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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

[Deleted User]

Continued from here
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057953711/251
All Ireland Senior XV related talk here.

MOD: Bear in mind this thread is starting during the World Cup window and the zero tolerance policy is in force. Trolling will be rewarded with an instant ban. For the duration of the tournament any mention of Zebo in this thread will not be permitted, it is just dragging current Ireland squad talk off topic.

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Guinness RFC

Anyone else think overtraining might be an issue? In Ireland we rely on the same core players for international and European rugby. The pressure to constantly perform is there for these same players all the time. Sustaining that lifestyle and work ethic must be physically and mentally draining. I know they’ve just returned from 6 month hiatus but I think it holds true.

In England they have such depth that one player drops off for a 6 month injury they replace him with someone arguably better. They seem to be more relaxed and not as tight as the Irish players. I think fatigue may be a factor.

New Zealand excel here - they sustain those high levels of pressure, lifestyle, expectation and small population size and overcome them time after time.

[Deleted User]

Leinster conceded 7 scrum penalties and won none, that's why they lost the game, the rest is just noise.

irishbucsfan

AdamD wrote: »

Leinster conceded 7 scrum penalties and won none, that's why they lost the game, the rest is just noise.

Saracens had the put-in to 13 scrums. Leinster had 4 (and won all of them I believe).

The game is far more nuanced than you seem to believe it is. Leinster's half backs were totally outplayed by Wigglesworth and that allowed the Saracens' scrum dominance to impact the scoreboard. If Leinster hadn't completely overplayed the ball in their own half and Saracens had made those mistakes, the scrum penalties wouldn't have had such an impact.

[Deleted User]

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Saracens had the put-in to 13 scrums. Leinster had 4 (and won all of them I believe).

The game is far more nuanced than you seem to believe it is. Leinster's half backs were totally outplayed by Wigglesworth and that allowed the Saracens' scrum dominance to impact the scoreboard. If Leinster hadn't completely overplayed the ball in their own half and Saracens had made those mistakes, the scrum penalties wouldn't have had such an impact.

The game is usually quite nuanced yes, but 7-0 on scrum penalties pretty much throws everything else out the window. The gulf in class everywhere else would need to be massive to overcome that

irishbucsfan

AdamD wrote: »

The game is usually quite nuanced yes, but 7-0 on scrum penalties pretty much throws everything else out the window. The gulf in class everywhere else would need to be massive to overcome that

They had that gulf in class on their own put in. Leinster gave them the put in to more than 3x the number of scrums that Saracens conceded to Leinster. Turn those tables, which the actually quality of either scrum is irrelevant to, and what you're saying doesn't hold true at all.

Put it another way. Saracens won a penalty on ~50% of their own put in. If they had the put in 4 times, that would have been two penalties in the entire game. The gulf in class absolutely does not need to be massive to overcome that.

The idea that only the scrum was the problem is very easily dismissed.

UAEguy2020

Guinness RFC wrote: »

Anyone else think overtraining might be an issue? In Ireland we rely on the same core players for international and European rugby. The pressure to constantly perform is there for these same players all the time. Sustaining that lifestyle and work ethic must be physically and mentally draining. I know they’ve just returned from 6 month hiatus but I think it holds true.

In England they have such depth that one player drops off for a 6 month injury they replace him with someone arguably better. They seem to be more relaxed and not as tight as the Irish players. I think fatigue may be a factor.

New Zealand excel here - they sustain those high levels of pressure, lifestyle, expectation and small population size and overcome them time after time.

I wouldnt say overtriaining but I would say over coached. That again is why I have been relativly happy from what ive seen from Farrell's Ireland so far as you can clearly see the players are much happier and dont look as stressed.

What New Zealand get absolutly right is they play exactly whats infront of them and by doing that they dont have to worry about getting smashed upfront as they can just kick the ball around and play percentages rugby.

OldRio

Pascal Gaüzère to ref Ireland v England.

Is there anything to be said for another Mass.

KIB4Life

typhoony wrote: »

still think he's been the 2nd best and consistent scrum-half behind Murray over the last 5 years, was unlucky to get injured and it took time for him to replace Blade as first choice.

Anytime Marmion was called upon he never let the side down. Coming on in the wing against Australia, his performance in the win over England in 17 and the victory over New Zealand. He was unfairly mistreated by Schmidt and he should have gone to the World Cup. I think Gibson Park should get game time in the Six Nations and November to see is he up to international standard I definitely would have him over McGrath.

UAEguy2020

I’m worried that we have Barnes as the ref for the France game considering there is an incentive on England to have France win that match.

OldRio

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I’m worried that we have Barnes as the ref for the France game considering there is an incentive on England to have France win that match.

What? Seriously?

UAEguy2020

OldRio wrote: »

What? Seriously?

I know right, who'd have thought!

shootermacg

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I know right, who'd have thought!

Barnes has turned into a great ref. He used to be a penalty machine, but he's since relaxed and lets the game flow when possible. He seems to be enjoying himself these days and it shows in his decisions. Never was afraid to make the big calls either.

[Deleted User]

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

I know right, who'd have thought!

You. And that's it.

bilston

shootermacg wrote: »

Barnes has turned into a great ref. He used to be a penalty machine, but he's since relaxed and lets the game flow when possible. He seems to be enjoying himself these days and it shows in his decisions. Never was afraid to make the big calls either.

He is empathetic with the players. I think most players appreciate that.

When he first started he wasn't like that. But, like anyone, he has matured and got better over the years. He may be the best in the business at the minute.

UAEguy2020

shootermacg wrote: »

Barnes has turned into a great ref. He used to be a penalty machine, but he's since relaxed and lets the game flow when possible. He seems to be enjoying himself these days and it shows in his decisions. Never was afraid to make the big calls either.

He is a great ref and under normal circumstances I wouldn’t mind him being the referee for this match, just under these circumstances it would have been better to have someone like Nigel Owens incharge where the result doesn’t matter to him. If neither Ireland win or France beat Ireland by a similar margin to England beating Italy than England win the championship.

It wasn’t just him as a referee but he just came across as really arrogant stuck up person that you could really talk to whereas nowadays he is very open, humble and easy to talk to on the pitch. Overall him and Nigel Owens are the best referees out there but like I said, my reasons for not wanting him as the ref are little to do with his referring abilities.

UAEguy2020

Interested Observer wrote: »

You. And that's it.

Look at the points table & the permutations and stop being a twat.

OneLungDavy

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

He is a great ref and under normal circumstances I wouldn’t mind him being the referee for this match, just under these circumstances it would have been better to have someone like Nigel Owens incharge where the result doesn’t matter to him. If neither Ireland win or France beat Ireland by a similar margin to England beating Italy than England win the championship.

It wasn’t just him as a referee but he just came across as really arrogant stuck up person that you could really talk to whereas nowadays he is very open, humble and easy to talk to on the pitch. Overall him and Nigel Owens are the best referees out there but like I said, my reasons for not wanting him as the ref are little to do with his referring abilities.

It's an interesting point, he's an open England fan and very passionate about the sport in general. But don't France have a chance at the title too? His bias against both teams could cancel each other out

Paul Smeenus

Is there a ref in rugby who isn't a fan of their national team? No-one refs because they are dispassionate about the sport.

OldRio

UAEguy2020 wrote: »

Look at the points table & the permutations and stop being a twat.

And with that the button is pressed.

shootermacg

So I hear Donnacha Ryan kept Maro quite. It's been how many years since he left Ireland?
We need to take a step back and realize that younger isn't always better and some players get better with age. Not talking about backs really, they get worse...except for Handsome Rob.
Ireland could have had Ryan for at least another 3 years if he's been given a central contact.

The Lost Sheep

shootermacg wrote: »

So I hear Donnacha Ryan kept Maro quite. It's been how many years since he left Ireland?
We need to take a step back and realize that younger isn't always better and some players get better with age. Not talking about backs really, they get worse...except for Handsome Rob.
Ireland could have had Ryan for at least another 3 years if he's been given a central contact.

He didnt get contract he probably should have but wanted to go abroad and he was 33 when he left.

OneLungDavy

shootermacg wrote: »

So I hear Donnacha Ryan kept Maro quite.

If only player performances were that easy to decipher :rolleyes:

Buer

shootermacg wrote: »

So I hear Donnacha Ryan kept Maro quite. It's been how many years since he left Ireland?
We need to take a step back and realize that younger isn't always better and some players get better with age. Not talking about backs really, they get worse...except for Handsome Rob.
Ireland could have had Ryan for at least another 3 years if he's been given a central contact.

Ryan had a good game. He didn't keep Itoje quiet. Itoje was very good again but the Saracens team as a unit were clearly struggling to each the same intensity and pace again. The Racing pack did a number on them. Bird was brilliant alongside Ryan. They also emptied their bench at the right moment.

Owens refereed him also and didn't let him influence things as much, penalising him a couple of times.

Ryan would have been a very useful player to have around Ireland for the last few years. Racing manage him very well though. This was his 50th start in 3 full seasons. I think he has flourished in the challenge and the new environment. I'm not sure Irish rugby would have gotten the same quality out of him.

They weren't getting the best out of him before he left, to be honest. Whilst Ryan would have been of use, would he had been in the Irish side? He wasn't in it consistently before he left and that was before James Ryan emerged. They won the GS the year after he left. I think he'd have been great to have around the camp but, as much as people dismiss older players, we are just as bad for automatically elevating those who play outside of Ireland.

shootermacg

Buer wrote: »

Ryan had a good game. He didn't keep Itoje quiet. Itoje was very good again but the Saracens team as a unit were clearly struggling to each the same intensity and pace again. The Racing pack did a number on them. Bird was brilliant alongside Ryan. They also emptied their bench at the right moment.

Owens refereed him also and didn't let him influence things as much, penalising him a couple of times.

Ryan would have been a very useful player to have around Ireland for the last few years. Racing manage him very well though. This was his 50th start in 3 full seasons. I think he has flourished in the challenge and the new environment. I'm not sure Irish rugby would have gotten the same quality out of him.

They weren't getting the best out of him before he left, to be honest. Whilst Ryan would have been of use, would he had been in the Irish side? He wasn't in it consistently before he left and that was before James Ryan emerged. They won the GS the year after he left. I think he'd have been great to have around the camp but, as much as people dismiss older players, we are just as bad for automatically elevating those who play outside of Ireland.

I think seconds rows have a higher shelf life and this needs to be considered and the fact that it wasn't is more a reflection of the selectors.
No doubt Ryan would have been the better player to Toner over the last three years.

Way too may show pony admirers in Ireland. You really want a dogged soldier in the trenches, Ryan was exactly that. Joe for all his great points was keen to jettison Ryan...and Toner actually.

There are very few players (not counting South Africans) with dog in them left in the Irish team.

I think Leinster has flattered to deceive, plenty of good players, well drilled (we'll come back to that later), but zero world class operators.

This has fed into the international team, we've got a team of average internationals, great for the Pro14, not so good when it comes to the business end and have to face up to real players. I mean come on, how is Jordan Larmour an international?
Healy is a passenger, Porter is an international loose-head playing as a tight-head.

I've never rated Garry Ringrose.....ever. Henshaw is a full back playing 12. Dorris is about 10kg short of a back row.

Sexton is so far past it it's laughable, sure he is able to look good when every other part of the team is better than the other team, but when the pressure is on, he's kicking restarts out on the full. Or fumbling balls behind his own line.

Stockdale..I know, lets keep waiting for the guy to become more than average.

Peter o'Mahony, **** off and get gud.

There are plenty of old and irrelevant players in green. Donnacha Ryan isn't part of that group, he's happy doing the same job he's done for 10 years in France.

People saying Leinster missing a bit of dog, I totally agree, there's no dog like an old dog!

Finally.. my point is, people think youth is the answer, sure it is, just not in the second row.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y8uxJleq20&ab_channel=SquidgeRugby

SA had an answer to Japan...yueah...we'll just break them..how many do we break? All of them.

Buer

Sober up.

mfceiling

Fcuk me what did I just read?

thomond2006

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GampCzWSW3A

UAEguy2020

10kg short of a back row... so the likes of Kieran Read and Taulupe Faletau aren’t back rows?

Guinness RFC

shootermacg wrote: »

I think seconds rows have a higher shelf life and this needs to be considered and the fact that it wasn't is more a reflection of the selectors.
No doubt Ryan would have been the better player to Toner over the last three years.

Way too may show pony admirers in Ireland. You really want a dogged soldier in the trenches, Ryan was exactly that. Joe for all his great points was keen to jettison Ryan...and Toner actually.

There are very few players (not counting South Africans) with dog in them left in the Irish team.

I think Leinster has flattered to deceive, plenty of good players, well drilled (we'll come back to that later), but zero world class operators.

This has fed into the international team, we've got a team of average internationals, great for the Pro14, not so good when it comes to the business end and have to face up to real players. I mean come on, how is Jordan Larmour an international?
Healy is a passenger, Porter is an international loose-head playing as a tight-head.

I've never rated Garry Ringrose.....ever. Henshaw is a full back playing 12. Dorris is about 10kg short of a back row.

Sexton is so far past it it's laughable, sure he is able to look good when every other part of the team is better than the other team, but when the pressure is on, he's kicking restarts out on the full. Or fumbling balls behind his own line.

Stockdale..I know, lets keep waiting for the guy to become more than average.

Peter o'Mahony, **** off and get gud.

There are plenty of old and irrelevant players in green. Donnacha Ryan isn't part of that group, he's happy doing the same job he's done for 10 years in France.

People saying Leinster missing a bit of dog, I totally agree, there's no dog like an old dog!

Finally.. my point is, people think youth is the answer, sure it is, just not in the second row.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y8uxJleq20&ab_channel=SquidgeRugby

SA had an answer to Japan...yueah...we'll just break them..how many do we break? All of them.

A most reasonable and accurate depiction of where Ireland are at than most other posts I’ve seen on this website in a long time if not a little exaggerated.

Don’t mind the one or two people always saying back the youth particularly one on Leinsterfans. He’s blinded by loyalty and the young second rows whilst very promising individually as a unit together would lack the ballast to be international class. We don’t need a second row who has speed, a break or good hands primarily. As a secondary skill they can be very useful but primarily you want your second row to be a big unit who is good at carrying, line outs and hitting opposition players. Everything else is just gravy.

As to players with dog in them I’m going to stick my neck out and say POM is one. He always comes good at pressure points in big games with a jackal or lineout steal. That is the one point I disagree with you on.

BonnieSituation

bilston wrote: »

He is empathetic with the players. I think most players appreciate that.

When he first started he wasn't like that. But, like anyone, he has matured and got better over the years. He may be the best in the business at the minute.

He absolutely is. One of the things that annoyed me about England getting to the RWC final, obviously, outside of being in Tokyo when they were in the RWC final was the fact that Barnes wouldn't get to ref it and he was retiring at that point don't forget.

He's by far the best ref in world rugby these days and the maturity and improvement that has come over the years is staggering.

When you see the state of the decisions that Owens made today it couldn't be clearer.

I mean, I'd take Barnes reffing us v England before I would take Owens reffing us v Wa... anyone.