik, the high end evohome can handle this with individal standard zone valves. EPH have also developed a system where the individual zone stat/receivers wirelessly communicate and a single receiver addresses the boiler for HW or CH calls using OT, up to 12 zones, while at the same time the receivers directly switch their live mains motorised zone valves.
If your zoning is entirely achieved by smart TRVs, then OT becomes an option as all TRVs will address the boiler via a single hub or receiver. If there is a zone valve for HW, its OK to send a VOLT FREE ( very important) contact closure signal, a short circuit effectively, to the boiler OT terminals. The OT software reads this as a straight boiler on request, and will heat until the HW zone relay opens, reverting to OT control of CH if a stat or TRV requests heat.
So in recommending a system, Evo or EPH if you absolutely want OT. If you want a simple life and boiler calling, Tado does a great job of calling the boilers using its own modulation algorithm, finely turning the boiler on/off as target CH temperature approaches, with full on when the call is from its HW timer. TRVs can be added also
For a no nonsense easily installed 3 zone smart system with TRV ability the Drayton wiser kit 3 is great value for money, can do OT subject to the constraints described earlier, and all stats are wireless so you can relocate away from your old wired stat locations. Currently only €207 from Screfix.ie for the complete kit, €52 for optional TRVs.
https://www.screwfix.ie/p/drayton-heating-hot-water-3-channel-wiser-thermostat-control-kit/4081v

Type 901

Thanks for that deezell, really good information on opentherm. I could only find information on the modulation standard and some on the manufacturer specific eBus systems but not the interaction with a smart control system outside the boiler companies own offerings. OT is not a need for the new boiler, just if it had any value add - main goal is just a more efficient condensing unit.

The Drayton Wiser system looks really interesting aswell, near all of the Tado functionality but at a lower price and no dependence on an internet connection. Some reviews mention the noise of the TRV motors is higher than competitors but can't imagine theres much of a difference, just one I need to consider for kids bedrooms. Also ensure I have no wifi dead spots which could impact connection stability. Overall very promising.

Getting a quote from Electric Ireland as part of a potential switch for new boiler and evohome installed, just to see costs but think the Drayton might be a winner.

Debub

Hi - does anyone have recommendations for an electrician/plumber in the West Cork area to help me with smart home heating installation please? Having difficulty in getting a competent person

thanks

deezell

Debub wrote: »

Hi - does anyone have recommendations for an electrician/plumber in the West Cork area to help me with smart home heating installation please? Having difficulty in getting a competent person

thanks

I suggest you split the job, decide if you want plumbed zones, TRV valves fitted, etc, and talk to an 'ordinary' plumber about pipes, don't mention Smart stuff. Once you have a zoned system either by motorised zone valve or by TRV priced up, let him install that. You can lock open TRVs and zone valves into a single zone while waiting for your smart stat wire up, and you're ready for a sparks to wire in a smart zone controller, stats or relays, and if it's TRVs you went with you can pop smart ones on yourself.
If you already have some zone valves, ordinary wall stat, a way to heat HW without the rads coming on, you might not need any plumbing at all, other than a few smart TRVs, and you may already have the correct radiator valves for these. Plumbers who fully understand the concept of smart heating are scarce, a pity as it's just the same control wiring from their point of view, the smart activity is virtual in software.

Debub

deezell wrote: »

I suggest you split the job, decide if you want plumbed zones, TRV valves fitted, etc, and talk to an 'ordinary' plumber about pipes, don't mention Smart stuff. Once you have a zoned system either by motorised zone valve or by TRV priced up, let him install that. You can lock open TRVs and zone valves into a single zone while waiting for your smart stat wire up, and you're ready for a sparks to wire in a smart zone controller, stats or relays, and if it's TRVs you went with you can pop smart ones on yourself.
If you already have some zone valves, ordinary wall stat, a way to heat HW without the rads coming on, you might not need any plumbing at all, other than a few smart TRVs, and you may already have the correct radiator valves for these. Plumbers who fully understand the concept of smart heating are scarce, a pity as it's just the same control wiring from their point of view, the smart activity is virtual in software.

Hey deezell - actually I got all the details off you only some time ago (as attached). I need to get 2 motoroized valves installed (one new) for a 2+1 zone (2h + 1hw), want to go with the Drayton Wiser 3 zone. Then I need the stats.

deezell

Debub wrote: »

Hey deezell - actually I got all the details off you only some time ago (as attached). I need to get 2 motoroized valves installed (one new) for a 2+1 zone (2h + 1hw), want to go with the Drayton Wiser 3 zone. Then I need the stats.

Well proceed with the plumbing, when installed lock the valves open, no change to your system, then get the Drayton kit 3 controller, and have a sparks wire it up to the zine valves, and from the zobe valve relays to the boiler. Unlock the valves and test. Stats are wireless, so minimal wiring.

maxamillius

I have basic heating setup, oil boiler, thermostat on wall, i turn CH on by flicking switch on boiler, CH pump is turned on/off using mechanical stat on wall. If i leave the stat down and the pump off, the water will eventually get warm using gravity.

My question is, can i use the Drayton wiser system? At the moment I don’t have any TRVs installed but i am going to get a plumber to sort this next month. If Drayton wiser is a runner, would anyone have a wiring diagram for it?

Cheers,

championc

maxamillius wrote: »

I have basic heating setup, oil boiler, thermostat on wall, i turn CH on by flicking switch on boiler, CH pump is turned on/off using mechanical stat on wall. If i leave the stat down and the pump off, the water will eventually get warm using gravity.

My question is, can i use the Drayton wiser system? At the moment I don’t have any TRVs installed but i am going to get a plumber to sort this next month. If Drayton wiser is a runner, would anyone have a wiring diagram for it?

Cheers,

One thing with going the Tado route is that you supply them with your boiler make and model, and they then tell you the connections to be made. So Tado very much promote DIY installations.

Starter kits and quad packs of TRV's are always coming up on Amazon

graememk

championc wrote: »

One thing with going the Tado route is that you supply them with your boiler make and model, and they then tell you the connections to be made. So Tado very much promote DIY installations.

Starter kits and quad packs of TRV's are always coming up on Amazon

With the Tado system, does it have to be hooked up to the boiler or can it just be set to open and shut valves on a timer/ thermostat? (Solid fuel heating.. well there is oil as a backup but the tanks been empty since the spring lol.)

Is there a thermostat or thermometer in the TRV's too?

Grant Stevens

Just an update. Electric Ireland have been to assess. They are way too expensive. I have a system with oil burner and 14 rads. Simple on/ off switch, no alternative means of control. There is a single coil cylinder in the hot press, no summer valve. We also have an insert stove that's connected to the system via back boiler setup.

The stove will have to be decommissioned. I can understand that, but the price we're being quoted for the system is ridiculous. I feel we're being had. I can buy 14 Evo Home TRVs and control unit for approx £1,000 on Amazon UK. I think I may be able to get someone separate to do the boiler decom.

Question: How much work is involved in installing a 'summer valve' on our system, giving independent control over the hot water? Is there pipe work required at the boiler, the hot press or both? The EI rep that priced the job told me there'll be no pipe work involved which leads me to believe that the only way to heat the water 'independently' in the tank is by shutting off all the rad valves? Would this be what their intention is? That's hardly an 'independent' control over water situaion?

If someone could tell me whether installing a summer valve is difficult given our setup, I'd rather ditch EI and go with independent plumber & sparks.

I can purchase the system on Amazon as in mentioned. The plumber can then change 14 x valves to the type that works with the smart TRVs. I just need to figure out how get a plumber to do the summer valve bit. Maybe someone here can let me know if that's a big/ messy/ difficult job.